Honestly: If Dean were on the ticket, he'd be leading Bush.

[Michigander4Dean]

Or at least he'd be trailing by less than 11%.

Don't get me wrong: I fully support Kerry and Edwards. They are our best shot at saving America.

But I don't believe they are fighting back hard enough. In a Bush v. Dean race, the gloves would be off. Dean would be speaking out about Bush at every opportunity, while also talking about reforming the political atmosphere in Washington.

Of course, CNN and Fox saw threats in a Dean nomination, so they overplayed his scream. :eyes:

But I digress.

[JPJones]

Bushco would have torn Dean limb from limb, too n/t

[qwertyMike]

3. No

They play the same Black & White game

[Dookus]

1. Yeah

that approach was how Dean got the nomination... oh wait...

[Nimble_Idea]

2. lol sure.

::eyes::

[grytpype]

4. Oh, bullshit.

The election would have been declared over by now if Dean was the candidate.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

5. Dean would be wondering what hit him right about now...

...and would STILL be wondering long after the election was over.

[ibegurpard]

6. Just as Kerry wasn't immune, neither would Dean have been

I get irritated by people who think that the candidate they were supporting would somehow have been magically immune to Bush dirty politics. Some Kerry people were suggesting the same thing during the primaries and it pissed me off then.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

14. Yes but Dean would have fought back on every charge.

[Dookus]

17. Yes

angrily and crazily, like he did in the primaries. If it didn't work then, why would it work now?

[liberalnurse]

39. He was not crazied......

He was and is an advocate for the people. He has moxy!

[Dookus]

46. Yeah, Moxy

and a buck fifty will get a coffee at starbucks. He needed votes. He didn't get 'em.

[madfloridian]

54. Do you want my Iowa chose our nominee spiel?

I am just about in the mood to post the primaries chart...showing that MOST of us never had a chance to vote for him when it counted.

I have the articles telling how Terry Mac moved the primaries up to get through so the nominee could be bashed longer.

He may well have gotten more than enough votes if FL, NY, and CA had been able to vote for him. You know, those 3 states with large populations??

[redstateblues]

100. Yeah " I Have A Scream" -Dean Got His Ass Kicked

[cheshire]

7. Of course that is just your opinion and you know what they say about them.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. Clark/Dean

:kick:

[Bread and Circus]

98. Shit, I haven't seen a post like that in months....

good times...sigh.

[quinnox]

9. It might be premature to count Kerry out quite yet

I remember they said the same thing when Kerry was down by 30 points in New Hampshire.

Kerry might surprise many people in the end.

[digno dave]

106. Can't count him out, but in span of 1 month he went from betting favorite

to solid underdog.
The coordinated attack of SBVs, stammering resonses, amphetamine laced RNCs and no $$ spent on ads can do that to a candidate.

[sundancekid]

10. if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its a$$ when it went hoppity hop TOO

[faithnotgreed]

11. i hope youll feel better very soon. since you "fully support kerry

edwards"

many are understandably going through some rough times during this campaign. and many understandably need to vent. so i will assume you are doing both these things and - since you do fully support our team - that you will feel much better soon.

[GOPAgainstGW]

12. Bull!!!! - Dean is Not Presidential Material Anymore Than Bush Is!!!

[MuseRider]

13. Honestly?

NO.

[Bluzmann57]

15. Senator John Kerry is the Democratic nominee

so will all the sore loser Dean people please please get over it? Enough is enough. We Democrats must be united, or we have no chance. The 11 point lead will shrink soon enough and if we keep working our tails off, Kerry should win and we may be able to take back the House and/or Senate.

[Michigander4Dean]

That's like saying

'Bush is the President and we should get over the 2000 theft.' I don't know of a single DUer (I'm sure there are some) who says we should get over that. By saying 'get over it,' you are playing into Bush's and the GOP's hands.

[Dookus]

35. There's a slight difference

Bush didn't win. Kerry did.

Dean lost, and he lost spectacularly. He would lose spectacularly to Bush, too. Why? He's a spectacular loser.

[Michigander4Dean]

50. "Spectacular losers" don't win five gubernatorial elections

or two elections to the state Legislature, or three elections to the Lieutenant Governorship of Vermont.

[greenohio]

111. Dude there are only 650K people in Vermont

They shouldn't even call it a governor. He was more like the mayor of Vermont. Its like the mayor of Cincinnati running for president.

[madfloridian]

56. You want my Iowa spiel?

You do know that NY, CA, and FL never got to vote for Dean when it counted. Many other states did not either. Criticize Dean but don't say he couldn't have gotten the votes.

We have been this route before, and there is no arguing with the facts.

We did NOT get to vote for him when it counted. Not is FL, NY, CA and many other states.

[madfloridian]

69. These types of posts are the reason I will no longer try to make peace.

You know I have tried. This guy named Howard Dean was NO LOSER. He is doing more for the Democratic Party than anyone else right now. He is standing up for Kerry and supporting candidates.

Shame on you.

[emulatorloo]

16. THE MISUNDERESTIMATION OF JOHN KERRY - Esquire Magazine 06.04

is worth reading

The Misunderestimation of John Kerry
Beware of this man. He's won every race that he was supposed to lose.

by Charles P. Pierce | Esquire Jun 01 '04

<snip>

This is something else people should know about John Kerry: When you lose to him, he finishes you. Which is why it should have been a caution to the president when an anonymous Kerry advisor replied that if the White House were to go after Kerry on his divorce, or his wife's money, or some other area that Kerry deemed out of bounds, then "everything is on the table."

<snip>

more at http://www.democrats.us/beta/forum/view_topic.php?id=1462&forum_id=12

[Liberal Veteran]

18. You'd be right if you replaced Dean with Lieberman.

:eyes:

[mistertrickster]

19. The elephant in the closet Kerry backers keep ignoring is "I supported the

Iraq invasion."

That's the key issue that Dean was immune to. Until Kerry comes out and says that the invasion of Iraq was the stupidest policy decision since the escalation of Vietnam, he just can't distinguish himself enough from Bushit for the average uninformed voter.

Kerry had nothing until he started talking like Dean. He should start talking like Dean again.

Plain, pithy, and why GW is a dumbshit and you're a dumbshit to vote for him again.

Anything less and Kerry can kiss it goodbye.

Kerry on . . .

MrT

[Dookus]

20. bullshit

Dean supported a slightly different war resolution.

[mistertrickster]

22. Link it . . .

please . . .

