SLUDGE: '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake

[Z-E-R-0]

32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by CBSNEWS 60 MINS on Bush's guard service may have been forged using a current word processing program // typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program, Internet reports claim...

Developing...

[Ducks In A Row]

1. then why did the wh release the same docs?

drudge is useless.

[StClone]

5. Drudge! Why is he even posted about here?

Drudge has been discredited.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

48. So why isn't Gephardt the Veep nominee?

Drudge fucks up more than he ever gets it right. The ration is probably 10:1 lies to something accurate.

[DarthDem]

2. Sigh . . . already debunked

See TPM today, e.g. . . . .

[berner59]

3. then how did the WH produce them....

this morning?? Try again Drudge...

[Truth is True]

35. From following the links off drudge

apparently those documents the WH released were faxed to them by CBS on Tues night.

[Truth is True]

38. Link

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php

See "Update 5"

[mac56]

4. Drudge has no shame.

Absolutely none.

(fixed sub line by request)

[Gothmog]

6. Idiot Freepers have been making this claim all day

This claim is wrong and stupid but then again so are the Freepers. IBM typewriters of that day also generated the same font and typing. Stupid Drudge and stupid freepers.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

29. Sometimes even on this forum! n/t

[gauguin57]

7. "Internet reports claim"

Oh. My. God.

What a bunch of horse manure.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

12. LOL

they're desperate

[NewJeffCT]

49. other internet reports claim...

Other internet reports claim Bush made 9/11 happen. Others claim he let it happen.

Some claim that Bush originally picked Cheney to be his VP because Cheney found pictures of Bush getting a little too randy with a sheep...

[Renew Deal]

8. Does that mean that the WH released forgeries?

[John BigBootay]

26. Can you tell me about the WH release?

I thought these memos were sent to 60 minutes from an unnamed source who got them from Killian's file? How does this involve the WH?

[Renew Deal]

30. I thought the WH released them last night.

They found them and released them. Either that or they found out that they were found and released them.

[John BigBootay]

58. CBS faxed them to the WH / WH "released" the faxes.

This is my current understanding.

[democrat_patriot]

9. WH forged documents!!

That's a better headline.

[Fed Up]

10. Matt Drudge "might be" the Zodiac killer.

Can anyone prove he's not? Then therefore it stands to reason he might be.

[Seabiscuit]

15. Well, by Buscho's logic, he *must* be the Zodiac killer

Remember by their logic, if Saddam couldn't prove he didn't have WMD, that proved he did have them, and was all the justification Buscho said it needed to invade.

[npincus]

11. nice try- it's all speculative according to the article

it could be from a high-end typewriter or early word-processor, or a rolling-ball typewriter...

what a load of horse shit.

Didn't we expect this?

[Walt Starr]

13. Why does this post show 33 replies

but only 13 are actually in here?

Maybe because Drudge is an alien invader bent on global domination.

[htuttle]

17. A bunch of replies disppeared

I'd replied earlier farther down in thread, but half of the thread disappeared.

:shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

18. the repuke posted it in GD too

[bigtree]

14. ZERO

to see here.

[9119495]

16. I thought we weren't supposed to post Drudge stuff here.

[SeekingTruth]

19. Go to www.talkingpointsmemo.com

Josh Marshall addresses this issue and has some answers....

Remember, idiot Matt Drudge just posted a picture with Kerry holding a gift of a normal semi-auto shotgun and said Kerry wanted to ban it because of its pistol grip - it didn't have one, it was the normal stock to a long gun...

Drudge is an idiot...

[monobrau]

21. Nobody's explained the superscript yer

Can someone confirm that it was possible to do this when this memo was typed? I don't think it was, and I don't think an officer typing a memo would switch out his element to emulate superscript.
This changes nothing about Bush being suspended, but don't accept evidence without authentication.

