No matter how bad of candidate people think Kerry is HE BEAT DEAN!

[wndycty]

Please give all of this Howard would be doing better shit a rest, its a counterproductive. I am not here to bash Dean, but please give the who thing a rest and unite behind Kerry.

[lastknowngood]

1. you know what to do with that comment

n/t

[wndycty]

2. No, what?

What do I do with the truth?

[MercutioATC]

50. A hint: It involves putting something up something...

...possibly sideways.

[Dookus]

3. Yup

our ticket consists of TWO guys who beat Dean. Neener-neener.

[nyhuskyfan]

36. Dean would've been a great candidate...

The entire tone of the campaign would be different. Iraq would have been the central issue and that might have hit hard at a big weakness of Bush's. But the Republicans would have gone with a different approach. They would talk about Vermont being the most liberal state in the country, borderline socialist, and that Dean couldn't possibly know what real Americans think or how to defend it in the world. Ben and Jerry's would have been a symbol of this election. I'm not sure how well being a governor of Vermont would have played in the heartland or the south.

And then we'd be sitting around wishing we put Wesley Clark up instead of Dean. And if we put Clark up, we'd have wished it was Kerry -- a man with military and legislative experience. No matter who we put up, there were going to be character assassinations and much consternation, because they have nothing to run on.

I still think of the contrast to Clinton in 1996 -- he barely even mentioned Bob Dole in the entire campaign. He had so much to run on.

[sampsonblk]

4. Lashing out at your own, because of bad poll numbers? C'mon.

That's not cool.

How about we all try to think of something we can do to help Kerry.

[Maddy McCall]

29. No, because the OP is probably feeling much like I feel...

Getting sick and tired of all the posts claiming that Dean would be doing much better than Kerry if he had been nominated, which is utter bullshit and serves to do nothing but to divide us.

I am not concerned with the "bad poll numbers." Evidently, many former Dean supporters ARE, because they are the ones to voice their opinions that Dean wouldn't be sucking as badly as Kerry, which, I repeat for the tenth time, is UTTER BULLSHIT. Wishing for a Dean bandwagon will not make it so.

[sampsonblk]

35. I still think Clark was the best man, but not the best campaigner

but that stuff is over. We can re-fight that in December while Kerry is picking his cabinet.

By then I will be glad to argue it. And we will all laugh afterwards.

[Khephra]

5. The media beat Dean

[wndycty]

6. I did not see the media on the ballot. . .

. . .lets just realize Kerry is our candidate and do what we can to help him win. My guy lost, I pay tribute to him every time I post (see sig), however I am happy with the guy we got!

[UpsideDownFlag]

14. you know what he means.

name a network that didnt run "YEAAAAARRRGH!!!" a billion times a day.

[MuseRider]

20. Honestly

anyone who yelled like that in front of cameras would have gotten the same treatment. It was a very dumb move, one of many. He lost.

[UpsideDownFlag]

22. *sigh* then why dont you have a kerry icon instead of DK?

if we're all toeing the party line here. i am really tired of people dissing dean, he revolutionized fundraising and reenergized the party. could we all just get along?

[MuseRider]

25. Did you just look at my avatar

or did the big train picture not register? DK represents what I most believe, Kerry/Edwards are my candidates. Make sense? Hope so. BTW, I have never and will never disrupt this board with silly little posts about "my hero" DK losing because of all the nasty people who just did not get it. K?

[UpsideDownFlag]

26. my apologies. i didnt see your train pic, and am testy about

dean attacks. :thumbsup:

[MuseRider]

32. Thank you.

I am testy about the Dean threads that have been popping up here the last few days. Many of us supported someone else and we swallowed and sucked it up but I keep seeing these threads about Dean and it really pisses off a lot of us who feel just as strongly about who we supported but feel like it is counterproductive to disrupt the work we all have in front of us. These threads just make everyone pissed off and they really need to stop if we are to get anything done for K/E. I am pissed enough as it is with Bush*, I no longer wish to be pissed at other Democrats, at least not until we have the office.

Thanks.

[Blue-Jay]

43. It's not about "attacking" Dr Dean.

Although, many here would equate saying "Dean lost the nomination" with an attack. I love Dean and I supported him, BUT he's no longer a factor in the upcoming election. Dr Dean has given his support to John Kerry, and that's good enough for me.

