Are the lessons of Vietnam relevant to Iraq?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Poll question: Are the lessons of Vietnam relevant to Iraq?

[eridani]

1. You left out yes and no

Yes--both were unnecessary and harmed our actual interests. Both are characterized by a complete lack of understanding of the cultures (and even the languages of the people) we are/were stomping all over. Both are premised on the assumption that armed force trumps winning politically. We can't pull out, what about our 'credibility?' applies to both. Tremendous long-term infrastructure, cultural heritage and ecological damage in both cases. Neither country was in any way a military threat to us.

No--Iraq is a straightforward resource grab in a region that is strategically important. Vietnam was more like slipping into an imperial role a little at a time, like a frog in a pot very slowly brought to a boil, in an area that didn't really have much in the way of natural resources. The rest of the world was unanimously against Iraq from the start, and there has been far more domestic opposition, right from the start. No one paid much attention to Vietnam for years. Compare a couple of lone votes against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution with 23 Senate and 133 House votes against the Iraq war authorization. Vietnam actually had a native functioning state apparatus left over from French administration and Japanese collaborators--we destroyed the Iraqi state and there still isn't anything like one in place. Vietnam had a comparatively unified resistance of long standing, with a large base of people who had successfully fought against the Japanese. There are dozens of groups with dozens of conflicting visions in the Iraqi resistance, with no sign of a unified alternative vision ever emerging. Despite issues of a Catholic ruling class among a Buddhist majority, religion wasn't anywhere near the issue in Vietnam that it is in Iraq. The US population is far more upset with the first 1000 deaths in Iraq that it was with the first 10,000 in Vietnam. With modern information technology, everything about the Iraq war is on steroids--it was years before My Lai came out as opposed to Abu Ghraib. The world's eyes on everything have forced the US to back off in Najaf and Fallujah--massive civilian slaughter went on for years in Vietnam without anyone knowing.

Better analogies for Iraq situation are probably the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, and the post WW II French colonialism in Algeria.

[JI7]

2. yes, but at the same time differences should be acknowledged

such as the vietnamese are much more united as a people than the iraqis are and other things.

[JI7]

3. i think the best lesson is the leadership

that the leadership was not truthful and intentionally lied and mislead. that the leadership needs to be held accountable.

[IndianaGreen]

4. Nixon's "peace with honor" sounds like "stay the course"

and the results will be same: an unwillingness to admit defeat and failure to bring the troops home immediately and unconditionally.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Now if you can just find this imaginary person saying 'stay the course'

you'll have your Nixon.

[IndianaGreen]

6. "we will persevere in that mission."

MEET THE PRESS

Sunday, April 18, 2004

GUEST: Sen. John Kerry, D-MA, presidential candidate

MODERATOR/PANELIST: Tim Russert, NBC News

MR. RUSSERT: But do you have a plan to deal with Iraq? This is what you...

SEN. KERRY: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: This is what you wrote in The Washington Post last Tuesday: "Our country has committed to help the Iraqis build a stable, peaceful and pluralistic society. No matter who is elected president in November, we will persevere in that mission."

SEN. KERRY: Yes, we will.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4772030

Don't stay the course, Senator

Former war hero and protester John Kerry knows escalation in Iraq will lead to disaster. Confronting Bush's war policy should be the key to his campaign.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Robert Scheer

April 28, 2004 | "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

That was the crucial question Vietnam combat veteran John Kerry put to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee 33 years ago, and it is the question that should be at the center of his presidential campaign.

Today, however, Kerry seems unable to admit that the war he voted to authorize in Iraq has been such a disaster, arguing only that we must "stay the course." Why, when that was the tragic advice from the best and brightest in the Lyndon Johnson administration?

In proposing a long-overdue appeal to the United Nations and NATO to make them real partners in the rebirth of Iraq and take -- in his words -- the "Made in America" label off what has become a very unpopular occupation, Kerry gets some things right that the president has gotten so wrong. Unfortunately, however, the Democrats' heir apparent is still taking far too much solace in the conventional wisdom, which brought us the sorrows of the Vietnam War.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:i6H118ECvEMJ:www.salon.com/opinion/scheer/2004/04/28/kerry/+kerry%2Bstay+the+course%2Biraq&hl=en

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. In other wprds, it really was imaginary.

I note that the person you quote in the title of your post is Tim Russert.

[IndianaGreen]

11. The voters got the message

only a handful of people on this board persist in their denial. You don't see Kerry endorsing Kucinich's call for an immediate withdrawal, do you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. I'm sorry but

I don't consider your opinion of what 'the voters' think to worth anything at all.

Since you are clearly speaking about something that you actually have no more knowledge of than I.

[jonnyblitz]

10. yup. sad. n/t

[MrSandman]

7. Both can be classified as counterinsurgency warfare...

I am not aware of the rate of success between traditional forces and non-traditional (guerrilla) counter insurgents.

It seems battles are won, but not the wars.

[cheshire]

8. I think it shows some have not learned from history.