[emulatorloo]

27. Here, re Dean and Biden-Lugar, from a Clark Blog

http://defreese.forclark.com/story/2003/12/25/20154/957

[mistertrickster]

34. Okay, well, this is so opaque and hair splitting, I can't tell what the

hell this guy is driving at--other than he's desperately TRYING to make the case that Dean supported the same thing Kerry did. Not seeing a lot of proof there really, especially since Dean never had to vote on anything.

The fact remains--when the pResident wanted to go in, Big Ker was there backing him up, despite his experience in Vietnam, another "elective" war which every Congressperson voted in favor of (the Gulf of Tonkin resolution) except for two.

He's got to explain how he's not Bush on this, and his "I'd vote the same way again" just really doesn't help.

[Dookus]

28. ok

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/primaries/massachusetts/articles/2003/12/10/kerry_argues_that_gore_backed_wrong_howard_dean/

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/11/23/deans_negative_tilt_in_iowa/

Dean supported the Biden/Lugar resolution.

He's a centrist, DLC democrat. I'm sick to death of the people who pretend he's some progressive superhero. Luckily, a REAL liberal won the nomination.

[mistertrickster]

41. Heh, thanks for the link but this mainly shows KERRY saying Dean's

position was the same as his. If you think forcing Bush to comply with a UN decision on WMD's, a UN decision which in retrospect would have never happened (especially while Hans Blix's team was still working on it) is the same thing as saying "bomb away, Bush," then, yes, it is the same.

I don't see those two resolutions as being the same at all.

Sorry.

But that still doesn't change the main issue either way--Kerry, like Dean, has to come down on this war as stupid, unjust, immoral, and counter-productive.

Anything less and he's just Bush-lite on the most important issue our country faces--war and peace.

Right or wrong, you felt like you knew where Dean stood on the issue. Unfortunately, a lot of folks DON'T seem to have the same feeling about Kerry on Iraq.

[Dookus]

45. nonsense

only kool-aid drinkers think they knew where Dean stood on that, or many other issues.

He was as wishy-washy as any other experienced politician. The links I gave above SHOW that Dean was for a war resolution. To pretend he was always anti-war is ignoring the obvious.

He's also not a liberal. He also sealed his records. He was a member of the DLC. You have to be purposely blindered to pretend you KNOW where he stood on anything.

[saracat]

104. Thank you Dookus!

You are 100% correct.That is exactly the reason I couldn't support Dean.Though I was madly jealous of his campaign. It looked like such fun, and lots of my friends were Deaniacs. But my research told me the man was no liberal,and he was being presented as a wolf in sheep's clothing.And he did support Biden/Luger. I don't like Kerry's vote but at least he didn't fake being anti-war!And, while I'm on a roll, he didn't try to be a blue collar man of the people when he was a wealthy Ivy League educated former stock broker and physician. Dean liked to tout his "cheapness" or frugality, and it was just phony.The lid was blown off that act when they published how Mr.Frugal blew his followers hard earned dollars on imported cheese chocolates and rock headliners for his upper crust donors. With all the money he raised he mismanaged to the point of indebtedness.And he was a fiscal conservative.Yeah, right. Anyway, rant over. Lets elect President Kerry and stop this bullcrap!

[sampsonblk]

42. The time for that stuff is over

I agree with your points, and exit polls back you up as well.

But we can't go back now.

[mistertrickster]

43. I don't want to go BACK--I want Kerry to go forward by taking a stronger

stance against the war.

I'd like to see him giving a six month timetable to turn control over to the UN and the interim gov't and then US troops are out of there.

Something . . . anything.

[Connie_Corleone]

21. Dean would've been slaughtered.

I know alot of people who were going to vote third party if Dean got the nomination. And I'm one of them.

[Crachet2004]

23. Impossible to say, but Dean would have pounded the War in Iraq,

Sideways up their ass. Kerry could have done that too, but he is too much part of the power structure...wants to keep the war going, just do it different-maybe.

If John Kerry is elected, boy is HE in for a surprise. Traditional republicans are gonna turn on the war, and anyone who supports it like junkyard dogs. They HATE foreign entanglements. We on the left, will also not be supporting him in any effort to prolong or broaden said war. He will be screwed.

He could have run on an antiwar platform, but was afraid of being characterized as being weak. Maybe he is right doing it the way he is...I dunno.

But I do know this, even if JK doesn't-if he is elected, the war is OVER.

[wurzel]

24. Only someone who believes that poll would also believe that!

[liberalnurse]

25. I love Dean but you need to get with the program.....

it's the media that is spinning the GOP talking points and the polls are not credible. They are owned/managed by Corporate Republicans..... We are their enemy....no matter who is running....they will fudge, manipulate and construe data, facts and the truth.

Don't take the bait. We can circumvent them throught getting registered voters out there at the polls. That suggests you go out and canvas for voter registration.

[mark414]

26. dude

get over it

i supported dean once too, but those days are over. end of story, drop it.

[depakid]

29. One thing no one can deny

is that Howard Dean would have played the game differently. We can speculate all we want about how that might have turned out-

My guess is that a Dean/Clark ticket would have eviscerated the Republicans with a nationalized campaign that not only reacted quickly but kept Republicans at all levels-local, state and national on the defensive- trying in vain to justify their corrupt, irrational policies. Dean understood (among other things) the multiplier effect.

So far, the Kerry contingent doesn't or hasn't.

That's just a fact, and as I've said and felt so many times before, I wish that I were wrong.

[Dookus]

30. And Dean

as he did the primaries, would've peaked weeks before the election.

Timing is important. Kerry understands that a helluva lot better than the bitchers and whiners here.

[depakid]

38. I hope beyond reason that you are right

and I'll be the first to raise my glass if/when you're proven right-

You have no idea.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

31. First of all, many of us, including myself, disagree. Secondly, even if

that were true (which there is no way of knowing), what would be the point of posting this?

[Michigander4Dean]

36. The point of posting this

It's called 'discussion.' It might be referred to as 'speaking my mind,' 'opining,' or 'putting in my two cents.'

That's why DU has forums: for discussion, debate, and conversation. Dubya hasn't taken away my First Amendment. If I have an opinion, I have the right to speak it. Conversely, you have the right to disagree.

It's common sense.

[sangh0]

70. That's a point?

We had plenty of "discussion" before you started the thread.

If I have an opinion, I have the right to speak it.

But that doesn't make it a right thing to do.