[MercutioATC]

51. If you had followed the story AT ALL you'd know that it didn't happen that

way.

Dean's supporters were yelling so loud that he had to scream into the microphone just to be heard. The networks filtered out most of the crowd noise to emphasize the scream. They later admitted it.

[MuseRider]

59. I saw it.

So if one does not agree with you it must mean they are uninformed? What is this? Nope, I have been here ignoring everything. Good grief.

[mbali]

61. The networks did NOT filter out the crowd noise

The networks took their audio from the multbox, which was fed directly from Dean's mic, as set up by Dean's own advance staff. The nets always take a direct feed at events such as that one because otherwise the speaker would be drowned out by crowd and other ambient noises. The only way to get clear audio is to get a direct feed through the multbox. This was not a network conspiracy. Dean made an error in judgment and made himself look ridiculous. It happenes. He is not he victim of a vast network conspiracy.

I sincerely doubt the networks "admitted" any such shenanigans since it just didn't happen that way.

[MercutioATC]

64. Oh, no?

http://www.valuejudgment.org/archives/000441.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/26/politics/main596021.shtml

There are more, if you'd like them...

I'm not arguing the "conspiracy" issue in the pickup. However, the networks then chose to play the "scream" without an explanation, making it seem as if Dean was screaming WAY above the level of the crowd.

[Cheswick2.0]

67. bullshit

That was nothing compared to the dirty campaign his own party ran against him. Don't kid yourself.

[Cheswick2.0]

69. DK lost bigger

nah nah...
DK ran right to the end and he still did worse than most of the candidates who dropped out early. How embarrasing is that?

[MuseRider]

87. ???Nah Nah???

Cheswick, nobody mentioned DK but you. I have not seen a constant cropping up of threads talking about how stupid everyone was that did not vote for DK or how he would be doing so much better than Kerry is or how those of us who did not vote for him just did not get it. Each and every one of our candidates is human, thay all said or did something stupid or embarrassing. ?NAH NAH? What the hell is this, kindergarten? Damn, guess you got me. Guess I will go away and lick my wounds now. Puhleeese.

Ches, I like you. Lets not do this OK?

[dsc]

93. That is baldly false

and provably so. Kennedy, while speaking as a surrogate and warm up for Kerry on the very same night, gave exactly as loud a speech as Dean did. I know that due to having seen the speech when it was given and once in replay. It us utterly false to say other wise.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Dean imploded before that.

It started two or three weeks before that. Remember, he yelled "YEEAAAAAAAARGH" after he came in third place in the Iowa caucus.

[Cheswick2.0]

68. do you really want to go there again?

I have barely forgiven the party or Kerry for the Osama adds.

[LoZoccolo]

78. Bush* would be running them against Dean now.

Whether or not the editing where they cut from Dean to Osama really has the mind-controlling effect people say it does (or even if it was intended to have the mind-controlling effect) is a separate issue I don't want to get into, but right now Bush* could be saying that Dean has no national security experience, like the ads say, and things would probably be worse.

[Cheswick2.0]

83. this is a total waste of time

I think Dean would be a better candidate and I am NOT going to argue with you about it.

[LoZoccolo]

86. Why did you even post the first response then?

You can't blame any of us for having the opinion we do, seeing as we haven't the priviledge of being granted these reasons you all have, so I don't think these people that think Dean would be better should post anything really assertive to that effect because it might hurt our feelings.

[emulatorloo]

say it enough times and it will become true?

Stop blaming Dem party for what was more likely than not Repug Karl Rove pot stirring.

Standard repug operating procedure.

Kerry campaign denounced Osama ad. . .all the rest repug chuck colson style "dirty tricks" coming from repuglicans to discredit both Kerry and Dean campaigns.

[Cheswick2.0]

84. the Kerry campaign paid for the Osama adds

and you are wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.
You got your candidate, stop trying to bully everyone into group think.

[Dookus]

8. The same

media that made him the frontrunner?

Dean lost. He lost spectacularly. Blaming the media is childish. If he didn't know how to handle the media in the primaries, there's no reason to think he'd handle the media well in the general election.

Dean lost because people didn't vote for him. That's the only important fact.

[Khephra]

11. The media had to pay attention to him because of his supporters

They would have never paid attention to him at all if he wasn't doing something extraordinary. Once he started ignoring the "politics as usual" script, he had to be brought down pdq. Also, If you'll remember, Dean was also the only candidate attacked by the DLC. Nice Democrats, those folks.

