The most important thing I will say before Nov 2.

[abrock]

I hope someone here connected to the Kerry campaign reads this or a similarly themed message, because this is absolutely the key to winning back the power from those who stole it in 2000. I can't stress how important this is.

-------------

I spent the labor day weekend speaking to a number of my Republican relatives seriously about the coming election. All of them support Bush, however most of them support him for one reason, and one reason alone. It is not his record, and indeed, none of them, when asked, "What positive things has Bush done since he became president?" none of them had an answer. It is not the fact that he's a lying warmonger who associates with more conflicting big business interests than any other president in history. Most of the people I spoke with already had heard about the Halliburton/Cheney scandal-in-progress, but none of them, not a single solitary one, cares enough to let it affect their decision. They do not care that he's lied about taking us to war in Iraq, that there were no weapons of mass destruction, that we haven't found Osama, or that 9/11 happened because he ignored all the warnings. Most of them don't know about that last part, but they all rationalized it away anyway.

The reason that they support Bush, and I want to make this absolutely clear, because hearing it was like a bolt of insight straight from heaven, is that they perceive Bush to be a leader who will act independent of 'popular opinion', including the opinions of those at home and abroad, to protect us from terrorists, and that Kerry will not act decisively in the defense of the country. He'll talk and bargain, but he won't do what is necessary to prevent terrorism.

If the Kerry campaign wants to swing a ton of scared Republican voters like my relatives who aren't really die-hard for Bush, but who don't see a viable alternative, then they simply must make their case for their ability to defend America while simultaneously attacking Bush's ability to defend America.

There is no other choice people. The gloves must come off, they must come off NOW, and we must get our national defense and terrorism policy talking points on the news media all day, every day. We must hammer at Bush's credibility as a leader, we must destroy any notions that 9/11 was not preventable, that it was his failure that caused it to happen in the first place, and that he is one of the biggest reasons we are hated around the glode.

Healthcare, education, jobs, the economy, all these things are important, but people are not swung by these things in this election. The war on terror is the KEY, and if the Kerry team doesn't recognize this quickly, we are doomed to 4 (or more...) years of the worst president in the history of the United States of America.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

1. BINGO!

You've caught the ghost and painted it green. Bush is hollow, empty rhetoric, lies, and misdeeds. But the neocons will follow him to hell because he's supposedly a "standup kinda guy".

I've heard the same from my neocon friends and relatives in South Carolina and Georgia.

If Kerry wants to seal the deal he needs to distance himself from the idea that he's going to be the poodle of the UN and the rest of the world. Call it "kickass diplomacy" or whatever you like. Kerry needs some.

[democratreformed]

2. Bush will protect us from terrorism.

While GWBush dedicates all our resources to fighting terraism (in the form of attacking Iraq, no less), many of those countries that he named "The Axis of Evil" are gearing up to challenge our "badness". They are peeking their little heads out and saying "Hey, over here."
"No, over here." What does GWBush do? Ignore them for the most part. Oh, every once in a while he spouts some of his bad-ass rhetoric, but, for the most part, he ignores them. After all, the majority of our resources are committed to obliterating that "real" haven of terrorism - Iraq. If people can't understand that we can't bully our way into being the world's "keeper", I don't know what we're going to do.

It is FALSE that George Bush is doing a good job of fighting terrorism. How can we make people understand that?

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

3. "How can we make people understand that?"

False paradigm. Not likely you could succeed. Dubya has taken us to war, therefore by definition in the neocon mind, he's a great leader.

Gotta make them see that Kerry can be a great leader too, and emphasize that the chimp killed thousands and spent billions and found nada.

[democratreformed]

4. Point take, but I don't have to like it do I?

"Our warrior will be better than your warrior". Uck!

I decided that I would say that Kerry is a peace president not a war president. He will bring peace to the current situation. He will fight terrorism without resorting to war.

But, I suppose that's not what people want to hear. How sad.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

5. We'd all like to be idealistic in the face of adversity...

but thus has seldom been the way to victory and is not now.

Maybe I'm wrong and drawing lines in the sand between the two is the way to go. But a lot of people are scared that Kerry is weak, wishy-washy, a flip-flop, and doesn't have the stomache to lead.

That's my grandfathers position. My grondfather was in the army in Europe during WWII and, believe me, he has some stories to tell about it. He's seen blood and guts and the horrors of war firsthand. And he vehemently supports Bush and Republicans, damn the torpedos.