[MercutioATC]

86. Right, a "discussion board" is no place for discussion.

:wtf:

[Meshuga]

32. I beg to differ...

I'm sure the GOP would come up with some crazy story that Dean or his wife performed abortions and that Dean is too unstable to be president and Dean would be in worse shape perhaps.

The videos of Dean screaming would be all over the airwaives and the media would start a mantra that Dean is too lefty and not main stream (which is all bullshit)

I like Dean and all but I think that, with the media beating up Democrats, we would be in trouble regardless who is running.

[Rowdyboy]

33. Naive, high-schoolish bullshit....

You're either trying to re-open ancient wounds or cause doubt. Either way its counterproductive and negative. Stop the negativity-unless you want us to lose.

[Michigander4Dean]

44. Highschoolish?

Go ahead, prove it.

[Rowdyboy]

55. Dean couldn't even carry Iowa....He lost, Kerry won...Now we beat Bush

You play whatever games you want to, but don't pretend to be a Democrat if you're still posting anti-Kerry bullshit in September, 7 weeks before an election. Howard Dean endorsed John Kerry. He is not running, now will a vote for him count.

If you really respected Dean, you'd STFU and get behind his candidate.

[wndycty]

37. But he is not. . .

:kick:

[Michigander4Dean]

47. I think we know that.

I'm not an idiot.

[zulchzulu]

40. If Robert Plant sang with Yes, it would have been the next Beatles

Yeah...Carrot Top would have been a great James Bond.

If orange juice actually tasted like cranberries, it would be even more popular.

If salt was actually was made in cubes naturally, it would be easier to package.

If beer grew on trees and was like picking a beer-filled coconut, th World would be happier.

If my Honda Civic was actually a Lear Jet, I would be on TV and have my own talk show.

I see what you're saying.

[EST]

53. I am seeing what you're saying.

Teehee

[TreasonousBastard]

60. Now wait a minute...

what was that about beer-filled coconuts?

[oasis]

48. Dean would have won if it wasn't for Gore. Gore would be president if

it wasn't for the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS would have voted in favor of Gore if Clarence Thomas wasn't a SC justice. Clarence Thomas wouldn't be a SC Justice if Dems would have rejected him after Anita Hill's testimony on Clarences sexual harrassment.

I'll finish this message in the DU Lounge for those who are interested.

[AmerDem]

49. Nonsense!

Is this kind of post really needed? :wtf:

[George_Bonanza]

51. If "YEEAAAHHH" destroyed him that quickly...

We'd be down by twenty, FOR REAL, not like the bogus Time and Newsweek polls. And Dean would be branded as an anti-American homosexual for his "unpatriotic" comments on Saddam after his capture and his legalization of civil unions in Vermont.

[oasis]

52. Was Dean's "scream" before or after Kerry beat him in Iowa?

[Amaya]

57. What a bunch of CRAP!

Move on, k?

[Bombtrack]

58. Bullshit. Dean's "gloves being off" isn't going to change the fact that he

was for a middle class income tax raise. And how dumb do you have to be to buy into the time and newsweek polls. They've been basically discredited and contradicted.

Oh, and we can also thank Dean for popularizing the lie that Kerry and Edwards "voted for the war" that the GOP is using so ferverisly. Dean can go to hell and his delusional worshippers can kiss my ass.

[Maddy McCall]

59. Keep on dreaming.

Utter bullshit.

[Julien Sorel]

61. I think the key to how truthful your statement is

is how forcefully and dynamically Dean responded to Gephardt's attacks on him in Iowa. Dean immediately ran to Terry McAuliffe whining like a spanked child, and when that didn't work, he sat on his hands and got the shit beat out of him. Afterwards, he let out his glorious shriek heard 'round the world, which the Republicans still use when they can. Yes, Dean is the kind of candidate that would be winning this election going away.

And in a year where Bush is running on his record on terrorism, the experience Dean had as governor of Vermont easily trumps Bush's record. Yes, Dean would be blowing Bush away. The Republicans would be fighting hard just to hang on to Texas at this point, if only we had had the wisdom and foresight to pick the mighty Howard.


Howard Dean: a fighter who couldn't fight when it counted, and a guy with no foreign policy credentials when the U.S. is involved in a shooting war. The best candidate the Republicans could buy.

[madfloridian]

62. Yours is a magnificent post, filled with kindness and thoughtfulness.

I was going to suggest again, as I did the other evening, that people not post things like this, saying Dean should have been the nominee.

I did post a nice message, and mostly it was well received.

This thread is so hateful now, that I will no longer even attempt to keep peace.

Some of the people who post things like this are not even Dean supporters at all. Use your brain.

There is a site with initials similar to DU which has all kinds of stuff like this being instigated here.

I have seen this ugliness enough, so I say to those people just go for it.

Someone has to stop this ugliness. But it won't be me anymore.

[jsw_81]

63. Nonsense

Bush would have taken 49 states against Dean.

[shivaji]

64. I was all set to vote for Dean, I can not vote for Kerry

I am one of those so called independents, since I have
voted for both parties in the past. Dean's forthrightness,
NON-FLIP/FLOP approach and health care record had impressed
me enough to go for him in presidential election.

I can never depend on Kerry, since he has flip flopped on
almost every issue, even the right to choose.

[paulk]

71. so, what about Bush impresses you so much

that, in effect, you will be voting for him?

[Eric J in MN]

72. Kerry didn't flip-flop on the right to choose.

Kerry said he personally believes that life begins at conception but he supports the right to choose.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

81. Nice.

:eyes:

[mzmolly]

65. I'm a huge Dean supporter from the primaries, but I don't think we should

"go there" ... please ...

[madfloridian]

66. I have tried to say this also, but I will not intervene anymore.

Not after some of names we were called here today, and some posts literally calling Howard Dean a coward. I will not post such crap, but I will not even try to stop it as I have before. The hatefulness and ugliness in these threads is unreal.

[mzmolly]

67. I missed the vile. Thankfully. I think these threads should be locked

immediately on both sides. It's pointless :shrug:

:hi:

[madfloridian]

68. The vile is right here on the front page. It is ugly.

I will not be called names, and I will not try to keep the peace anymore.

[mzmolly]

74. I don't blame you.

:hug:

[fujiyama]

73. Thanks

for a worthless divisive thread. This accompishes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

If you wanted Dean to win the nomination, you should have worked harder THEN. Dean lost. He supports Kerry. That's all there is to this.