Yeah, Kerry beat Dean, but he sure had a lot of help in doing it. Some of it was the media, some of it was party "insiders" and some of it was Dean himself, which I'll be the first to admit.

Look, flame away in another direction. I didn't post in the other "Dean" thread that's up right now. But I will defend Dean. I'm behind Kerry all the way.

[wndycty]

15. Well you do know this is not a Dean bashing thread. . .

. . .its a thread bashing those who chose to put down our nominee thinking Dean would have been better. I really truly believed in Clark, but he did not have what it took to beat Kerry, neither did the rest of them. So lets just rally behind JK!

[Khephra]

17. Shakes hand...

No problem...my blood pressure can't stand anymore interparty BS anyway.

As they used to say on The State, "IIIIIIIIIII'm Outttta Heeeeere!"

;-)

[UpsideDownFlag]

16. i'll take your sigline into consideration for the remainder of this thread

[w13rd0]

21. And now they are tearing into Kerry...

...in big bloody chunks. Hey, forewarned is forearmed, or maybe not.

[mdmc]

7. this too will pass

we have a great shot of winning.

[Kolesar]

9. We did not need a whole 'nuther thread to discuss this...eom

[jonnyblitz]

no shit. people need to grow some thick skin. n/t

[Kolesar]

23. Hey, Jonny, haven't seen you since the October antiwar rally

How's stuff?:hi:

[lapfog_1]

10. Yes, let's not "misunderestimate" Kerry!

I liked Dean too. And would have supported him just as much as
I am Kerry. And while I didn't really get to see much of Clark
before the primaries were "over", I liked what I saw of him and
I love what he has been doing for Kerry since.

We have a deep bench. What do they have? Zell? Arnold?
Rudy? Please.

And, hopefully, we will get big dawg back before the final
two weeks.

[mbali]

33. Dean himself said as much:

Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont who lost the Democratic nomination to Mr. Kerry, said Democrats were overreacting, noting Mr. Kerry's come-from-behind victories against William Weld in the 1996 race for Senate in Massachusetts and Mr. Kerry's decisive defeat of Dr. Dean in Iowa.

"They've been very aggressive and they've really turned withering fire on John Kerry and clearly we have to respond to that," Dr. Dean said. "I tell you, I'm the one person in America other than Bill Weld that knows John Kerry can respond."

New York Times, September 5, 2004

[UpsideDownFlag]

12. flaimbate.

dont taunt the deaniacs.

[wurzel]

13. Who said Kerry is a bad candidate? The Media??

He has a temporary problem with clarifying his Iraq position. It will pass. But I know of no Dem candidate who could have withstood the garbage that the Repukes have thrown as well as he. He preserved his financial ammunition under great temptation. Now he has a level playing field. (mixed Metaphor I know).

[AmerDem]

18. Did you really need to continue this line of discussion?

That one post ( making reference between Kerry and Dean ) wasn't enough I take it!:wtf:

[oasis]

19. No mas por favor.

:grouphug:

[Rabelais]

24. another sore winner

how is this thread productive?

[wndycty]

34. Sore winner? My guy (Clark) lost. . .so now I have a new guy...

. . .and I could not be happier with him!

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

27. he beat Dean..whoop do doo...actually Dean would be doing worse.

...Dean was a loser, too.

[MercutioATC]

53. At least Dean was consistent.

I hope Kerry wins but if he does it certainly won't be because he's consistent.

[Cheswick2.0]

70. Dean would be doing better

nah nah

[White Mountain]

28. Dean's a Loser in 2004.... Let's "move on" <eom>

[madfloridian]

42. Here is my reply to the Dean is a loser part.

I have tried very hard, just because I really care about my country, not to be critical of Kerry. I have several times posted forum nanny type threads asking Deaniacs to lay off posts like we are seeing today. Dean is NOT the nominee. He is still working hard though.

I have read some of the ugliest posts today, and they have in an ugly way attacked Dean supporters in general and Dean himself viciously. He has been called a coward, a liar, a loser, and many other things. I am not going to even try to make peace anymore.

I AM going to post the primary schedule again in text form. I am going to put a line across it when Dean dropped out, and I would like for everyone to quit calling him a loser. This chart makes it very clear that our nominee was chosen by the very early states, very small states, not representative of the larger coastal states. It is not right. It would be nice to have people quit calling us losers.

