The Problem With The "Bush's Missing File Story" is that

[redstateblues]

it doesn't go anywhere. They obviously have had his records scrubbed- That's outrageous- but nobody's talking- it's a story with no legs- one or two day at best.

[MGKrebs]

1. I beg to differ.

Who scrubbed the records?
Who asked them or paid them to scrub them?
Did they break the law by scrubbing them?
Why did they scrub them, in other words, what needed to be scrubbed?
Were they able to scrub every copy of every record they intended to?

[redstateblues]

9. But Who's Gonna Investigate- Don't Count On The Media

You make good points if we weren't living in Bizarro world- but as long as this story's been around you'd think something would have shaken loose by now

[volosong]

11. ANOTHER ASSIGNMENT FOR OUR WALT

[MGKrebs]

15. MATT KELLEY ASSOCIATED PRESS

[Kahuna]

17. With all repukes in office, there is no one to investigate what happened

to them. The media feel that they have hit a road block. And that's all there is too it. They don't feel that there is anymore news to print.

[Sparkly]

2. I think the point is that there are more "unreleased" than destroyed

I think they're saying they're "missing" from the pages BushCo released, but haven't been accounted for as destroyed. For example, they released certain types of documents but only for certain years; they haven't said those were destroyed, they've just tried to pass the partial documents off as "we released those forms." That's my understanding, anyway -- am I wrong?

They should keep hammering it, imho.

[amber dog democrat]

6. They would have been destroyed

When he was governor. I remember seeing a story in the Austin American Statesman about this. I can't provide the link.

[MGKrebs]

13. Palast mentions this in his new video.

He says that Keren Hughes made the call to have the records scrubbed, and he interviews a guy who was there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=146x573

[redstateblues]

14. Now were getting somewhere

[Sparkly]

21. But are they saying all missing were destroyed, or some still withheld?

For example: "The government has released copies of those DD Form 44 documents for Bush for 1971 and earlier years but not for 1972 or 1973."

Have they said these were destroyed? Is there a blanket statement that everything not released was destroyed? Or are they saying simply, "We released 'the' DD Form 44 documents" and leaving it at that, ignoring the fact that two years are missing?

That's what I don't understand.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=5&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_el_pr/bush_national_guard

[amber dog democrat]

26. destroyed

specific files from his TANG service were taken from his record and destroyed when governor.

[IguanaKing]

27. This is not only untrue, but impossible.

Records of ANG/AFRC members are stored in St. Louis, MO, not the state in which the member served. A governor of any state could not have them destroyed, he may destroy copies, but the originals would still be there, so its pointless to do so. Military records of public officials are locked away the day that person enters public office. This is both to prevent blackmail, and to prevent said official from altering records of himself of his opponent.

I'll expand on some points made in the archive that have not been answered correctly yet.

(1) "DD-214 with his entire service record revealed"

The DD Form 214 is titled "Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty". Since Bush was in the TXANG, he actually had at least 2 DD-214s in his file, one issued upon completion of BMT (Basic Military Training), and one issued upon completion of UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training). The reason...these were both active duty assignments. The DD-214 of an ANG/AFRC member will not show the character of their entire service, just the character of their service when in that particular active duty assignment.

(2) "DD-256 or DD-258 which are the framable discharge certificates"

Well...I would hardly call a 258AF "frameable", as it was a "Certificate of Discharge Under Other Than Honorable Conditions". However, it is a DD Form 256AF "Honorable Discharge" certificate that was issued to Bush. This is the certificate that would be issued upon honorable completion of an ANG or AFRC obligation, not a DD-214.

(3) "Since the AF 258 discharge falls between the General and the Bad Conduct discharges...it would be the same as the AF(TANG)firing him for very poor service."

Again, it is not a DD Form 258 that is referenced, it is a 256. This is made clear by both the words "Honorable discharge" and the line that says "Authority" AFR 35-41. AFR35-41 was the Air Force Regulation that specified, and was titled "Separation Procedures for Air Force Reserve Personnel". When an ANG member requires disciplinary action, he is sent back to the ANG unit at his home of record.

(4) "Bush has to produce these two documents. Of the two, the DD-214 is the most important since his last duty station will be shown...and it was the disciplinary ANG unit in Colorado(i.e., his last duty station). The disciplinary unit was in place to take unsatisfactory officers and enlisted men and process them for Nam duty. The fact that the war was winding down saved Bush from becoming a Mexican citizen to avoid Nam."

I don't think this statement could be more wrong if it tried...LOL!! There is no disciplinary ANG unit in Colorado, if an ANG member requires disciplinary action, they are punished by the ANG unit at their home of record
The punitive proceedings are handled within that unit, not by the Air Force. The unit you are referring to, HQ ARPC (ISLRS), is the unit to which all USAF/ANG/AFRC members are assigned for inactive reserve duty, it is a normal assignment in any airman's service record. For example, when someone signs on for 4 years in the USAF, they are actually signing on for 8 years...4 on active duty, and 4 with HQ ARPC (ISLRS). I'll bet this information came from 1st Lt. Bob Rogers. Just another little bit of trivia...nobody can retire from the ANG after only 11 years, nor would they have been retained for that long if, in that 11 years, they had not advanced beyond 1st Lt. (O-2) at some point. Thus, this man is not a credible source of information, that is IF he even exists in the first place. Just to clear up his incorrect information, ARF (Air Reserve Forces) points are accrued by all ANG/AFRC personnel. 15 points are awarded gratuitously at the beginning of a particular duty year, and a total of 50 indicates satisfactory service. Bush had a total of 56 points for the FY72-73, so his service was satisfactory

(5) "Upon discharge, all military members are counseled to protect this document for life and never lose it."

