Hey, whiners! Howard Dean ISN'T the nominee

[0rganism]

Face it. Neither are Clark, Kucinich, Sharpton, or anyone else. Face that hard, cold fact. Stop hoping for a miracle to happen. John Kerry is the nominee and he needs our support.

Fuck the hypotheticals, whether you like Sen. Kerry or not, whether you think he's running a crappy campaign or not, just stow the shit. You think things are moving to slow? Get your ass right on down to the Kerry Campaign HQ and volunteer. You think bush is leading in the polls because of a misinformed public? Then get your feet on the street and TALK to the people. You wonder why there aren't any Kerry ads playing in your state? Get your credit card out and head over to one of the many Democratic-oriented 527s who will gladly accept your financial assistance in spreading the message.

I think you whiners with the "Dean would be up by 20 points right now" stories are full to the brim with shit of the lamest sort. NO ONE would be up 20 points on bush right now. Not Dean, not Clark, not Graham, not anyone. bush is tough and popular and won't go down that easy, not right after the convention. Hell, NO ONE would be even with bush right now. The whore media would see to that. They want a tight race with an energized republican base to bump the ratings, and will do what it takes to get that result. John Kerry is doing just as well as any other potential nominee could have done, under the circumstances. You think I'm wrong? Prove it. Prove it right now.

Guess what, you CAN'T do it! And that statement has just as much validity as your whining about how much better some other candidate's campaign would be performing.

There's a seat at a John Kerry phonebank with your name on it, and where the fuck are you? You're AWOL. It's that simple. Every minute you spend complaining about the Kerry campaign on this or any other forum is 60 seconds of valuable work you just threw in the shitcan.

Get Active, or at the very least stop fucking with the morale of the people who are.

Thank You Very Much.

[mark414]

1. amen!

to paraphrase:

everyone shut up!

[liberalnurse]

69. I bet 99.9% are trollers.......

who are trying to spam the board......

[murielm99]

2. Thanks, Organism.

I worked at our Democratic Central Commmittee headquarters today from 9-1.

I was amazed at how many loyal Democrats I had to reassure about that stupid poll. These are people who are doing actual work, too!

We all need to get a grip.

But I really do think that some of the gloom and doom in here was trolling. I have hit alert several times lately. We will weed them out and get back to work.

Kerry won because he is the best candidate. He will make a great President.

[Chicken George]

7. I was just on a thread where I recognized a wingnut from

...a radical right board chiming in with an "lol"...yes the trolls are a big part of the negativity...

[IndianaGreen]

3. The problem is the candidate, not the volunteers or the campaign

Hard to make inroads when the candidate is shooting himself in the foot, as he did when he said he would have voted for IWR even if he had known what we all know today, or when every time Kerry speaks about an issue we have to have a plethora of people try to explain what the candidate meant to say.

Kerry has to say what he means, and mean what he says. Kerry should ditch anything that is open to interpretation from his lexicon!

[Toblerone]

4. Here, Here!!!

need to get the troops motivated, let's go do it people!

[Droopy]

9. Welcome to DU, Toblerone

Glad to have you aboard. :toast:

[MontecitoDem]

8. I have to agree

I'm working at the Kerry office coordinating volunteers - so no one tell me to go work for him. I am. Tirelessly. nevertheless, he IS shooting himself in the foot and it sucks. I'm not saying any other candidate would be doing better either. But he needs to start saying things in a more concrete way. He can't leave us mystified, or sorting through things, if he plans to win this. Like his speech on Thursday night.... Arrgh.

[saracat]

14. His speech on thursday was fabulous.

The best he has ever given! And I don't like most of his speeches. Did you actually watch it? If so. I can't imagine what you saw!

[MontecitoDem]

22. yes, I ACTUALLY watched it.

The whole sh-bang on Cspan even.

He had a couple of strong statements that were great, but he also rambled on. He has trouble arriving at a point.