My own guess is that Dean would have been defined by Rove and the media as an out of touch radical hippie freak from Vermont. He may have responded to these attacks but the way he responded to attacks in the primaries wouldn't have given me much comfort. Usually he attacked in a way that looked like he was lashing out. He was the "angry candidate". Sure he may have attracted some support from the far left, but he would have driven off a LOT of support from the center.

I don't think Dean would have had a chance capturing more than 75% of the democratic vote.

[madfloridian]

76. Here is my previous post on the primaries. Reposting.

I have tried very hard, just because I really care about my country, not to be critical of Kerry. I have several times posted forum nanny type threads asking Deaniacs to lay off posts like we are seeing today. Dean is NOT the nominee. He is still working hard though.

I have read some of the ugliest posts today, and they have in an ugly way attacked Dean supporters in general and Dean himself viciously. He has been called a coward, a liar, a loser, and many other things. I am not going to even try to make peace anymore.

I AM going to post the primary schedule again in text form. I am going to put a line across it when Dean dropped out, and I would like for everyone to quit calling him a loser. This chart makes it very clear that our nominee was chosen by the very early states, very small states, not representative of the larger coastal states. It is not right. It would be nice to have people quit calling us losers.

I highlighted the ones in March because that is when Florida, New York, and California had their primaries. Dean was out by then. He was not campaigning much after NH either. Winners should be gracious to losers, even if MOST of us got no chance to vote.

January 13th, 2004 District of Columbia Presidential Primary (Closed)
January 19th, 2004 Iowa Democratic Caucuses
The rally, better known as the scream, was played hundreds and hundreds of times. Dean was declared crazy by the media.

January 27th, 2004 New Hampshire Presidential Primary (Closed)

February 3rd, 2004 Arizona Presidential Preference Election (Closed)
Delaware Democratic Presidential Primary (Closed)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Democratic Caucuses
North Dakota Democratic Caucuses

Oklahoma Presidential Primary (Closed)
South Carolina Democratic Presidential Preference Primary

February 7th, 2004 Michigan Democratic Presidential Caucuses
Washington Democratic Caucuses

February 8th, 2004 Maine Democratic Caucuses

February 10th, 2004 District of Columbia Republican Presidential Preference Caucuses
Tennessee Presidential Primary (Open)
Virginia Democratic Presidential Primary (Open)

February 14th, 2004 District of Columbia Democratic Caucuses
Nevada Democratic Caucuses

The DAY before WI Dean's campaign manager Steve Grossman left him and went directly to Kerry VERY PUBLICLY.

February 17th, 2004 Wisconsin Presidential Primary (Open)
Dean dropped out on the 18th, but he was no longer actively campaigning even then.
The state below the line never got to vote for a full slate of candidates at all. It should not be that way. None of our guys should be called losers!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

February 24th, 2004 Hawaii Democratic Caucuses
Idaho Democratic Caucuses
Utah Democratic Presidential Primary

March 2nd, 2004 California Presidential Primary (Modified Closed)
Connecticut Presidential Primary (Closed)
Georgia Presidential Preference Primary (Open)
Maryland Presidential Primary (Closed)
Massachusetts Presidential Primary
Minnesota Democratic Caucuses
Minnesota Republican Caucuses
New York Presidential Primary (Closed)
Ohio Presidential Primary (Open)
Rhode Island Presidential Preference Primary
Vermont Presidential Primary (Open)

March 9th, 2004 Florida Presidential Primary (Closed)
Louisiana Presidential Preference Election
Mississippi Presidential Primary (Open)
Texas Presidential Primary (Open)
Washington Republican Caucuses

March 13th, 2004 Kansas Democratic Caucuses

March 16th, 2004 Illinois Presidential Primary (Open)

March 20th, 2004 Alaska Democratic Caucuses
Wyoming Democratic County Caucuses

March 23rd, 2004 Utah Republican Caucuses

April 13th, 2004 Colorado Democratic Caucuses
Colorado Republican Caucuses

April 27th, 2004 Pennsylvania Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 4th, 2004 Indiana Presidential Primary (Open)
North Carolina Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 8th, 2004 Wyoming Republican State Convention
Arizona Republican State Convention

May 11th, 2004 Nebraska Presidential Primary (Open)
West Virginia Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 15th, 2004 Wyoming Democratic State Caucus

May 18th, 2004 Arkansas Presidential Primary (Open)
Kentucky Presidential Primary (Closed)
Oregon Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 25th, 2004 Idaho Presidential Primary (Open)

June 1st, 2004 Alabama Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Republican Primary
South Dakota Presidential Primary (Closed)

June 8th, 2004 Montana Presidential Primary (Open)
New Jersey Presidential Primary

[fujiyama]

83. You bring up some good points

My post really wasn't against Dean. I have a lot of admiration for him and liked him ever since I read about him very early on (before most people probably had) in an article in the New Republic. He wasn't my candidate for various reasons, but I don't have any problem with him and I appreciate his work with DFA and like your own updates on his activities and appearances.

I'm just kind of annoyed with this notion that "we chose the wrong candidate". I think second guessing the nominee is very divisive. I would be saying that regardless of whom the nominee was - whether that would have been Dean, Clark, Edwards, or Kerry (the others simply had no chance in hell of even getting the nomination, let alone getting elected). Don't mistake me. I'm not saying there should be no CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of Kerry's campaign. I myself have been critical of him the last few weeks.

I agree with you about the relative power of two very small states. I really do not like the fact that they have so much influence over the nomination process.

I disagree though in that Dean, Clark, and Edwards did lose. They clearly did. Kerry wasn't my first choice either, but by the rules set forth, Kerry did win and the other candidates lost. There's nothing wrong with losing. All the candidates have been gracious about it. Every one of the candidates that ran understand the stakes and the important of this election. Ultimately, I think that's all that matters.

[okieinpain]

75. I love dean, but dean with a lead is bullshit. if they can do

this to kerry, dean would be the poster child for mentally ill

[malatesta1137]

77. I was Dean man

but you are wrong I think. The media had already chewed him alive. He's too much of a leftist in their view.

[formernaderite]

78. We're not allowed to say that out loud....dontcha know?

I agree....Dean at least would have been able to make a principled stand against the war....something that Kerry can't. Oh well...I was upset when Dean lost...not investing alot of emotions into this one anymore.

[Toucano]

79. Really?

Do you really, seriously believe that people who can trash a decorated HERO's war record wouldn't have mopped the floor with the Mayor of Vermont's back-injury-deferment and skiing vacation?

Dean lost Iowa before the "scream". He came in THIRD because people didn't vote for him. Is that so hard to understand?