There's no good way to explain the logic. I think it may be genetic to some degree, between the warrior class and a nester class. But a tiger don't change its stripes and a warrior don't give up his sword.

Kerry needs votes and he needs to take them from the Repugs. Logic can go out the window.

[Awsi Dooger]

6. My brother-in-law is voting for Kerry but calls him weak

He matter-of-factly announced that the other day, citing flip-flops and an obsession with the opinions of other countries. IMO it cannot be understated how prevalent that opinion has become, and Kerry needs to forcefully rehabilitate his image before, and instead of, going negative on Bush.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

8. If I were Kerry, I'd certainly give that a shot.

But I wouldn't be above going negative on Bush a few weeks out if things looked sour.

[belle]

50. BUSH is weak. Kerry is strong. why on earth can't people see that???

and how can we make them if they haven't already?

[democratreformed]

13. How did we get into this positon of leadership being synonomous

with war? I guess not war, exactly, but the "kick ass" menatality is what I call it.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

18. What better way to demonstrate one's ability to lead...

than to kick someone's ass? Preferably a badguy, but an ass nonetheless.

It's an unfortunate consequence of evolution: The strong survive, and those that demonstrate strength are the natural, and most often chosen, leaders.

[democratreformed]

21. Although I understand what you are talking about, I believe there are

many different kinds of strength. It takes much more strength to keep the peace than to "kick ass". I believe that because I saw my family fall apart after the quiet strength of my mother was lost when a heart attack took here. We were left with my father - the one who built a booming business and was always the accepted "leader". In the past few years, we have been brought to face the reality of his weakness. All the "toughness" was a joke, in reality. The real toughness was in my mother who quietly went about her business keeping the peace behind the scenes.

I believe the only reason that this is an issue is because we currently have the "bad asses" in power and that's who we have to compete with. If it weren't for the way they have successfully manipulated the perception of "leadership", this would not be an issue.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

25. You're a deep thinker. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Just keep in mind that not everyone can see things as clearly as you. The rest of us are skewed by our own demons and biases.

Most people don't give a hoot what a politician in DC has to say anyhoo. They just want to have their bills paid and their family taken care of. And if the guy in the House says he's gonna kick someone's ass, then "hoo-ha, we're number one!"

Personally, I'd like to see Kerry get nasty with this. I mean, he's got the moral high ground, why not use it? Kerry fought in Nam, dubya went to the Champagne guard and failed to show up for muster.

If Kerry can't win this election, something is really wrong with this country.

And I wish all the best for your family.

[democratreformed]

27. Thanks for your well wishes.

I've been wrestling with this "hoo-ha, we're number one!" issue ever since this war started. It is disappointing that so many could be so simplistic, elitist, and arrogant. But, like you said, that's reality.

And, reality is what we have to work with. I wouldn't be disappointed if Kerry got nasty with this either. I wouldn't be disappointed if he suddenly started touting how "bad" he is. I want him to do whatever is necessary for him to win. Sadly, I don't care what that is - just as long as he wins.

The main reason I don't care is because I have come to trust Kerry over the past several months. I believe that he is a good person and will be an excellent strong leader. If he starts acting all macho and arrogant, I will know that he is only doing what he has to do.
At least, I hope I'm right about that. In my heart, I feel like I am.

I suppose as time goes on (rather quickly as campaigns go), if Kerry does start acting that way, I will adapt to repeating the lines to those I have occasion to talk with.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

30. Well, I wish I were as optimistic as you.

Politics to me has become an empty shell game. I can't say with any certainty that Kerry will be better than da Shrub. All I can say is that I can't see him being any worse.

I don't like the way I see things going in America. I don't like the two party system where we take flip sides of the same coin and say, "here's your choices, folks!" and I sure as hell don't like seeing my fellow service members being unlawfully used for the aggrandizement of some neocon warrior type.

But I'm stuck with what I've got. I'll vote Kerry in, and if he screws up, I'll be on Free Republic in four years shilling for whomever.

I refuse partisan politics these days. I've surmised Kerry is the lesser of two evils right now, and that's because that's what I've been fed.

But damn, this is my country. I served it and I fought for it. And since I can't be king, I'm stuck with going to the polls to vote.

Bummer.