For instance, he said something like "This is the most important election of your lives, and let me tell you why." and then, instead of telling us that we are losing our democracy, losing our constitutional rights, becoming an imperial nation both financially and militarily, he started on this long winded thing about some kid selling bracelets, and some guy saluting his train at sunset, and some folks standing out in the dark at 12:30 am to see him speak. Huh?

For Kerry, I grant you it was not bad. But truthfully, that isn't saying a whole hell-of-alot.

And just to reiterate, I'm working hard for him, agree with lots of his domestic agenda and environmental policies, etc.

[saracat]

47. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I LOVED the stories about the train, and the kid and the bracelets.I thought that they were inspiring and human.He turned the campaign over to us in the sense he made us a part of it .He made it our race as much as his and that makes everything that more poignant.I can't imagine a Bush race being anything other than about him.I thought he outspoke Edwards and that is saying a lot!But we each have our own take and we each are doing what we can to take the WH back.

[MontecitoDem]

51. Oh, I agree he was better than edwards!

definitely!

I guess I had very high hopes for this speech after reading that it was going to be "gloves off." Like everyone else here, I can't imagine a world in which George Bush gets re-elected - simply makes me ill to think about it. So I have some pretty high standards for Kerry - so much is riding on this!

After all my cheerleading for Kerry all during the day, I guess I needed to voice some dismay. Thanks for listening and for your reasoned response!

[saracat]

52. No Problem. Thank you. It's great to have

a civil exchange on this board.Maybe we even learned something! And now , I must get some rest so I can resume my cheerleading this morning!

[Julien Sorel]

10. Everything is open to interpretation.

There's no way around it. Kerry could certainly be more straightforward in his speech, but that has its drawbacks as well. When I read the texts of his speeches, they seem fairly straightforward, although lacking in flair and imagery. But they don't look overly parsed, as he's been accused of. The only position he has taken that needs explaining is the IWR, and that shouldn't need to be explained to any person of reasonable intelligence who isn't deliberately refusing to get it.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

12. I am in the back of the ABB bus

and if it weren't for the progressives that are voting against Bush, Kerry would be 20 points behind in the polls.

Thank you for the smear, it reveals a lot about you!

I'll bet some of you will blame Dean if Kerry loses the election!

[JI7]

15. i'm a progressive and i'm voting FOR Kerry

just as i did in the primary.

not sure what the smear is, it's just a fact as taken from your posts.

[IndianaGreen]

18. I am voting AGAINST Bush

and I am against the war in Iraq, and I will oppose any President that refuses to end the war and bring the troops home.

[JI7]

24. i wonder why that wasn't a big issue in the primary for you

[IndianaGreen]

27. I voted for Kucinich in the primary

so I don't know what you are driving at, and I don't care!

[Cheswick2.0]

68. What exactly makes you a "progressive"?

[madfloridian]

17. Yes, she is. So am I.

But it would be a hell of lot easier not to be made fun of all the time, and it would help not to be called loser.

That is a shameful thing for Dems to call each other. It is terrible and it is hurting the party.

[0rganism]

16. John Kerry is one man. John Edwards is one man. The campaign is thousands.

John Kerry is NOT going to be able to do this on his own.

Hell, do you think George W. Bush is doing it on his own? NO! He has LEGIONS coming out of the woodwork to support him. He shoots himself in his foot, hell, his head, every time he opens his stupid mouth. And guess what? His campaign is running strong because it's a campaign of thousands (of rich white SOBs, but that's largely beside the point).

WE need your help. Not just John Kerry. Not just a few elites at the DNC. Me, myself, and EVERY OTHER VOLUNTEER need you helping out right now. I know your work, IG, you're a friggin' LEGEND on this board. The campaign could use your help. But I can guarantee you this: John Kerry's patterns of speach will not change overnight, even if he reads your post, prints it out, nails it to his wall, and says it with his rosary 7 nights a week.

