Please settle this one issue (re: forgery flap)

[troublemaker]

Okay, leaving the source aside... this Bouffard fellow's observation about the "4"s is valid as far as I've been able to tell. Times New Roman is a serif face but it does have a sans-serif numeral "4," and typewriters genrally left the 4s open at the top. (I'm guessing here, but perhaps because a closed 4 top cut into the paper) The new memos do have computer style 4s. So my question is are there any closed top sans-serif 4s in any of the unquestioned typed documents? (not machine printed docs like the pay summaries) If not, I'm leaning forgery.

According to the weblog INDC Journal, Dr. Philip Bouffard, touted as one of the top two experts in forensic document examination of typefaces in the country, said he cannot make a 100-percent-positive evaluation because the documents appear to have been copied several times.

(But)...he also pointed out the number 4 does not have a "foot" and has a "closed top," which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to modern computer word processing programs.

Bouffard told INDC Journal that after further analysis, he's fairly certain the Aug. 18, 1973, document is a fake. (My Note: it's funny that the cited doc has no fours in it. It doesn't undo the general observation about the fours, but I wanted to note it.)

He noted, examining his old papers, the inconsistency of the "4" coming up several previous times with forgeries that attempt to duplicate old proportional spaced documents with a computer word processor.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40376

[Tweed]

1. The White House and forgery go hand and hand

Forging documents led to Bush's 16 word lie about yellow cake. I'm not surprised that such speculation has come up again. Let font professionals look at the documents and come back to us in a week. For now, let's talk about how Bush won't have a net gain in jobs at the current rate until 2011. We are turning the corner in a tricycle. John Kerry will turn the corner in a 2004 Harley Davidson motorcycle.

[usregimechange]

2. I don't know but the more we question the longer the media will

talk about it. Good for us.

[ochazuke]

3. Rubbish

For one thing, Times New Roman appears to date back to the 1930s.

Another thing, worldnetdaily is another Right Wing source. So far, I have not seen any real experts question these documents; it all comes from RW blogs.

There must be a huge number of people qualified to evaluate these documents. Certaily they will step forward and put all this typeface nonsense to rest.

[shraby]

5. How can he discount it as a forgery

depending on the 4s if there are no 4s to see????????????????????

edited for WHOOPS.

[FreeState]

6. there are 4s

look at the address on the top of the memo's... has a 4...

[FreeState]

4. Here is my answer

Times Roman number 4
EDIT TO ADD:

4's were not gernerally open on the top. Please see these examples of vintage typwriter fonts: http://www.vintagetype.com/vintagetypewriter/vtspecialfeatures.html

Note that TIMES NEW ROMAN is the same font as TIMES ROMAN. It is not a new font, it is not exclusive to computer!

"During WWII, the American Linotype company, in a generous spirit of Allied camaraderie, applied for registration of the trademark name "Times Roman" as its own, not Monotype's or The Times', and received the registration in 1945.

In the 1980's, all this was revisited when some entrepreneurs, desirous of gaining the rights to use the name, applied to Rupert Murdoch, who owned The Times; separately, a legal action was also initiated to clarify the right of Monotype to use the name in the U.S., despite Linotype's registration.

The outcome of all of the legal maneuverings is that Linotype and its licensees like Adobe and Apple continue to use the name "Times Roman", while Monotype and its licensees like Microsoft use the name "Times New Roman". http://www.truetype.demon.co.uk/articles/times.htm

Sorry as a graphic designer Im not buying that these are fakes. Here is why.

1) People are claiming that it is Times New Roman and that is a new Microsoft font. NOT so. TNR is from the 1930's. It was standard type face in the 50's and on (typography 101- you can find this on line). In the 80's Times Roman was renamed to Times New Roman by Microsoft to avoid paying royalties but it is the exact same font. In addition the font used in these memos is NOT Times New Roman (see image I created below.) Please note the feet and arms on the acenders and decenders on the fonts. They are not the same. They would not become larger after being copied, but smaller. More like arial.

2) The typewritters used in the early 1970's were electronic and used font kerning. They were not uncommon. Electronic typewriters as well as modern word prossesors use by default the same leading and kerning that the printing press used for type faces.

3) They were typed on a typewritter. In the example below you will notice that the type is all aligned to the left. However when I tried to duplicate the angle of the font the left side alignment does not move. The only answer for this is that the page was slightly turned (or crumpled) in a typwriter at its time of creation.