[democratreformed]

31. If he screws up, I'll be over there with ya.

Yes, this system sucks for the most part. Or, at least, to me, it has. A co-worker was just remarking on this very topic this morning. He was saying how sad it was that all the good people usually drop out b/c they get tired of the crap involved in running.

For now, I am choosing to be optimistic. I have really liked what I have seen since I quit focusing on Wes Clark and started watching Kerry b/c he was the nominee. I know I should have been paying attention to all of them from the beginning but Wes was my man.

I have decided that I will become an activist if all this don't work out right. I am sick of you and your fellow servicemen being used for the wrong reasons too. I am sick of the attitudes that say, although our country is far superior to every other one on earth, we just can't manage to make sure that each of our citizens have equal and fair opportunity. I am deeply saddened at the loss of the American dream for so many. I am angry that the things our servicemen have fought for throughout history being cast aside.

I am sorry for you, as a serviceman, that you have to put up with the things you do. I have been so thankful this past couple of years that I don't have a son or daughter in the military (is that bad of me?). I think I would have to live on valium to make it through my every day life if one of my children were over there. Then again, I might be able to reach deep down inside and find some strength and find a meaningful way to go on.

By the way, let me finish with a thank you to you for serving our country so valiantly.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

32. Well, what can we do.

Vote our conscience.

My son won't be serving.

Peace to you.

[democratreformed]

34. And to you.

Thanks for a most stimulating conversation. And thanks again for your service. Thank you doesn't seem like enough. I promise that I WILL work for change. Actually, I already am - at every opportunity I get.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

7. Your Republican relatives cannot be swayed by reality,

proven by the fact that:

they perceive Bush to be a leader who will act independent of 'popular opinion'


There is no way we are going to convert people who are that divorced from reality.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

11. Defeatism.

It's exactly what the neocons are counting on. Reality is nebulous. Yours is not the same as his, mine, or theirs. What counts is psychology. How to win friends and influence people.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Absolutely not. I'm convinced there are more people who can see reality.

So convinced, in fact, that I don't think we should waste our time with those who can't.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

22. Could be you're right.

But I don't give up on anybody.

And it ain't over 'til its over.

And that ain't when the Supreme Court says so, either.

[BillZBubb]

9. I strongly DISAGREE with your conclusion.

You admit you were talking to Republicans. We don't need Republican votes, we need Democrats and Independents. The few sane Republicans left will come our way. Fanatics like your relatives--and they are fanatics because facts don't mean squat to them--are not going to vote for Kerry. No matter what he does, they aren't.

The so-called war on terror is NOT the main issue to the vast majority of voters.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

15. I'm living proof you are wrong.

Ex-Republican voting for Kerry here. Two for one. For every Republican vote Kerry steals the margin widens.

[BillZBubb]

20. Notice I made an exception for sane Republicans.

You obviously have listened to the facts and made up your mind. Those other people ignored every fact put to them.

[RUSTY SHACKLEFORD]

23. You're right.

Some lemmings will march off the cliff no matter what we say or do. I just don't think we should stop screaming until the "splat".

[A_Possum]

10. I don't think it's worth it to mess with delusional people

I have no doubt that you're right about your relatives. And they are simply wrong about reality.

Forget Republicans, forget the swing vote. This election will be turnout.

If your relatives whine about Kerry being weak, just shrug and say, "You're wrong about that one, baby," or something equally dismissive. At worst they won't listen and at best they'll pick up on your certainty, which is what they are desperate for.

Nothing Kerry does can change their minds, just like nothing Bush does changes 'em.

It's good that Kerry's tied in the polls, cause that way we don't get complacent.

[abrock]

12. I disagree, and here is why.

If we attack and discredit the only thing Bush has going for him, what is left for him to run on? He'll be ruined.

[A_Possum]

14. Of course

We're doing that.

I don't see what you are saying should be done differently.

[abrock]

16. We're not doing it loudly or clearly enough.

[A_Possum]

17. "The WRONG war at the WRONG time in the WRONG place

What's so unclear about that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x756424

[democratreformed]

28. I do like that idea..... attack and discredit

And we should have plenty of ammo.

[HFishbine]

24. Maybe what you were hearing

is that your relatives know that their views are in the minority and they like that Bush will not be swayed by majority opinion.

[Minimus]

26. I find it riduculous that anyone would

think that a president, dem/repub/ind, would not do what is necessary to defend America. There of course would be differences in the way this defense is handled, and I definately feel John Kerry would handle it in a better way. Repubs can joke all they want about "sensitive" war but that is exactly what is needed. And I use "sensitive" with all the nuances JK implied.