If you don't want to be in the official campaign, there's other stuff that needs doing. Run a guerilla leafletting action on your own time, or SOMETHING. At the VERY LEAST, don't come in here and talk us down, cos we have enough work to do without reading about what a lousy job we're doing in the forum where we come for support.

[mbali]

19. Also, Bush's people don't publicly dog him out

[madfloridian]

20. Well, then quit putting us down and calling us losers.

It is just that simple.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

34. Excuse me?

I can not believe I am being talked to like this on a Democratic forum. I am supporting John Kerry, and have donated a sizable sum. We are active here.

What the hell do you want? Blood?

[madfloridian]

36. And stop lecturing me.

.

[IndianaGreen]

35. We have our hands full in Indiana, Organism

We have our own JK here. His name is Joe Kernan, incumbent Governor, Vietnam war hero, former POW. He is running against a chicken hawk, Mitch Daniels, former lobbyist for drug giant Eli Lilly, former Reagan staff member, and Bush's former budget director at OMB. The race is very tight with a large number of undecideds. How a lightweight like Daniels is competitive with a proven leader like Kernan is beyond me, but we are working very hard to help Kernan win.

I am also working with my other comrades in the USWA (I am an associate member). The Steelworkers are pouring their efforts in getting new voters to the polls, and all of our members are committed to defeat Bush in 2004.

[0rganism]

41. All right! I'm glad to read that you're active -- actually, I expected it

I wish Indiana were a more competitive state for Kerry; I know you guys have it tough there.

[redstateblues]

5. See Post 97 on the "Honestly, Dean Would be Ahead' Post

Nuff said

[madfloridian]

6. How do you know what we do for Kerry? Stop calling us names!!

We have worked hard here for him. I have tried to make peace here, but tonight I gave up. I have been called a loser way way too many times.

Dean is busting his butt for this party, and we are donating and working to get progressive candidates in.

And we get called names.

Stop calling me a whiner. Stop calling other people names, and maybe they will "fall in line" a little better.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

26. I do not criticize Kerry, How dare you say I shit on his campaign.

How dare you!?

This is totally outrageous hatred. I am one who has really tried.

This is about me as a person being called a loser. That is shameful.
Your quote: " Now stop shitting on John Kerry's campaign and do whatever you can to help him win."

Guess what we are doing that.

[0rganism]

31. If you haven't been whining, then why do you identify so strongly with it?

Have you READ the GD2004 forum in the last few days?

Are YOU claiming that some other candidate would be up in the polls right now?

No?

Then it wasn't even about you.

> This is about me as a person being called a loser. That is shameful.

1) I never said ANYONE, let alone madfloridian, was a loser. To do so now would be shameful.

2) Loser is as loser does. If we DON'T get our collective shit together, then WE WILL be losers in a very real sense of the word. Not just madfloridian, not just the people who backed Kerry in the presidential race, but EVERY PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

Don't turn us all into losers. That would be shameful.

[madfloridian]

37. I have not done anything but ask NOT to be called names.

You said I shit on Kerry's campaign, and I never have. Shame on you. Yes, I have been called whiner, martyr, loser, and much worse.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

44. I am not responding to the hysterical part.

That is a way to get people mad. So I won't allow myself to be baited. I just back off and say you won.

You didn't really. You won a battle, but not the war for the hearts of fellow Dems.

[TLM]

67. No this is not about Dean....

This is about the fact that Kerry seems unwilling to go after Bush even half as f-ing hard as he went after Dean.

I for one am more than a little bothered by the way Kerry continues to use the kid gloves on W, yet attacked other dems with such ease only a few short months ago.

[goodwalt]

13. Ease Up Hoss

I saw some of the posts you are responding to, and I agree with you. The Bush slime machine would have had ANYONE on the Democratic side in the same position or worse- probably worse- at this stage. But might I suggest you ease up just a tad on your Democratic brethren? I was- and am- a serious fan of Gov. Dean. I attended meet-ups and donated money because the man inspired me with a no-bullshit style that Sen. Kerry has not yet mastered. Senator Kerry isn't the lesser of two evils for me. I believe him to be a good man, and think he will do a DRAMATICALLY better job as president than the moronic frat boy who currently occupies the office- but I still can't help being wistful about the first Capra-esque, Mr. Smith style candidate I wound up wasting my time and money on. So have a heart fella- ease up a little bit will ya?