[Walt Starr]

22. Simply look at IBM's site

These things were first made in 1933:

http://domino.research.ibm.com/tchjr/journalindex.nsf/4ac37cf0bdc4dd6a85256547004d47e1/e5aa101ad59cf7c985256bfa0067f4eb?OpenDocument

[Walt Starr]

23. And these babies from '61 were on every military clerical worker's desk

http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1961.html

[libertad]

45. I used one when I was in the Navy. The type looks authentic to me.

[yellowcanine]

42. Drudge fell for a Freeper delusion. Why am I not surprised?

[alarcojon]

47. Not that it matters

but are you sure it isn't the other way around? Drudge puts out the talking points, which the freepers happily regurgitate through the next news cycle?

[Walt Starr]

50. The Freepers started their delusions about forgeries last night

as soon as the documents hit the web.

[alarcojon]

54. Thanks for the timeline

[John BigBootay]

24. Explain why the original is identical to the new?

Even if Selectrics used proportional fonts, the text wouldn't an exact match. The old memo and the new mock up appear identical, almost a carbon copy.

The Drudge story had a link to an article that featured a typographical expert saying that the document "raised eyebrows."

Mine are raised.

[Walt Starr]

28. What new mock up?

Surely you jest? "New mock ups" intent upon proving the original is a forgery are sim ply forgeries of the original.

The technology was common at the time and the typwriters that functioned that way were the standard in all military operations.

[John BigBootay]

32. Not jesting-

The point of the new document is to show how easy it is to make a document that looks essentially identical to the original.

Aparently, if you open a new doc in MS-Word and use all standard formatting and Times New Roman font (I believe), type in the text, you will get an almost exact copy of the original.

I don't find that to be conclsive of anything-- but it certainly is curious.

[Walt Starr]

34. Maybe it's because IBM was the state of the art in typewriters

for about FOREVER and Word Processing mocked IBM typesets?

Oh, wow, most of these "it's a fake" morons on the right wing blogs never THOUGHT to look at the history of word processing to realize that Word Processors were originally designed to function as an IBM typewriter, and even USED IBM typewriters as the original "printer".

:eyes:

Microsoft Word is not a new innovation. It copied from the Word Processors that went before it and eventually was sold to Microsoft so they could add a Word Processor to their technology belt. Ergo, it *FUCNTIONED* as an IBM Typewriter.

[John BigBootay]

46. I hope you're right, but I have to say

I don't think you are.

I did the MS-Word test myself and it looks SO DAMN close that my BS detector is going crazy.

I'll accept what you say about the technology of the IBM Selectric, but it should not match that closely. You can superimpose one over the other and get a very, very close match.

The pitch, the kerning, the leading-- all of it matches to the pica.

I hope you're right but I'm not holding my breath. Sorry.

[Walt Starr]

52. OF COURSE IT LOOKS THE SAME!!!!!!

Word Processing started on IBM computers and all were designed specifically to function as if they were IBM typewriters.

So OF COURSE it would "appear" the same. That's how Word Processors were *DESIGNED* to function!

[LuminousX]

25. the superscript th was just a keypress on the selectric executive

[Walt Starr]

27. Yep, that tech has been around a LONG time

Freeper poseurs around DU in a panic notwithstanding!

:evilgrin:

[monobrau]

33. Thanks, my memories are fuzzy

I remember the fraction keys when I took typing back in the mid-70's, but not the superscript. Needless to say, my mind was on other things in those days, and I got a C in typing.

Unlike the typical freeper, I insist on being informed before I make judgements.

[Snellius]

36. If it's a fake. It's a fake somebody knew would be found a fake

It would have been a simple matter to either get a real typewriter or use a fixed space font like Courier to emulate one. But I have to say it sure looks like it was done on a computer, and I don't think the Texas National Guard would be using Apples in 1972.

Thus it's probably either authentic, since anyone trying to fake it wouldn't be so dumb, or it's a fake purposefully made to look like a fake.

[Walt Starr]

37. No, the military used IBM Selectric typewriters

and word processors from day ONE EMULATED IBM TYPEWRITERS!

[Snellius]

40. Those were the kind with those revolving balls?

It would be easy enough to find one to match.