I highlighted the ones in March because that is when Florida, New York, and California had their primaries. Dean was out by then. He was not campaigning much after NH either. Winners should be gracious to losers, even if MOST of us got no chance to vote.

January 13th, 2004 District of Columbia Presidential Primary (Closed)
January 19th, 2004 Iowa Democratic Caucuses
The rally, better known as the scream, was played hundreds and hundreds of times. Dean was declared crazy by the media.

January 27th, 2004 New Hampshire Presidential Primary (Closed)

February 3rd, 2004 Arizona Presidential Preference Election (Closed)
Delaware Democratic Presidential Primary (Closed)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Democratic Caucuses
North Dakota Democratic Caucuses

Oklahoma Presidential Primary (Closed)
South Carolina Democratic Presidential Preference Primary

February 7th, 2004 Michigan Democratic Presidential Caucuses
Washington Democratic Caucuses

February 8th, 2004 Maine Democratic Caucuses

February 10th, 2004 District of Columbia Republican Presidential Preference Caucuses
Tennessee Presidential Primary (Open)
Virginia Democratic Presidential Primary (Open)

February 14th, 2004 District of Columbia Democratic Caucuses
Nevada Democratic Caucuses

The DAY before WI Dean's campaign manager Steve Grossman left him and went directly to Kerry VERY PUBLICLY.

February 17th, 2004 Wisconsin Presidential Primary (Open)
Dean dropped out on the 18th, but he was no longer actively campaigning even then.
The state below the line never got to vote for a full slate of candidates at all. It should not be that way. None of our guys should be called losers!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

February 24th, 2004 Hawaii Democratic Caucuses
Idaho Democratic Caucuses
Utah Democratic Presidential Primary

March 2nd, 2004 California Presidential Primary (Modified Closed)
Connecticut Presidential Primary (Closed)
Georgia Presidential Preference Primary (Open)
Maryland Presidential Primary (Closed)
Massachusetts Presidential Primary
Minnesota Democratic Caucuses
Minnesota Republican Caucuses
New York Presidential Primary (Closed)
Ohio Presidential Primary (Open)
Rhode Island Presidential Preference Primary
Vermont Presidential Primary (Open)

March 9th, 2004 Florida Presidential Primary (Closed)
Louisiana Presidential Preference Election
Mississippi Presidential Primary (Open)
Texas Presidential Primary (Open)
Washington Republican Caucuses

March 13th, 2004 Kansas Democratic Caucuses

March 16th, 2004 Illinois Presidential Primary (Open)

March 20th, 2004 Alaska Democratic Caucuses
Wyoming Democratic County Caucuses

March 23rd, 2004 Utah Republican Caucuses

April 13th, 2004 Colorado Democratic Caucuses
Colorado Republican Caucuses

April 27th, 2004 Pennsylvania Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 4th, 2004 Indiana Presidential Primary (Open)
North Carolina Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 8th, 2004 Wyoming Republican State Convention
Arizona Republican State Convention

May 11th, 2004 Nebraska Presidential Primary (Open)
West Virginia Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 15th, 2004 Wyoming Democratic State Caucus

May 18th, 2004 Arkansas Presidential Primary (Open)
Kentucky Presidential Primary (Closed)
Oregon Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 25th, 2004 Idaho Presidential Primary (Open)

June 1st, 2004 Alabama Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Republican Primary
South Dakota Presidential Primary (Closed)

June 8th, 2004 Montana Presidential Primary (Open)
New Jersey Presidential Primary

[saracat]

49. God, this really pisses me off.

So you don't like the primary system? Say so then.This is how we always choose our candidates.You might as well say that a majority of the states NEVER have picked a candidate.This was an early win. So what? All the candidates knew the system and played it the way they saw fit.It is politics, folks.It is like a chess game and Dean called the wrong plays. Why is it considered so heinous to say Dean lost? He did lose.And so did eight others. and I don't see any of the other candidates supporters whining about how different things would have been if their candidate had won. If Carol Mosely Braun had won, we'd be facing completely different smears, but we would be smeared. The smear campaign was preemptively being prepared for each of them just in case.Dean would have been at the top of their list and I don't think you would want to go where they would have taken his reputation. There is no one beyond the power of slime. So stop replaying the primary and get with the program. John Kerry is going to be the next President of the United States whether you like it or not.