[madfloridian]

80. Here is my response when Dean is called a loser.

I have tried very hard, just because I really care about my country, not to be critical of Kerry. I have several times posted forum nanny type threads asking Deaniacs to lay off posts like we are seeing today. Dean is NOT the nominee. He is still working hard though.

I have read some of the ugliest posts today, and they have in an ugly way attacked Dean supporters in general and Dean himself viciously. He has been called a coward, a liar, a loser, and many other things. I am not going to even try to make peace anymore.

I AM going to post the primary schedule again in text form. I am going to put a line across it when Dean dropped out, and I would like for everyone to quit calling him a loser. This chart makes it very clear that our nominee was chosen by the very early states, very small states, not representative of the larger coastal states. It is not right. It would be nice to have people quit calling us losers.

I highlighted the ones in March because that is when Florida, New York, and California had their primaries. Dean was out by then. He was not campaigning much after NH either. Winners should be gracious to losers, even if MOST of us got no chance to vote.

January 13th, 2004 District of Columbia Presidential Primary (Closed)
January 19th, 2004 Iowa Democratic Caucuses
The rally, better known as the scream, was played hundreds and hundreds of times. Dean was declared crazy by the media.

January 27th, 2004 New Hampshire Presidential Primary (Closed)

February 3rd, 2004 Arizona Presidential Preference Election (Closed)
Delaware Democratic Presidential Primary (Closed)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Democratic Caucuses
North Dakota Democratic Caucuses

Oklahoma Presidential Primary (Closed)
South Carolina Democratic Presidential Preference Primary

February 7th, 2004 Michigan Democratic Presidential Caucuses
Washington Democratic Caucuses

February 8th, 2004 Maine Democratic Caucuses

February 10th, 2004 District of Columbia Republican Presidential Preference Caucuses
Tennessee Presidential Primary (Open)
Virginia Democratic Presidential Primary (Open)

February 14th, 2004 District of Columbia Democratic Caucuses
Nevada Democratic Caucuses

The DAY before WI Dean's campaign manager Steve Grossman left him and went directly to Kerry VERY PUBLICLY.

February 17th, 2004 Wisconsin Presidential Primary (Open)
Dean dropped out on the 18th, but he was no longer actively campaigning even then.
The state below the line never got to vote for a full slate of candidates at all. It should not be that way. None of our guys should be called losers!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

February 24th, 2004 Hawaii Democratic Caucuses
Idaho Democratic Caucuses
Utah Democratic Presidential Primary

March 2nd, 2004 California Presidential Primary (Modified Closed)
Connecticut Presidential Primary (Closed)
Georgia Presidential Preference Primary (Open)
Maryland Presidential Primary (Closed)
Massachusetts Presidential Primary
Minnesota Democratic Caucuses
Minnesota Republican Caucuses
New York Presidential Primary (Closed)
Ohio Presidential Primary (Open)
Rhode Island Presidential Preference Primary
Vermont Presidential Primary (Open)

March 9th, 2004 Florida Presidential Primary (Closed)
Louisiana Presidential Preference Election
Mississippi Presidential Primary (Open)
Texas Presidential Primary (Open)
Washington Republican Caucuses

March 13th, 2004 Kansas Democratic Caucuses

March 16th, 2004 Illinois Presidential Primary (Open)

March 20th, 2004 Alaska Democratic Caucuses
Wyoming Democratic County Caucuses

March 23rd, 2004 Utah Republican Caucuses

April 13th, 2004 Colorado Democratic Caucuses
Colorado Republican Caucuses

April 27th, 2004 Pennsylvania Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 4th, 2004 Indiana Presidential Primary (Open)
North Carolina Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 8th, 2004 Wyoming Republican State Convention
Arizona Republican State Convention

May 11th, 2004 Nebraska Presidential Primary (Open)
West Virginia Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 15th, 2004 Wyoming Democratic State Caucus

May 18th, 2004 Arkansas Presidential Primary (Open)
Kentucky Presidential Primary (Closed)
Oregon Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 25th, 2004 Idaho Presidential Primary (Open)

June 1st, 2004 Alabama Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Republican Primary
South Dakota Presidential Primary (Closed)

June 8th, 2004 Montana Presidential Primary (Open)
New Jersey Presidential Primary

[Toucano]

82. I didn't call Dean a loser.

Don't put words in my post. ;) I respect and admire Governor Dean.

I don't understand what the primary schedule is supposed to be telling me. If you're suggesting that Dean's supporters didn't get the chance to vote for him, I hope you realize that the schedule applied to all the candidates, not just Dean.

Gephardt, Lieberman, Graham, Mosley Braun and Clark could all claim that their candidate's supporters never got the chance to vote for him or her. Dean's supporters jumped ship before he stopped campaigning.

As I recall, Governor Dean won only Vermont's primary. That's more than Lieberman won, but it doesn't matter. It's votes that count.

The point I want to make is this:

Any human being we nominated would have been subjected to the same right-wing attacks as Kerry. The same media bias. The same uninformed electorate.

The Swift boat ads had vastly more exposure on television and radio than they paid for. That hasn't been by accident. If you want to hold on to the notion that the media destroyed Dean, you have to ask yourself if the media didn't create him in the first place.

Disgruntled supporters of other candidates simply have to accept that voters didn't agree with them. There was no fraud or disenfranchisement. It's a normal electoral process. Candidates lose. That doesn't make them "losers", as you put it. It just means someone else got hired.

[madfloridian]

85. Actually, no, his supporters did not leave him.

No, you just said he came in third because people did not vote for him......MOST of us NEVER had the chance.

You said: "Gephardt, Lieberman, Graham, Mosley Braun and Clark could all claim that their candidate's supporters never got the chance to vote for him or her. Dean's supporters jumped ship before he stopped campaigning." (Acutally there was more to it than that in Iowa, but it is better not to rehash)

Kerry won Iowa, and people started voting for him. At the time he won Iowa he was NOT leading in states like FL, NY, and CA at all.

I never ever start a thread about this, but I do not let anyone get away with saying any of our guys were losers.

They should all claim that, that they never got to vote for their candidate. Two small states with a mostly white caucasian population should not have that much power. I am white caucasian, and I think it is wrong. We should all have had a chance to vote for whomever we supported.

That is how primaries should be.

[Toucano]

87. How did you not have a chance to vote?

What prevented you and every other Dean supporter from voting for Dean?

White people in Iowa who voted for Kerry stopped you and others in future primaries from voting for Dean? Is that what you're saying?