[0rganism]

61. Strangely enough, the thread wasn't about Howard Dean, except tangentially

Myself, I was a zealous Kucinich supporter. I busted ass for that guy, even if he only got a few dozen delegates in the end. That's in the past now. You understand this, I think.

Howard Dean is a great guy, and he's doing a lot to remove bush from the whitehouse even now. He's doing that by helping John Kerry, not talking up his own fantasy campaign. There are people on this board who need to follow the example.

> So have a heart fella- ease up a little bit will ya?

I'll ease up on November 3. How's that?

[saracat]

21. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE needs to stop

refighting the primaries. I don't care what you think about about any of the other candidates, pro or con, .Just get Kerry elected. We have only one nominee and we don't need to dis him or any of the other candidates. They all gave it their best shot and are out of it. They support Kerry ,why can't everyone else?

[madfloridian]

25. The others need to quit the name-calling.

If I did it, I would be banned. I don't do it. I do not like being called a loser. This has got to stop.

I have two college degrees, a long background as a teacher, I am an active Democrat....and I get called a loser.

The party does not deserve Dean's being on the road 6 days a week if he is called a loser on a Democratic forum.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Exactly, the brownshirt tactics must stop!

Well said, madfloridian!

[madfloridian]

33. Thank you. It has to stop.

It is like the humiliation tactics used by the GOP. Our own Dems using it against us.

[mbali]

39. The word :"loser" has been used nearly 40 times in

two threads. Funny thing, though - more than nearly 30 of those references were in YOUR posts, as you repeat over and over and over "STOP CALLING ME A LOSER!!!"

Every reference to loser contained in a post other than yours is from other posters saying, "I didn't call you a loser."

You are way over the top here. Stop accusing DUers of calling you names, which no one is doing.

[madfloridian]

45. You need to back off. Now.

.

[Bread and Circus]

30. Hogwash....Kerry needs a kick in the pants...it's not just DU'ers who

say so.

It's a fact. Too much snowboarding and windsurfing has been a problem.

We, the complainers, whiners, or whatevers are theoretically doing Kerry a favor by telling him that which he needs to hear:

"Quite playing nice and fight like a man dammit!"

Links:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/politics/campaign/05campaign.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/arts/05RICH.html

[MontecitoDem]

32. Yea!

A post that makes sense to go to sleep by.
Thanks

[0rganism]

38. You think you're doing Kerry a favor?

I call bullshit.

I don't think you're doing ANYONE a favor by making up stupid crap about "what he needs to hear".

Theoretically, Sen. Kerry DOESN'T EVEN READ THIS FORUM.

A lot of people who work at the lowest levels of his campaign do, and frankly we're sick of the Monday morning quarterbacking. Am I happy with everything Sen. Kerry has done over the course of the campaign? No, but that's not my job. Still, it's one thing to second guess his tactics. It's quite another to write morose demoralizing fairy tales about how well some other candidate would be doing in a parallel universe of your own invention.

The whining must cease. You want Kerry to "fight like a man"? then show him how hard he should fight BY EXAMPLE.

Get it?

[mbali]

40. thank you thank you thank you!

[madfloridian]

43. Why don't you try courtesy toward your fellow Dems?

You know the old flies and honey stuff? It might work instead of being so ugly about it.

I have always tried to be nice, but tonight I saw it did not matter.

You could help by being nicer.

[Cheswick2.0]

70. ".....the lowest levels of his campaign do

and frankly we're sick of the Monday morning quarterbacking."