[madfloridian]

52. Then people should stop calling him and the others losers.

You think it is ok that one state mainly is getting to choose our nominee? This is the first year of Terry Mac's frontloaded primaries. I do not think these two states should have more power than CA, FL, and NY....do you really?

The primaries were rushed up this year, but even without that....every person in every state should have a right to vote for their candidate.

I never ever ever said that Dean would not be attacked. Others said that. I used to try to make peace, but I am not going to be called a loser anymore.....not when the 3 largest states never got to vote.

[saracat]

60. Then you are really just protesting the primary system.

And you aren't being called a "loser" because your candidate lost. This is the system that we have always used albeit moved up so you ought to be protesting the primary system. Like the electoral college until the method is changed those who are most skillful at this kind of political chess will win. And as far as voting goes, the same should apply to the general election and yet it doesn't. And usually the east coast has decided the election before we in the west have turned in out ballots! That has happened every single time I have worked the board for a general election here in Arizona.People here always think their vote doesn't count because often it doesn't.It almost makes you want to pitch the ballots. The election is done and you haven't even dropped your precincts votes off.It is idiotic but there is no such thing as fair!This isn't about Dean anymore than it is anybody else. Maybe we need to change the system!

[LizW]

90. Oooh, our guy is down -- let's kick Dean!

You people are scaring me now. This is the best you can do when faced with a bump in the road? Jump on the guy from your own party who, by the way, has done more than you ever thought of doing for the candidate and the Democratic Party?

I'm not talking to the newbies. They don't know any better. But you people who were here in the primary battle do know better.

Cut it out, dammit.

And I meant to reply to the OP, by the way. Sorry madflo.

[White Mountain]

65. "It would be nice to have people quit calling us losers."

For the Record:

I said Dean is a loser. A fact. He lost the nomination. I made no comments about Dean supporters. I made no comment about you.

I did say we need to move on beyond the primary "what ifs" to the reality of the two months before us.

So, I stand by my statement as written.

[Cheswick2.0]

71. your statement was rude and intentional flame bait

[MercutioATC]

55. Hmm, I'd define "Loser" as somebody who takes potshots at people

who aren't around to defend themselves...especially when they're working so hard to support their previous opponents.

...that's just MY definition, though.

:grr:

[White Mountain]

66. "I'd define "Loser" as somebody who takes potshots at people"

Try using a dictionary rather than making up your own. I was using the dictionary definition. Dean lost the presidential primary. He is a loser, we need to move on to November.

Hope that clarifies my post.

[MercutioATC]

89. Yes, it definitely tells me where you stand.

Unless you were raised by wolves, you must realize that saying "Dean lost the primary" and "Dean is a Loser" (with the capital "L") have different connotations. You chose "Loser".

Believe me, I see where you're coming from.

[alcuno]

30. Joe Trippi said it was like beating a triple A ball team.

They are in the majors now.

[mzmolly]

31. I hope he'll use the same dirty tactics against our greater enemy *Bush*

that he used to take down Dean in the primaries. Kerry didn't run a clean campaign in the primaries, he went after Dean hard ... they also had the infamous Osama ad, just before the elections, and a tape of Dean slamming the Iowa primaries.

Also keep in mind that Gephardt was running negative ads against Dean in the primaries and visa versa, Kerry benefited from that.

Kerry won, but negative campaigning played a role in that win.

I won't second guess Kerry in the frame work of Dean would be doing better, personally. But, you can bet we'd be hearing that from Kerry supporters were the shoe on the other foot.

[madfloridian]

37. Don't like posts like this. Here is primary schedule. Dean out Feb. 18

I highlighted the ones in March because that is when Florida, New York, and California had their primaries. Dean was out by then. He was not campaigning much after NH either. Winners should be gracious to losers, even if MOST of us got no chance to vote.