Here is the image. I created it using Times New Roman (blue original is in black)- the font Drudge says they are saying it is.

As for my background in this I had 3 college classes in typography (history and creation).

[Protected]

7. Did you actually print it out and scan it back in again?

It looks like you didn't given the "th" superscript. It matches up really well when you print it out.

[FreeState]

10. Not Times New Roman (image compairing them)

I did not print it out and scan it again... however the th looks the same as it does in this image when I do print it out.

I fortgot to add that the most common fonts in use in the 50s - 70's were Times Roman (or a slight variation of it... like this one) and helvetica.

[shraby]

8. You can also see its a typewriter

because of the light and dark parts of the letters, showing the difference in pressure of the fingers hitting the keys and the more worn spots on the ribbon.

[ContinentalOp]

12. Thank you for the informed analysis!

How serendipitous that Rupert Murdoch figures into the backstory of the Times typeface! And of course the dirty secret behind the whole discussion is that the "Times New Roman" everyone is discussing is actually M$'s stolen, pirated version of someone else's design! See, even seemingly mundane discussions of typography (some people here have groaned that we're "talking about fonts") can shine some light on the typical criminal practices of Republicans and the corporate monopolies that support them.

[Must_B_Free]

14. Look at the "e" in Memo To File

it looks higher than the other chars.

[ochazuke]

21. Difference in superscript

I don't get your point about the alignment on the left; your type looks to be slanted.

But, in your reproduction, and in my experiments on my word processor, the superscript pretty much stays within the height limits of the characters, where in the original, it is clearly above. Of course, you could get that effect if you wanted to, but if it's a careless forgery, would you think of such a thing?

This is all getting a bit silly, isn't it?

[Metrix]

9. I haven't had time to follow the threads tonight

Excuse me if this has already been discussed, but the copy looks like it could have been produced on an IBM Mag Card typewriter. I used one in a law office in San Francisco in 1977. I think that model was an IBM Mag Card II. I know these had been in use in the California AG's office prior to that time. And a Mag Card A model existed prior to that which had less storage capacity. This type of machine could easily have been used in Texas in the relevant time period.

[troublemaker]

11. Do you remember what the fours were like on it?

If there was a typewriter with a times face but a sans-serif "4" it would be good to know about.

[Metrix]

Sorry I don't

but there be tons of paper, court documents, still in existence that were typed on those machines.

[FreeState]

13. They are san-serif 4s however

so were most 4's please see:

http://www.vintagetype.com/vintagetypewriter/vtspecialfeatures.html

It contains some vintage typewriter samples.... look at the 4's.. all are closed on the top:)

Another lie debunked...

[troublemaker]

17. The two sans-serif 4s there are from san-serif faces

The two serif faces at that link have serif fours. (They are closed top, but with the little foot on them)

[sandnsea]

15. Here

Scroll down about half way and you'll find some sans-serif 4's. I have no idea what this was typed with, but it's a NASA scanned document from 1969. I bet you could find alot more that would have the exact comparison you're looking for. Just think of military situations where people would have scanned documents online and google them up.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1969/1969_BortolotThaddeus.pdf

And here, up at the top, a sans serif 4 amidst Times New Roman type.

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/archives.hom/NSAMs/nsam276.asp

[troublemaker]

22. Hi sandsea. I'm not seeing them. I should have been more rigorous in

my description. The two traits the guy cites are 1) closed top (pointed) and 2) no serif (No foot at the bottom)

Like these:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf

I can't find something of that general era that I know is typed that has that kind of numeral 4.

[sandnsea]

23. Garamond

It's Garamond. The second document is clear that it's Garamond type. Like I said, try it in word and you'll see. No serif on the 4. Garamond.

[troublemaker]

25. I'm sorry. My post could have been better written.

I might have made it sound like sans-serif is the same as the closed (pointed) top. They are independent traits. The serif on these 4 is the little foot on the bottom. They do have closed tops, though, so that's a start.

[sandnsea]

27. I know

Garamond doesn't have a serif on the 4, but is otherwise close to Times New Roman.

[sandnsea]

20. It's Garamond

A type invented by Claude Garamond in the 1500's. Try it out in Word, you'll see. It's identical.