So you think you can shut people up because you work at the lowest levels of his campaign? Guess again.
This is my party, Unfortunately this is my candidate and I want him to beat bush. If it upsets you to have people disagree with him in public then you really should stop reading DU.

[MontecitoDem]

46. may I politely suggest

that anyone who doesn't like something that is being posted can just leave a thread?

It seems like both "sides" of this argument are just telling each other what is okay or not okay to post.

Perhaps a bit of fresh air? Some sleep?
Or remembering that we (basically, for the most part, well... sort of) are all on the same side?

Go Kerry!
and
Dean's not a loser!



:toast:

[0rganism]

49. May I politely ask...

...where this "Dean/Dean supporters are losers" is coming from?
That's so not the point of this thread.

[MontecitoDem]

50. Yea - I have no idea what that is about

but it's obvious that there's some folks really upset about it. So I just said that He's not a loser. I guess we missed something in another thread that carried over here?

[0rganism]

55. Yeah, I sure missed it, whatever it was

But you probably have the right idea. In retrospect, this thread isn't helping either, and we should probably just cash it in for the night.

[dave123williams]

48. Dean needs to be let off his leash...

He's an attack dog, and Kerry should be using him as such.

[0rganism]

56. I don't think Dean is on a leash

He's doing plenty of stuff already, and doing it quite well -- like the SoS race in Florida. When Sen. Kerry needs his help in a coordinated attack, I'm pretty sure he'll be there -- as all the other various contenders have been already. Like many on this forum, I hope that time is soon.

Dean set the standard by promising to assist whoever the nominee was, if it wasn't him. I think all the Democratic candidates had that tacit agreement, up front.

[WI_DEM]

53. At this point it doesn't help to say Dean would be ahead

or any other person who was running for president. I was/am as big a Dean supporter as any, but right now Kerry is the nominee. Dean is working hard for him and so are many of Dean's former supporters. But I do think there should be more tolerance on DU for sincere democrats who question some of the Kerry campaigns tactics. I know I will be one happy American if Kerry wins on November 2nd. If he loses you know there will be war on DU with enough finger pointing at that time. Supporters of Dean, Clark, and who knows who else will be saying Kerry blew it big time and if their guy had been the nominee things would have been different. We don't need that right now. The election is two months away and there is a lot of time for Kerry to emerge victorious.

[0rganism]

57. Exactly. Let's save the circular firing squads for after the election.

There is a lot of campaign yet to be had, and a lot of work that needs doing. When Nov. 2 rolls around, if Sen. Kerry doesn't win, there will be plenty of time for pissing and moaning.

Right now, it's counterproductive.

[bklyncowgirl]

72. Hear Hear!

Hypethetical "my guy would have been wiping the floor with Bush" ramblings are just nonsence. I don't know what would have happened if anyone else had been the nominee and you don't know either.

The Times today ran a story prominent Democrats expressing doubts about Kerry and oddly, the one prominent Democrat who refused to knock Kerry was Howard Dean saying that he knew better than anyone how quickly Kerry can turn things around.

I think maybe we should all follow Dean's lead and save the buyers remorse for after the election. I'm not saying don't urge the campeign to be tougher but let's not start fighting amoung each other just yet.

[Cheswick2.0]

73. maybe your choice of words : WHINERS

wasn't such a good idea. Gee, now why would anyone be insulted by that?

[Leilani]

54. There is obviously a lot of dissension going on because

people are frustrated right now, & it does not help to try & bully people into happiness.

Let s be honest, Kerry is not running a very effective campaign. He is being pounded & outmanuevered.

And people are worried; this is such a crucial election,& people are afraid that Bush may win.

After the primaries, there was remarkable unity. Except for a few extreme holdouts, everyone rallied behind the Kerry/Edwards ticket. We put our individual desires aside, for the good of the campaign. And most people have worked hard: they have contributed time, energy,& money.

But we cannot win the election for Kerry; he has to do it himself. So try to be a little more patient with discussion & debate. People care deeply about the campaign,so let them air their frustrations & stay involved.