January 13th, 2004 District of Columbia Presidential Primary (Closed)
January 19th, 2004 Iowa Democratic Caucuses
Iowa Republican Caucuses

January 27th, 2004 New Hampshire Presidential Primary (Closed)

February 3rd, 2004 Arizona Presidential Preference Election (Closed)
Delaware Democratic Presidential Primary (Closed)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Democratic Caucuses
North Dakota Democratic Caucuses
North Dakota Republican Caucuses
Oklahoma Presidential Primary (Closed)
South Carolina Democratic Presidential Preference Primary

February 7th, 2004 Michigan Democratic Presidential Caucuses
Washington Democratic Caucuses

February 8th, 2004 Maine Democratic Caucuses

February 10th, 2004 District of Columbia Republican Presidential Preference Caucuses
Tennessee Presidential Primary (Open)
Virginia Democratic Presidential Primary (Open)

February 14th, 2004 District of Columbia Democratic Caucuses
Nevada Democratic Caucuses

February 17th, 2004 Wisconsin Presidential Primary (Open)
Dean dropped out on the 18th

February 24th, 2004 Hawaii Democratic Caucuses
Idaho Democratic Caucuses
Utah Democratic Presidential Primary

March 2nd, 2004 California Presidential Primary (Modified Closed)
Connecticut Presidential Primary (Closed)
Georgia Presidential Preference Primary (Open)
Maryland Presidential Primary (Closed)
Massachusetts Presidential Primary
Minnesota Democratic Caucuses
Minnesota Republican Caucuses
New York Presidential Primary (Closed)
Ohio Presidential Primary (Open)
Rhode Island Presidential Preference Primary
Vermont Presidential Primary (Open)

March 9th, 2004 Florida Presidential Primary (Closed)
Louisiana Presidential Preference Election
Mississippi Presidential Primary (Open)
Texas Presidential Primary (Open)
Washington Republican Caucuses

March 13th, 2004 Kansas Democratic Caucuses

March 16th, 2004 Illinois Presidential Primary (Open)

March 20th, 2004 Alaska Democratic Caucuses
Wyoming Democratic County Caucuses

March 23rd, 2004 Utah Republican Caucuses

April 13th, 2004 Colorado Democratic Caucuses
Colorado Republican Caucuses

April 27th, 2004 Pennsylvania Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 4th, 2004 Indiana Presidential Primary (Open)
North Carolina Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 8th, 2004 Wyoming Republican State Convention
Arizona Republican State Convention

May 11th, 2004 Nebraska Presidential Primary (Open)
West Virginia Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 15th, 2004 Wyoming Democratic State Caucus

May 18th, 2004 Arkansas Presidential Primary (Open)
Kentucky Presidential Primary (Closed)
Oregon Presidential Primary (Closed)

May 25th, 2004 Idaho Presidential Primary (Open)

June 1st, 2004 Alabama Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Republican Primary
South Dakota Presidential Primary (Closed)

June 8th, 2004 Montana Presidential Primary (Open)
New Jersey Presidential Primary

January 1-March 20, 2004 Maine Republican Caucuses
June 4-6, 2004 Hawaii Republican Convention
April 29 - May 1, 2004 Nevada Republican State Convention
May 14-15 Delaware Republican State Convention
May 20-22, 2004 Alaska Republican State Convention
May 21-22, 2004 Michigan Republican State Convention
June 4-6, 2004 Virginia Republican State Convention

No Caucus/Primary
Kansas Republican Party
South Carolina Republican Party

[Blue-Jay]

38. I'm buying wndycty a beer tomorrow.

Name your poison, you magnificent, brass-balled bastard!

[LoZoccolo]

39. There is no reason to think that Dean would be doing better.

The implication is, I suppose, that Dean would attack Bush* more. Dean attacked Bush* more back in the primaries and didn't poll as well against Bush* as Kerry did. Also, nothing is stopping Dean from attacking Bush* as much as he wants right now, and he isn't.

Come to think of it, nothing's stopping any of us from attacking Bush*, so all these people complaining about the dynamics of this election can go and do whatever they want themselves.

P.S. I was a Dean supporter.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. I think he would be

I have pleanty of reasons. But I don't need to post a thread about it. If you will notive there was ONE thread saying that and it was by someone very new.

[LoZoccolo]

77. You'll never hear us saying it without reasons, though.

That's why it would be good for Dean if you would break us off one.

[Cheswick2.0]

79. why do you want to continue the flame war?

I think Dean would be a better candidate. Get over it.

[LoZoccolo]

80. That's what I want to know.

I take it that'll be the last post you'll add to this thread or any other thread on this topic, in the interest of stopping the flame war then.