Why can't you face the fact that Dean's support was far thinner than the media let us believe?

His support in Iowa abandoned him. He had the lead in the polls all summer and into the winter. Election day arrived and he came in THIRD. Not first, not second. THIRD! (there are three tickets out, but the third one is by the skin of one's teeth).

Did that make supporters in FL, NY and CA decide to vote for Kerry? That's a ridiculous idea, friend. Ridiculous. Did the scream make them vote for Kerry? Was Dean's support a mile wide and and inch deep?

Also, what evidence do you have that Dean had strong support among non-whites? I don't recall any consistent polls that had him winning in that demographic. South Carolina has a large minority population. 4% voted for Dean and that was an early primary.

There's a process in accepting loss of any kind. I really do sympathize, but grasping at myths to explain your loss is really unhealthy. The unpleasant truth you keep shunning is that voters all over the country had a chance to vote freely, and they decided someone else would be a better choice.

"...I do not let anyone get away with saying any of our guys were losers."

I never said Dean was a loser. Please stop repeating that.

[madfloridian]

91. Did you see my long post above? 37 states did not get to vote for Dean.

I won't even address your issue on the non-white voters, as he had HUGE support there. That is a fact.

As to why did people in FL, NY, and CA not vote for Dean????

I am NOT going in to the vote-switching in Iowa. I am NOT going into the push-polling. Remember McCain's black baby? Well, my friend, with the Doctors Dean it was abortions and mental illness.
How can you deny or address something when you don't know it is going on.

I am going to show you my chart again....so you will see that NO ONE below the line had a chance to vote for Dean....and others. That is wrong.
Here is my other post that you did not understand.
"I have tried very hard, just because I really care about my country, not to be critical of Kerry. I have several times posted forum nanny type threads asking Deaniacs to lay off posts like we are seeing today. Dean is NOT the nominee. He is still working hard though.

I have read some of the ugliest posts today, and they have in an ugly way attacked Dean supporters in general and Dean himself viciously. He has been called a coward, a liar, a loser, and many other things. I am not going to even try to make peace anymore.

I AM going to post the primary schedule again in text form. I am going to put a line across it when Dean dropped out, and I would like for everyone to quit calling him a loser. This chart makes it very clear that our nominee was chosen by the very early states, very small states, not representative of the larger coastal states. It is not right. It would be nice to have people quit calling us losers.

I highlighted the ones in March because that is when Florida, New York, and California had their primaries. Dean was out by then. He was not campaigning much after NH either. Winners should be gracious to losers, even if MOST of us got no chance to vote.

January 13th, 2004 District of Columbia Presidential Primary (Closed)
January 19th, 2004 Iowa Democratic Caucuses
The rally, better known as the scream, was played hundreds and hundreds of times. Dean was declared crazy by the media.

January 27th, 2004 New Hampshire Presidential Primary (Closed)

February 3rd, 2004 Arizona Presidential Preference Election (Closed)
Delaware Democratic Presidential Primary (Closed)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Democratic Caucuses
North Dakota Democratic Caucuses

Oklahoma Presidential Primary (Closed)
South Carolina Democratic Presidential Preference Primary

February 7th, 2004 Michigan Democratic Presidential Caucuses
Washington Democratic Caucuses

February 8th, 2004 Maine Democratic Caucuses

February 10th, 2004 District of Columbia Republican Presidential Preference Caucuses
Tennessee Presidential Primary (Open)
Virginia Democratic Presidential Primary (Open)

February 14th, 2004 District of Columbia Democratic Caucuses(does not count by Dean won it.)
Nevada Democratic Caucuses

The DAY before WI Dean's campaign manager Steve Grossman left him and went directly to Kerry VERY PUBLICLY.

February 17th, 2004 Wisconsin Presidential Primary (Open)
Dean dropped out on the 18th, but he was no longer actively campaigning even then.
The states below the line never got to vote for a full slate of candidates at all. It should not be that way. None of our guys should be called losers!

I count 37 states who did not get to vote for Dean and other candidates. How is this right!!!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

February 24th, 2004 Hawaii Democratic Caucuses
Dean was fundraising in Hawaii this week, putting his own feelings aside.
Idaho Democratic Caucuses
Utah Democratic Presidential Primary

March 2nd, 2004 California Presidential Primary (Modified Closed)
Connecticut Presidential Primary (Closed)
Georgia Presidential Preference Primary (Open)
Maryland Presidential Primary (Closed)
Massachusetts Presidential Primary
Minnesota Democratic Caucuses
New York Presidential Primary (Closed)
Ohio Presidential Primary (Open)
Rhode Island Presidential Preference Primary
Vermont Presidential Primary (Open)

March 9th, 2004 Florida Presidential Primary (Closed)
Louisiana Presidential Preference Election
Mississippi Presidential Primary (Open)
Texas Presidential Primary (Open)

March 13th, 2004 Kansas Democratic Caucuses

March 16th, 2004 Illinois Presidential Primary (Open)

March 20th, 2004 Alaska Democratic Caucuses
Wyoming Democratic County Caucuses

April 13th, 2004 Colorado Democratic Caucuses

April 27th, 2004 Pennsylvania Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 4th, 2004 Indiana Presidential Primary (Open)
North Carolina Presidential Primary (Closed

May 11th, 2004 Nebraska Presidential Primary (Open)
West Virginia Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 15th, 2004 Wyoming Democratic State Caucus

May 18th, 2004 Arkansas Presidential Primary (Open)
Kentucky Presidential Primary (Closed)
Oregon Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 25th, 2004 Idaho Presidential Primary (Open)

June 1st, 2004 Alabama Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Republican Primary
South Dakota Presidential Primary (Closed)

June 8th, 2004 Montana Presidential Primary (Open)
New Jersey Presidential Primary

[Toucano]

94. "NO ONE below the line had a chance to vote for Dean"

Did you vote for Dean? I know you're really proud of your list, and you worked hard on it, but it doesn't prove anything. I wasn't aware that Dean's name had been scrubbed from your ballot.

"I won't even address your issue on the non-white voters, as he had HUGE support there. That is a fact."

By all means, address it. I've never seen evidence of it.

[madfloridian]

95. It did NOT count!

Dean's name was on our ballot. I voted for him as a protest type of vote. Of course it did not count. Why would you even ask.

As to the non-white support, I know for sure. You address it and find proof he did not. Look up info and polls.

How can you equate voting for candidate whose name is left on the ballot with one that counts?