[FreeState]

24. Its not Garamond

The decenders on the "p" and the "J" are way to low...

The decenders on the "p" and the "J" are way to low...

[sandnsea]

26. More than one Garamond

The p is different on them, maybe one is short enough. I don't see any capital J's in the memos. Maybe you could point me to that.

Oops, here's a history of Claude Garamond and some Garamond types.

http://www.identifont.com/show?2VJ

[JDPriestly]

16. Doc. with closed 4s

I am looking at a letter written on April 28, 1971. If closed tops means that the tops of the fours are triangular, the fours are closed at the top.

Bush's supporters are desperate. That they are questioning the authenticity of these documents suggests that the documents are incriminating. The Smithsonian probably has the original typewriter models.

[troublemaker]

18. Do they have a little foot on them?

[Cogito ergo doleo]

19. Times NR is an old typeface - 1932

I don't know much about typewriters, and haven't seen the other documents, however, the closed 4 is typical of the Times font family. Here is some info on the Times New Roman typeface from the Adobe font library. It would depend on the 4 onthe IBM Selectric (possibly) as to whether it was open or closed on the ball - but generally if a font name is used, the family is consistent.

http://store.adobe.com/type/browser/F/TIMM/F_TIMM-10005000.jhtml

"Typeface notes:
In 1931, The Times of London commissioned the Monotype Corporation, under the direction of Stanley Morison, to design a newspaper typeface. According to Morison: “The Times, as a newspaper in a class by itself, needed not a general trade type, however good, but a face whose strength of line, firmness of contour, and economy of space fulfilled the specific editorial needs of The Times.” Times New Roman, drawn by Victor Lardent and initially released in 1932, is the result. The Linotype version is called Times Roman. Research into legibility and readability led to a design that was unique in newspaper typography; it is based on old style (or Garalde) types, and has greater contrast and is more condensed than previous newspaper types. Times New Roman continues to be very popular, particularly for newspapers, magazines, and corporate communications such as proposals and annual reports."

[jayctravis]

28. e's and ss's

Notice that the lowercase "e" floats above the baseline sometimes in the memo. Also lowercase and capital "s" seems larger on the bottom and leans slightly right.

[Metrix]

29. Check the Merck Manual, 13th edition (1977)

I found a document on the history of the Merck Manual that said the 13th edition was the first one prepared using IBM Mag Card equipment (versions of which were available prior to 1973). This shows a 4 with a closed top.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/water/pdf/dwg/magnesiu.pdf

[Snazzy]

30. The guy who had actual IBM font samples on his site

has now selectively removed the one I would point you to (prob. a freep and a typewriter collector--we get the chicks, he gets a stack of typewriters and Rush...).

"adjutant" Very close to a Times, but with the sans closed 4.

This was a Selectric golfball and probably close to the typebar font for the Executive model.

Here's a sample from someone who made a font based on it--messy, slightly dif. and I've had it googling on this today--but the original IBM I saw at that guy's site earlier was right on (the 4 is about right here though):



The thing is, with the fax, you can't really examine the subtle differences (hinting, exactly what's up with the serifs)--there are many faces similar to Times, or that are slightly different ripoffs of Times (M$ wasn't the first). Made sense, as a first choice for their Executive to have a Times font--I used to like it/use it more before Word took over the world. Still nice big or Itals, but so over-used.

If it were a forgery, I'm not really sure we should care.

(edit--fix something, add my un-pc chicks line)

[trumad]

31. Maybe google still has the old page (guys site) in cache?

[troublemaker]

32. Hi Snazzy. Thanks. It's close but it's not Adjunct

The 4 is good but the 3s in adjunct have flat tops. In the memos they're rounded.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

[Snazzy]

33. Right about threes--but that's some fontmaker's font

Need to see the original again (that 3 looks odd in this hobbyist fontmaker's typeface). Will dig around later, someone must have more samples. There were about a dozen different golfball fonts he had on there originally, 2 or three of them had closed sans 4's--and that not to say these were exactly what was on the executive--in this 1953 ad you could order it in three styles, but I read there were other variations.

Trumad--Google's cache doesn't keep samples.

Here's a 1953 ad for the executive:



(BTW, this is stuff, fonts and docs, that actually interests me normally--I tend to agree with the comments that it is odd we are now discussing fonts and not the miserable failure).