[Cheswick2.0]

82. It would not be wise to "take it" that I will do anything in particular

but lets just keep kicking this thread shall we?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catbert836]

44. Amen!

I was a deaniac but I think its better just to not complain. what are we gonna do about it?

[Cheswick2.0]

45. the media and the repblican crossover voters beat Dean

but what makes me wonder is ..why was Kerry so willing to go negative on Dean but is affraid of bush?

[TheRovingGourmet]

58. I guess with Dean there was a limit to how far a counter-attack

would go.

[Placebo]

46. Kerry Only Beat Dean Because People HATE BUSH So Much!

And they thought that Kerry had the best chance of beating Bush.

That is the ONLY reason Kerry won.

It definetely isn't his cozy personality or his gravitas.

And besides, most of the democratic party is anti-war, just like dean is and was, and most of the democratic party is far more liberal on most issues, as we should be, where Kerry won't budge if he's elected.

I don't know if Kerry is just a mediocre candidate, or if the Karl Rove Hit Squad was going to slice and dice up ANY dem nominee this year, but hell, we have to get back on track. And we'll all be kicking ourselves if we lose for going with the 'safe' candidate who 'looks like a president' and 'is a war hero' because we see how well all that is working out for us. :eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

47. and Dean kicked Clark's butt....lets not forget

he dropped out weeks before Clark and still did better in the primaries.
DO we really want to replay all of this?
The person who started the Dean thread may or may not be sincere, but he/she is a newbie. I happen to agree with him/her, however I would never start that thread. You should know better too.

[kiahzero]

57. They both won one primary... how does that constitute

"kick<ing> Clark's butt?"

[Cheswick2.0]

73. count delegates

BTW, I was just responding in kind to the original poster.

[wndycty]

91. Hey my guy lost. . .I'll admit that. . .

. . .I am not making this a Clark vs. Dean thing. LOL

[WillyT]

48. More Signs Of Panic At DU... Great...

:wtf:

THIS HELPS HOW... EXACTLY???

That's to my fellow Deaniacs too, BTW!!!

[nomaco-10]

54. Not just Howard. Bob Graham, Dennis Kucinich and even Wesley Clark.....

as a VP, could have done better. You know it, and we all know it now. Think about it!

Do I sense some buyer's remorse around here? Surprise, surprise. NOT.

[nomaco-10]

56. What a pathetic attempt to smear Dean! Kerry is botching this election...

and you know it, or you would not be evoking the name of Dean. Dean, the only fresh air of truth and democracy we've had in nearly four years. Who is next?, the "big dawg", Bob Graham, Kucinich or will you just attack Max Cleland and Bob Kerrey next, in order to make Kerry look good?

We might as well face it now or November......

[mellowinman]

62. Dean good man.

Kerry good man. Clark good man...

Bush BAD MAN.

Any questions?

[Nicholas_J]

63. Pretty much correct.

Kerry beat Dean. And beat him quite easily. The only thing that Dean had going for him was that he was suposedly the outsider, not like all of those Washinton guys, yet he was endorsed by a lot ot lontine Whasington Insiders, and finally when he got the endorsement of the unlimate Washinton Insider, Al Gore, he losat much of his credibility as the Dark Horse, the outsider. He became at them moment, just another political insider, a DLC man (after all Dean was a member of the DLC as Governor, was appointed by the DLC to head the Democratic Governors Association, and to ran the show for trying to select Governors to run against Republicans to try to have Democrats unseat in 2000 and in 2002, and really failed dismally at this, as he was more interested in trying to determine if he was going to run for the presidency himself, and neglected working hard enough on the job assigned to him, to get Democratic Governors elected.

It is pretty much sour grapes, Dean could not beat Kerry, this simply translates into Dean being unable to beat Bush. Dean was simply evn more attackable on any number of positions than Kerry was, His inconsistant stance on Iraq (he said he would invade unilaterally for many months, and only became the candidate who was completely against invasion after Bush invaded, supporting Biden Lugar, which only differed from the resolution finally passed in one way. BIdne Lugar allowed everything that the resolution which passed did exceot for one thing. Biden Lugar opposed regime change in Iraq, Only difference. They would have torn Dean another orafice for that one, especially if Biden Lugan passed, as Biden Lugar gave exactly the same powers to Bush, and set exactly the sam constraints regaring going to the U.N. and exhausting peaceful measures first. Just Like the October resolution, All Bush had to do was present Confgress with his reasons for attacking Iraq within 48 hours of makiing that attack if he beleived that Iraq constituted an imminent threat to the U.S. He didnt need to provide proofs under Biden Lugar, only give his reasons and suspicions. Only difference, once the war in Iraq enede, we would have to leave Saddam in power. Think Bush would not have mad great political capital out of that one. Go to war, attack Saddam, find no WMD's but hundreds of thousands in mass graves, and have to leave him in power. that would have been an interesting campaign to watch, as Bush and his cronies point out that Dean wnated to leave a mass murderer in power.