We've all heard the expression "work smarter, not harder".

While I watched the RNC and the bush video about 9/11 defining his presidency, I just had to laugh. Suffice it to say, whoever was the prez when that tragedy occurred would have done the same. He/she/it would have gone to NYC, comforted the people, stood on the rubble, thrown the first pitch, etc. Bush's defining moment was him sitting in the classroom reading about a goat.

[troubleinwinter]

29. Heh?? Whuh?

"I find it ridiculous that anyone would think that a president ... would not do what is necessary to defend America."

??? Excuse me, have you read about the Aug. 6 PDB??? To say the least.

[Minimus]

41. yes I am quite familiar with the pbd

I have read all the books by Richard Clarke, Bob Woodward, etc.

I was speaking in the broader since (I see you did not pick up on my nuances) that half the country acts as if JK would just "allow" the country to be attacked.

[IowaGuy]

38. A lot of "defining moments".........

Like you, I was stunned at the look of total paralysis that was in *'s eyes in that class room on 9/11....what mystifies me even more is that it was Cheney that was issuing commands to the Air Force pilots that had been scrambled...correct me if I'm wrong, but in the chain of command, is there not, only one civilian commander of the Armed Forces? The only way Cheney could legitimately be doing this is if * was "incapable of fulfilling the duties of his office"...where was he? Why did he abandon his post? Why isn't this being questioned more?...he wants to be judged on his response to 9/11...so be it.

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Bush was NEVER capable of fulfilling the duties of his (unelected) office.

Junior exists in the White House for 2 reasons...

1) Fundraising abilities made possible by his daddy's name.
2) An empty suit and empty head to be a frontman puppet for the PNAC agenda.

That's all he has been and all he would continue to be in a second term. It's no coincidence that all the assholes who signed that PNAC manifesto ended up in this Fraudministration, or in the media promoting this Fraudministration.

Junior was sent to Florida the evening of 9/10 and shuffled around the country on 9/11 to keep his stupid ass out of the way while Uncle Dick and the PNAC boys rolled the cameras on that "new PERLE Harbor" they wanted so badly.

[Democat]

33. The 2002 election was a failure and we tried "economy" instead of security

People want to know they are going to be kept alive more than they care about their jobs right now.

Don't listen to the focus groups, look at history. Security will be the number on issue this campaign.

[merh]

35. Folks like the family members you mention forget that action is not a

sign of strength, it is often a knee jerk reaction to fear.

Ask them where they think they would be today if John Fitzgerald Kennedy had employed the same type of "strength" that the weed has employed during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

John Kennedy's strength was his restraint - he could have easily adopted the f**ed up "pre-emptive" doctrine of the shrub's, but had he done that, most of us would not be here today as a nuclear war would have probably destroyed our world.

I believe even Ike would be appalled by the way the shrub has conducted the foreign affairs of this nation. He hated war too, having sent thousands to their death and he warned against the influence of the military machine. What he warned us against is happening today. I would suggest to Grandpa that he read (or re-read) Ike's 1961 farewell address:

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence-economic, political, even spiritual-is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

http://www.eisenhower.utexas.edu/farewell.htm

[Kimber Scott]

36. Not everybody in this country is "terrorized" by the thought of living

without Bush. In fact, I think most people would do just fine without him. These people (Bush supporters)have fallen into the trap. Would it be wise for us to set the same trap? I don't know. I don't think so. Although, the trap has worked quite well throughout the ages. Religion could be seen as a way to control the masses through fear and it's been very effective. Maybe, this is why the religious "right" is so happy to hang on to the Bush myth. They're used to it. They have let fear overcome common sense and scientific fact since the dawn of time. Not, to bash anybody's religion. I realize the human need for religion and spirituality. I'm a very spiritual person myself, sometimes. Despite reason and science. But, I think the point I'm trying to make is Bush is you can't fight faith (especially faith based on fear), whether it be in God, Jesus, Mohamed, or Bush. I think we need to play a different game.

If I turn on the t.v. and hear someone scaring me to death all the time, and vowing he's the only one who can save me, then turn the channel and find someone telling me things are rough, but the sky's not falling, and we'll figure out a way to fix this problem together. I'm going to stay with the guy on the second channel. That's me, though. Some people like to leave all the decisions and thought processes up to somebody else. I think our best strategy is to find people who think like we do and get them to the polls. I don't think it's a good strategy to pretend we are like "them."