[Toucano]

96. It counted.

You were one of 20,717 people in Florida who voted for Dean.

121,837 Californians voted for Dean.
18,815 New Yorkers voted for Dean.

Obviously, people could and did vote for Dean in New York, California and Florida.


As to the non-white vote, I already told you. In South Carolina, an early primary state, Gov. Dean got 4% of the non-white vote. Edwards got 37%.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/SC/index.html

In Oklahoma, he got 6%.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/OK/index.html

I don't think that's considered "huge support".

[Julien Sorel]

102. But, but, but, there was a webpage, "African Americans for Dean,"

doesn't that prove he had support with minorities? And he had a black roommate at Yale. There's one minority vote he can count on!

But all this is silliness. Dean's true strength would have been in the general election, when Republicans in large numbers would have abandoned Bush for Dean. This is a fact, because there was a webpage, "Republicans For Dean," that his supporters used to tout around here every day as proof of his crossover appeal.

The man was a monster. He had a webpage for every ethnic group, gender, sexual orientation, and political persuasion. Easily the best candidate we've seen since William Jennings Bryan. And the Democrats threw him back into the lake like an under the size limit fish. Outrageous.

[madfloridian]

107. Where did this hatred come from?

What did any of us do to you? I remember the blog that sent folks here. Why is this still going on.

The man is a monster?

He did not have webpages, we had them.

Have it your way. I can not fight that in a hateful manner. You win.

I do love our Democrats!

[madfloridian]

108. If I said things like this, I don't know what would happen.

What do you gain by it. Do you feel better and happier inside.

This party is not unified, it is badly divided. It would not take a lot to bring folks together. I have tried. I will not bother anymore.

You win.

[Toucano]

101. If by NOT counted

you mean to say it didn't change the outcome, you're correct.

It just hit me that you might be saying the votes didn't count when you mean to say they didn't matter - because the outcome was still the same. That's because the one who gets the MOST votes is what's supposed to change the outcome. Dean didn't get the most votes.

That's how the whole thing works.

[madfloridian]

103. Because he was not running! 37 states did not get to vote for him.

How often do people vote for folks who are "out of the race."

Finally you understood, sort of.

It still remains that 37 states did not get to vote for him while he was still a candidate.

So calling us losers, calling him a loser is just plain outrageous.
37 states are very important.

That is NO way to run a primary, and it needs to be changed.

[mbali]

90. Two small states with a mostly caucasian population - sounds like VT

What makes you think that Dean would have gotten strong support from minority voters? His poll numbers were far behind Edwards, Kerry, Clark and Sharpton in that demographic.

[madfloridian]

92. I think you should read what I wrote again.

I followed the campaign closely. If you will read my post just above yours you will see that 37 states did not get to vote for him. How in the world is that fair?

Yes, Dean had a lot of support among minority communities. I don't know where you got your info. I am ready to have you prove it.

But only after you explain that to me why it right that 37 states did not have a full slate of candidates. It is just not right.

[madfloridian]

93. AH, the old misreading trick. Here is what I said.

"They should all claim that, that they never got to vote for their candidate. Two small states with a mostly white caucasian population should not have that much power. I am white caucasian, and I think it is wrong. We should all have had a chance to vote for whomever we supported. "

Now you find where I said anything else.

[West Coast Democrat]

84. The GOP and the media were going to attack whomever the Dem candidate...

turned out to be. Do you think they wouldn't publish some slanderous book about Dean, and put on attack ads?

Everyone knows that the media crucifies the Dem candidate no matter if he runs attack ads, or plays it nice. Whatever the Dem does, it's the wrong thing, and he's running a bad campaign. That's just how the biased media works.

Now, I watch CBS Nightly News, and I see that they're being pretty touch on Bush* these days. The cable news is different, and they have an agenda. But just take a break from that cable garbage for a while, and you'll feel better about Kerry's campaign.

[Tim_in_HK]

88. That's pretty funny

Keep 'em coming.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

89. Coulda woulda shoulda

We've got 60 days left.

[redstateblues]

99. The Premise Of This Thread Is Foolish- Let's Get Focused

on what matters. Dean got his ass kicked in the primaries- It's time for Dean supporters to accept that- If he can't win more than what was it? 1 or 2? A little more mental toughness is in order.

[mbali]

110. Dean accepted it long ago - his supporters need to check in with him

[Nicholas_J]

97. As Joe Trippi said the other night

On Charlie Rose, Dean lost in before Iowa, when Al Gore Endorsed him.

There was not a single poll that indicated that Dean could beat Bush during the entire campaign for the nomination, and that came from a great deal of polling both Democrats and Republicans. The largest percentage of Democrats were indicating that if Dean was the democratic nominee, they would vote for Bush. The percentage of Democrats who stated that they would vote for Bush if Dean was the nominee exceeded 20 percent in more than one poll, and never fell below 18 percent of Democrats who indicated that they would not vote for Dean if he was the nominee. Many rasons were cited, from his draft deferrments (they cited that Bush's Air National Guard service was at least more honorable than Dean's reasons for getting his deferrments, particualrly when he spoke of his deferrments and the summer of doing construction work and skiing after getting them).
Another reason was that Dean was the most easy to demonize with his support of civil unions. Dean did not just support them, Dean made the issue real by being the FIRST person in the United Staes to pass such legislation, and it was another reason that a large number of conservative Democrats, particularly among both latino and black democratic voters, to state that they could not vote for Dean if he was the nominee.

The percentage of Democrats who right now state that they will vote for Bush rather than Kerry, is exactly the same as it was during the run for the nomination, about ten percent. No more democrats have abandoned the Kerry capaign at this point than indicated that they would vote for Bush during the run up for the nominations.

Virtually every polls had Dean being the one frontrunning who would lose the most democrats to Bush.

I dont know whee Dean supporters get this idea from, but by and large, no polls of any kind did anything but indicate that if Dean ran against Bush, Bush would win hands down.

He was the most marginalizable of all of the leading candidates.

His stance on the war in Iraq would not have given him any ability to run against Bush, as they would have easily brought up his support for Biden Lugar, which only differed from the resolution that eneded up being passed by stating that if we invaded Iraq, we would do so only to eliminate weapons of mass destruction, but we would not instutute a policy of regime change, so Deans stance which was not consistant in the months before the invasion of Iraq, would have been perfect for red-meat attacks on the part of the Bush administration.
This on top of his total lack of experience with Foreign Relations and National security would havemade it even easier for Bush o make the claim that Dean was not qualified to be a war time president, and certainly had no credentials to fight the war on terror at all.