And Deans total repeal of the Bush tax cuts, including the middle class cuts (which every economist, and the OMB stated actually did occur, and that Deans claims that the middle class did not get a tax cut was in no way provable by the actual figures), would have been the coup de grace. While the average person has seen their local taxes go up, cancelling the effect of theBush tax cuts for the middle class, by simply shifting the taxation from the federal to ther state and local levels, Deans repeal of the Bush tax cuts would ADD even more taxation on top of the higher taxes that resulted from the cuts to fuding to the states that came along with the Bush tax cuts. Repealing those cuts, and starting to send money to the states again would not result in the lowering of all of those state taxes, as the states have run up massive deficits over the last 4 years that still need to be paid off before the states can even begin to think about lowering local taxes, and besides this, such repeals would no occur immediately, meaning that Deans repeal of the Bush tax cuts would result in massive burdens on the middle class and poor, while the sttes and localities began to have to watch what happend as they started getting more federal finds, and only after a few years would they start thinking about lowering those local taxes. The result would drive even more middle class families into poverty than the Bush tax cuts themselves did.

Bush could easily say that Howard Dean wants to raise your taxes, and Dean would not have any argument against it.

The repeal of the tax cuts themselves would not be enough to fund Denas supposed health care programs, would would be among the first things that would be killed under Deans first principal. to balance the budget. And the OMB analysed Deans proposal and stated that his plan would end up costing many times the 88 billion a year he claimed it would cost. But then again, Deans health care programs in Vermont eneded up costing far more than he originally estimated, to the degree that they reached the point of nearly bankrupting Vermont even before the Bush Administration started cutting funding to the state. A report ordered by Dean himself in 2000 led to the conclusion that Deans health proposals had realced the point of requireing so much of the budget that they threatened to shut down the government for lack of money to run anyting else.

Dean may have had good ideas, but they simply would have remained ideas, as they usually did with Dean, as his usual retort to having to cut programs that he hinself had promised revolved around balancing the budget.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. oh for God's sake get over it

Most people prefered Dean to Kerry until the media and the party decided they had to do him in.

[Snellius]

75. The DLC crowd were terrified of Dean

As soon as Dean threaten to purge the DLC/Shrum/Al From crowd when he took over, the heavy hitters in the Dem machine turned against him.

[WI_DEM]

76. This thread is counter productive too

Just because one person starts a "Howard Dean would be twenty points ahead" thread we now get three or four "Dean isn't the nominee, so there" threads. Neither is productive and both types cause disharmony.

[Cheswick2.0]

81. and that person(who started the Dean thread) was a newbie

There are some long time posters who want to continue the fight for no good reason.

[molly]

85. They won't ever get over it - read the posts

:shrug: where would Dean be now in the polls?

The two out of three favorites are on the ticket.

[Bread and Circus]

88. I don't think Kerry beat Dean, I think Saddam's capture beat Dean...

As spartan of a fighter Dean is, I still think Kerry is a better choice to have as the nominee right now.

OTOH, Kerry should have gotten Dean into his campaign or the DNC somehow. Dean is an asset, "the scream" non-withstanding.

Dean's revolution, if it were supported by the DNC powers that be, would have had a long lasting goal of really getting back the house and senate.

That's the difference between Dems and the Repubs...the Dems play it safe while the Repubs go for blood.

[dsc]

92. Then if someone who supported Dean decides to criticise

Kerry's campaign don't bring Dean up. I posted two threads about Kerry's campaign. Neither one mention Dean except in passing. Yet well over half the responses were about Dean. Sorry, but in many cases, though not all, it isn't the critics of Kerry bringing up Dean.

[Moderator]

94. Locking....

This thread is flamebait and this subject
has been discussed in numerous threads
since last night. Let's give this a rest.


Thank you.


DU Moderator