[Jade Fox]

37. In other words your relatives support Bush because....

he is a scattershot reactionary who responds to the threats by
simply unloading in all directions, damn the consequences?

Ask them to think about whether they really want that kind of loose
cannon running our country in a world where people DO have WMDs.

Ask them if they will volunteer themselves or their children as cannon
fodder?

[Catfight]

39. I asked my mom the same thing, what exactly appeals to you about

Bush, and she went on to talk about how he was a leader on 9/11. When I explained to her that Bush was inactive and actually was warned about 9/11 she didn't know that information. She also didn't know that while he was reading it was the SECOND plane that hit the tower. She was under the impression he was there leading instead of the truth, taking photo's, relaxed, unconcerned, disengaged, and flying around hiding.

Moveon really needs to put the time line out, put the picture of Bush doing nothing and put an end to the disillusion. Time to crash the mirror folks and take off the blinders.

Also, we need 9/11 families who are pissed and know the truth, America needs to hear their stories!

[mmonk]

40. but, but, but,

I thought it was only about jobs and the two Americas. We must not make waves about the war on terra. We must agree with the republicans cause we don't want to look like wimps.

OK, sarcasm off. You're exactly right. Go directly at them on this farce about bush, the war on terror, and keeping us safe. Prove it bogus and these people are gone. It's all they have.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

42. I've heard the exact same thing from

republican friends and acquantainces.

In the EXACT same words.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

43. Everyone who is going to vote for bush

and thinks he makes America and the world safer and would continue to needs to read this BADLY:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=557746

[goodwalt]

45. The Best Weapon We have

Iv'e tried to sell this idea in response to other posts-let me try this one more time. Why isn't anyone running commercials featuring W reading "My Pet Goat" after learning about the second attack? Abrock is absolutely right about much of W's supporters- they don't like the deficits, they don't like the economy, the war in Iraq, etc...But they have bought into the incessant stream of tough-guy, macho, bull-shit rhetoric coming out of W's mouth- to the point that believe him to be a "Strong and Decisive" leader.
THE BEST COUNTER ARGUMENT we have is that film footage of Shrub looking dazed and confused in that classroom for seven minutes. From what I've heard in the press and from the talking heads, most Republicans refuse to see Farenheit 911 on principle- The repug slime machine has done a masterful job of discrediting Michael Moore. Still, they cannot argue with actual footage of our idiot in chief at the moment of truth.
Picture this- a 60 second commercial that starts with Andrew Card leaning in to whisper to W. The voice over says something like "At 9:03 EST, George Bush was informed that the American people are under attack. Then you super-impose a clock face, and show a series of 5 second shots of W looking dazed, reading about goats, looking dazed again- all the while advancing the clock hands to correspond to the appropriate clip. Finish up with with bold type across the screen "STRONG DECISIVE LEADERSHIP?".
I think such a commercial would be demoralizing to Repugs that support W because of his "Decisiveness and Strength".

[abrock]

46. YES.

This would be masterful. It needs to be done, and soon. I hope someone important is reading this...

[goodwalt]

47. Thanks- got another one

Thanks for the positive feedback. I intend to e-mail the idea to Moveon.org and M.Moores's site, but other than that, I don't know how to draw attention to it. I have another idea using footage of Bush from Fahrenheit 911 that might be good as well. I swear I have seen a clip of Bush spouting words to the effect of "sending troops to war is the most serious, gut wrenching decision a president is called upon to make". I would love to see an ad featuring that clip- then a black screen with the words "DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT MR. PRESIDENT?"- then show the F911 clip with Shrub making funny faces and crossing his eyes immediately before his national television address informing the country that we are invading Iraq.
If you have any suggestions as to how to get these ideas to a larger audience, I'd love to hear them.

[abrock]

48. Yes, that is indeed the question.

The evidence to condemn this village idiot is out there, we just have to get it into the mainstream so people realize what a blockhead he is. His little quote today about OBGYNs was classic, you can't make that kind of thing up.

Its a gift from heaven, and we need to use it.

[cheshire]

49. The pubs for shrub are scared they will die and are fooled that * is

the only hope they have. We need to all send this thought to the Kerry site.