[TeeYiYi]

57. IBM had a conract with our government . . .

... to supply equipment and maintenance in Vietnam from 1965 to 1973. They had 130 employees and their families who were trapped during the fall of Saigon in April 1975.

http://www.historynet.com/vn/blwhiteshirtsandties/

TYY

[Catfight]

31. NYP, "Bush Might Be a Fake," Cheney to answer allegations in 15minutes

on FOX.

[scared]

44. Just listened to Wayne Slater.........

A longtime Texas reporter. He was on Fresh Air discussing Bush, Rove, etc. This has all the earmarks of a Rove disinformation campaign. Have Drudge report that they may be fake to put doubts in peoples minds. That's all this is, the problem is, many people will believe it; thus, his job is done.

Kind of like their new attack on Kerry and his campaign being behind the new attacks concerning Bush's guard service. Bush say they are bringing this up because he is behind in the polls. They work it so well. They are actually the ones doing the sliming with SBV, but they turn it around to reflect on their opponent. They do the dirty work, then claim the other side is really the dirty party.

[LTR]

39. Here's the TalkingPointsMemo debunking of it

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_09_05.php#003456

On the face of it, that sounds logical to me. But the editor of the site has now posted the comments of at least one reader who says such machines were actually widely available at the time.

It seems worth noting that the White House accepted the documents as genuine and even began releasing them to other journalists yesterday evening -- though it's not clear to me whether they were releasing their own copies or simply passing on what CBS had given them.

The deeper point is that CBS reported that they had handwriting experts scrutinize these documents to ascertain their authenticity. It seems hard to imagine they'd go to such lengths to have experts analyze them and not check out something so obvious as seeing if they'd been written by a typewriter that was in existence at time. (Hard to imagine or, if true, unimaginably stupid.)

One way or another, I doubt we'll have to speculate about this for very long. This question about what sort of typesets were available in 1973 should be easy enough to settle.

[Walt Starr]

41. Man, people just don't have a clue here!

The military contracted with IBM for DECADES for ALL TYPEWRITERS.

Word Processing began on IBM machines and were designed to EMULATE IBM TYPEWRITERS!

Ergo, if you try to produce a copy of a military document typed on a Selectric typewriter in 1973 using MS Word today, IT WOULD LOOK IDENTICAL!

[John BigBootay]

60. That's not a very convincing debunking--

What I think would go a long way toward settling this issue would be if the unnamed source to CBS would release additional memos from Killian that others can verify as legit, that feature the same typography.

That's essentiall what JM is saying in "This question about what sort of typesets were available in 1973 should be easy enough to settle."

[bobbyboucher]

43. Hey the ZERO is back, and posting Sludge lies, what a surprise.

Your boy bush is a coward. He ran like a scared rabbit from Viet Nam just like he ran like a scared rabbit on 9/11. When you finally pry your head and shoulders out of your arse, then maybe the light of day will bring with it some sense.

[SidDithers]

59. hehehe....

You noticed that too, eh? :)

Sid

[Liberal Veteran]

51. Proper headline then: White House Releases Forged Documents!

Cool! Let's start impeachment proceedings!

[annxburns]

53. Complete debunking on Daily Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/9/153213/0277

sorry freepers.

[Walt Starr]

55. The items were typed on an IBM Executive Typewriter with a Times Roman

font ball.

I guarantee you, MS Word emulates that typewriter to a tee because all word processing is based upon emulating the fonts and functionality of the IBM typewriters.

[SidDithers]

61. BTW, gratz on 15k posts, Walt nt.

Sid

[RichardRay]

56. Yep, and it could have been typed on a piece of swiss cheese

but it wasn't.

Folks who are baying at this one have a) never worked in a military office of the time, b) never used an IBM Selectric of the time, c) not bothered to think about just where they're saying 'forgeries' came from.

Maybe it was burned into a piece of old melba toast using a terawatt laser from the surface of the moon, but that didn't happen either.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[Moderator]

62. Locking.....

The author is no longer with us.



DU Moderator