Not true, if the author of this quote had actually been in the military he/she would know that this is not true. Bush's DD-214s are still on file, there are at least two, but since he was an ANG member they, in fact, do not "tell all" about the character of his service.

Thanks for reading, I'm not trying to convince anybody one way or the other which way they should cast their vote. I'm simply correcting false assumptions. I am a former USAF veteran and have personal relationships with people at HQ ARPC Denver (DPSS), they examined his records and have found nothing wrong with them. Don't take my word for it though, use the ACCURATE information I gave you to research this yourselves and form your own opinions.

Thanks

[amber dog democrat]

30. Interesting - but my understanding is his records were scrubbed

and I would not put it past his family influence to make that happen. Nor do I believe anything is impossable.

[amber dog democrat]

3. But they cant deny it.

Its just one more item adding weight to the arguement that the Chimp is not to be trusted and has not served creditably.

I see this as a good thing, but not the story that will render his campaing dead in the water.

[Sparkly]

5. That's so true -- adds to a broader, unified argument about Chimp

that he's a phony.

Says one thing / does another.
Pretends to be one thing / is actually another.

THAT should be the message and this should be part of it.

[goclark]

8. Good pt. -we are looking for Dead in the Water Pts

AP and the Media are very slick.
While they are talking about the files,they are not talking about...the body count, the economy,Kerry's magnificent speeches,huge crowds and foot soldiers for Kerry, Bush girlie traits,positive polls in favor of Kerry.

I wish the files were the silver bullet but I'm just not sure.

[rocktivity]

4. Technically, the Kerry military record story had no legs

It was based on lies and a thirty-year-old grudge, but it "ran" anyway. This can, too, especially if the Kerry camp sinks it teeth into it. And don't forget that there's going to be a CBS 60 Minutes story on the subject on Wednesday.

Besides, how else am I going to sell these buttons I'm having made (net proceeds to go to a pro-Kerry group, of course)...



:headbang:
rocknation

[redstateblues]

12. We need one person who knows something- so far nada

[oasis]

23. The Bush camp needs "one person" who can say he wasn't AWOL.

A credible person, and not that ancient Alabama state senator who has trouble "recollecting" the names of his own immediate family.

[Pirate Smile]

7. The Ben Barnes story and Kitty Kelly book which both will deal with

this time will add "legs".

I also remember a person on Hardball talking about how he heard people discussing scrubbing the *'s file and then saw * papers in the trash (it was back when *'s service was a big story). I thought it was going to be a big story and it went nowhere.

Wait until next Monday and we will see if this turns into a big story. The media is always so damn slow in picking up these stories.

[goclark]

10. Media = LIHOP

They are C R A W L I N G until the election.

Crawling for Kerry and so SWIFT for Bush...huuum

[Zookeeper]

29. I remember that story...

and I also thought it would be a big deal. The story just disappeared.

[readmylips]

16. Media branch of Government....Neocons..

When bush hid his Texas records in his poppy's library, the media did shit. Instead, the media attacked Gore for stupid simplistic made up stuff by Rove and criminals.

When Laura Bush herself told Diane Sawyer on TV that she had killed her boyfriend in a car accident, the media said shit. She's not a democrat and she's not Hillary.

When bush's and cheney's DUIs were discovered, the media laughed it off and said shit.

Etc....We are against the nazi media a branch of the bush empire.

[bushwakker]

18. Pandora's Box

leads to a discussion about his drug use. puts them on the defensive. weakens his image as a straight shooter. weakens his nat'l sec credentials.

[amber dog democrat]

19. But he's been cocaine free

for years now. I say nail him.

[bushwakker]

20. they can't defend the indefensible

we have the truth on our side and that makes attcking him easier.

[oasis]

22. A credible attack on Bush's character will slowly erode his support . Once

Bush leaning voters get another chance to evaluate the not-so-heroic hero, they will: (1)switch to Kerry (2)Stay w/Bush (3)not vote at all.

Two out of three ain't bad.

[kath]

24. The press should also be asking questions about his stint of community

service with Project PULL in Houston. Helen Thomas pointedly asked about it in a press gaggle or briefing back in late winter/early spring, and Scottie was spinning, dodging and weaving so hard that it made you dizzy just to read the transcript!

[Toots]

25. Well one record wasn't scrubbed...Bush* disobeyed an order

to take a required Flight Physical. Disobeying orders is quite an offense especially for someone who demands obedience. This needs to be brought up more because there is no good answer as to why Bush* disobeyed an order. Why did he throw away all the money spent by the State of Texas on his training and should he offer to repay the state?

[Democrat 4 Ever]

28. Bush's military records are in the same file

as the one that contains his driving record from Texas - both have conveniently been "misplaced." Oh why, why, can't Bush hire good clerical help?