If Kerry has little accoring to the Bush attack machine, Dean would have none.

IN the end, Dean could not get the support of 18 percent of the Democratic Party base when he was running against ther Democrats, the stance that he took, both on Iraq and his domestic policy of repealing ALL of theBush tax cuts would have made him even more of atarget as well, as Kerry can legitimately state that he will not get rid of the middle class tax cuts at all, when Dean stated that he would eleiminate them completely.

The reasons that Kerry is doing better than Bush with regards to the economy, is precisely that he has stated that he will not only NOT repeal the tax cuts on the middle class, but will give the middle class even more tax cutts to stimulate the economy.
Kerry has legitimate arguemtns against the Bush Administration charges that he will raise taxes on everyone. Dean could not make that argument.

Kerry's plan for National Health Insurance allow him to provide this health care for as many people as Dean's lan would, but without raising taxes on the middle class. The Office of Budget Management has examined Kerry's plan, and what it would cost, and have indicated that it would cost exactly what Kerry said it would. The same analysis of Dean plan indicated that Dean could not provide the health care programs that he stated he was going to provide without it costing a great deal more than the amount Dean claimed, or that Deans plan would greatly reduce what coverage people would recieve under his plan (as occured regularly in Vermont, as Dean only managed to provide health care for children, and his plan in Vermont caused a good many poor pople to lose their coverage in that state, in particular, low income singles, adn low income retirees had many of their benefits reduced, or eliminated under Dean.

In a nutshell, they would have had a feild day with Dean, and Dean given the percentage of Democrats who stated outright that they would choose Bush over Dean, Dean woul have spent most of the run for the presidency anywhere form five to eight point behind Dean, factoring in the twice as many Democrats who consistantly stated they would vote for Bush rather than Dean. More than one out of five democrats stte thaey would vote for Bush if Dean was the nominee, The highest percentage this figure reached under Kerry during the nominations process was ten percent.

Sorry there is simply no way Dean would have been a viable candidate against Bush. He would have attracted the same people for his run for the president as he did during his run for the nomination, primarily people under thirty. Trhought the nomination period, Dean did fairly poorly compared to Kerry and eve Bush in support among retirees, and among people in the age group from 30-50.

Wishful thinking. Nothing based in reality at all.

[redstateblues]

105. Nuff Said- Now Let's Get Going And Elect Kerry

[Nicholas_J]

109. Exactly

I can tell you, as can many other people here, I had an immense distaste for Dean as candidate for the president, due to the disconnect between his extremely conservative nature as Governor, the fact that the Democratic Party in Vermont suffered massive losses of its membership while Dean was Governor, resulting in 40 percent of Democrats leaving the Democratic party due to Deans conservatism and joining the Vermont Progressive Party (I contribute to this party regularly, though I live in Florida). This has meant that in Vermont, the republicans can virtually control the state, as the Progressives generally win 25 percent of the votes for any office, the Democrats now take 34 percent, and Republican win major offices with a minority of 41 percent in most elections. Dean split the Liberal and Progressive elements in his state, doin irreparable damage to the Democratic cause, and giving republicans and Conservatives the power to control everything.

Dean's attacks on the Democrats who voted fot the Iraq resolution as a political ploy, with all of his varying stances, such as stating he would invade unilaterally for all of the months between September, 2002, and March 2003,as well as supporting Biden Lugar, while at the sam time making the claim that Kerry, Edwards and the others gave Bush a blank check for war, at a time that Dean had they ear and eye of the major media for a number of reasons realting to his popularity, his internet campaign, and other things unrelated to actual policy, have enebled Bush and Republicans to make the claim thatKerry supported going to war in Iraq becuse of his vote. It was this impression, rather than the realiry of Kerry's vote, which was to give authority to the president only after all diplomatic measures had been exhausted, or if suddenly Saddam posed an immediate threat to the U.S. or its citizens or interests, which is the REAL texty of the act, has created a public impression adn belief about the act that cannot easily be reversed. Largely, these actions by Dean have given Bush some of his best arguments about Kerry, none based in fact.

AS Joseph P. Kennedy said to his sons about politics. Appearances are everything. And it was Dean who largely created an appearance about the Authorization of the Use of Military Force in Iraq Act that has little bas in reality, but this appearance has given Bush a very powerful weapon. Based on Deans mis representation of the act.

But you are correct, we must support Kerry, and while Dean has made it harder, we have to find a convincing war to reverse the impression of that vote created by Dean in the public mind. Again, this is another time in which Deans stance and position has done considerable harm to the Democratic cause, as it did in Vermont. It will be very hard to undo, but this is not impossible. Dean himself coud do a great deal by reversing his stance on that act, and present the act as it is in substance, not as he needed it to appear for his own political goals.

[stavka]

112. If monkeys flew out of my butt, I could walk on water....

or at least walk on a stream of drowning monkeys

[Mr Blond]

113. I don't think Dean had any chance.

He would most certainly be doing worse than Kerry. Kerry beat him fair and square after he was up big in the primaries.

[Cogito ergo doleo]

114. Dean is doing great things

right where he is.

[Raiden]

115. Just remember

that during the primary, the pundits counted Kerry out, but at the very last moment, he surged, and stormed the primaries. I've learned that you never, NEVER count Kerry out.

[qwlauren35]

116. C'mon, let it go.

Speaking as a complete Deaniac, you need to let go. REALLY.

I am absolutely convinced that Dean has already made a difference in this year's election because he has brought hundreds of thousands of people like me out of the woodwork and turned us into activists. Maybe he electrified you too. And if so, that's GREAT. But now that we're electrified, we need to do what has to be done to get rid of Bush. That's the only way we can "TAKE BACK AMERICA". Get rid of Bush, and then HOLD KERRY ACCOUNTABLE.

You don't have to like Kerry to know he's better for America than Bush, and you don't have to like him to know that we stand a better chance of holding him accountable. Bush is only accountable to Cheney and the puppetmasters. Kerry is NOT a puppet. And for that reason (among many), we need to put Kerry, not Bush, in office.

Dean had the spit and fire to get us going. But it was Kerry who won the primary. So, while Bush is busy spitting his fire, hold onto what happened in the primary, and believe that it will happen again.

[PopSixSquish]

117. If "ifs and buts" were "candy and nuts"....

then we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

:crazy:

[Moderator]

118. Locking.....

This has turned to flamebait. The primaries are
over. Let's give this a rest.


Thank you.

DU Moderator