[0rganism]

59. Dissension is fine, but this candidate fantasyland BS is an overindulgence

IMHO, and that's what I'm going on, making up little stories about how the other candidates are beating bush by 20 points in their parallel universes is a waste of valuable time.

If 2000 people at DU each spend 1/4 hour reading and replying in some 100-post thread about fantasy candidacies, that's 500 hours of volunteer work we just lost. And that's what I'm ticked about.

Sen. Kerry will not win this election on his own. He needs grass roots involvment from everyone here. Pouty fairy tales about campaigns that might-have-been-if-only are the purest waste of time I can think of -- and I'm an excellent procrastinator, one of the best if I may say so myself, I know a thing or two about wasting time.

That said, we can't win the race without Kerry, and I don't begrudge constructive criticism of his campaign. This is a great place to consider current events and plot strategy. But if I want to read about parallel universes, there are professional sci-fi writers who do far better storytelling than the morose fiction I read on this forum sometimes.

[MercutioATC]

58. Hey, whiner! We know!

That doesn't stop us from wondering what could have been.

I'm thinking it takes a truckload of insecurity to bash a candidate (and his supporters) who's contributed so much, even after it was apparent that he wouldn't me the nominee.

[0rganism]

60. then stop with the fanstasy candidacy already

Meet reality. Confront it, face it, live it, and stop whining.

I'm thinking it takes a truckload of resentiment and denial to interpret anything I've written here as a bash against a candidate or his/her supporters. Or maybe you didn't even read the initial post and missed the point entirely.

I'm saying stop with the couldabeens. Get to work.

[MercutioATC]

62. Don't you DARE tell me to "get to work".

"I'm thinking it takes a truckload of resentiment and denial to interpret anything I've written here as a bash against a candidate or his/her supporters."

I think it was the "Hey, whiners!" that struck me as a bash. If you don't want to be called on your posts, I'd suggest you exercise a little more judgement before posting them.

I've supported Kerry since it was apparent that he was the nominee. Personally, I think he represents exactly what's wrong with this Party, but I also believe that he's a better choice than Bush.

"Get to work" yourself and give up the Dean-bashing.

[0rganism]

64. Oh, I DARE all right, you'd better believe I dare.

What are you going to do about it? Vote for bush?

> I think it was the "Hey, whiners!" that struck me as a bash.

Yeah it was, to WHINERS. Are you a whiner?

> If you don't want to be called on your posts,
> I'd suggest you exercise a little more judgement before posting them.

If you don't want to be called on yours, I'd suggest you READ the post before drawing conclusions.

> I think he represents exactly what's wrong with this Party,
> but I also believe that he's a better choice than Bush.

Then you know what to do, and it doesn't involve Fantasy Campaigns.

> "Get to work" yourself and give up the Dean-bashing.

You know, it might just be too much to ask for you to stop fantasizing about the hypothetical Dean candidacies, if you can't even stop fantasizing about the contents of my initial post.

[depakid]

63. The inevitable buyers' remorse

would have happened no matter who the candidate was.

What I'm hearing is less about the car we're in than it is about the dealership we're stuck with. As anyone who's ever driven a Toyota knows- fine car- fucked up service.

That being said, this is a winable race- and your admonition- your wake-up call is appreciated.

[0rganism]

65. It's not just the car and the dealership, it's the road

It's funny, nobody was griping like this when Kerry was up by five, and when he's up by five again, the griping will stop.

[depakid]

66. agreed- speed bumps ahead

and they're not on the Thomas guide.

We're dealing with the full force of the Republican smear machine, combined with all of the media assets they've acquired over the past 20 years. To expect smooth sailing is naive- winning this is going to take more than hard work, but it can and will be done this time... despite the current frustrations.

[GOPAgainstGW]

71. AND THANK GOD! - HE'S NOT PRESIDENTIAL MATERIAL - SORRY!!

[Moderator]

74. Locking.....

This is flamebait.



DU Moderator