I'm less and less convinced the documents are forged. Post evidence here.

[girl gone mad]

I haven't made up my mind one way or the other, but evidence that the documents could have been created on a typewriter available to military personnel in 1972 is mounting.

I'd like to compile some evidence in this thread, because there seems to be a great deal of it floating around on various blogs and threads.

Let me start with this document, typed using an IBM Executive, manufactured from the 1950s through the early 1970s:




http://www.microsparc.com/news.htm

[girl gone mad]

1. Here's an advertisement I found last night:

[RevCheesehead]

8. do you have an approximate date for that ad?

[girl gone mad]

23. 1958 n/t

[RevCheesehead]

24. Thanks. I'll send it to George Stephanopolis-tica

He seemed rather confused on GMA.

[girl gone mad]

27. Note the..

proportional font as well as the proportional vertical spacing, something that I've heard repeated several times now in the media 'typewriters of that time were not capable of' (that time being 14 years after this ad appeared).

[LTR]

47. IBM has been making proportional spacing typewriters since 1941

I posted it on my own thread with a bunch of links and info (thanks to Atrios, who doesn't seem to buy this bullshit, and takes Josh Marshall to task over it).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x782639

[halfastro]

2. It doesn't look good

Too many inconsistencies with the technology of the day...

the superscript, the proportional spacing, the font, the line spacing.

Looks to me like some zealous idiot got ahead of themselves. This is going to hurt the credibility of the campaign.

[Karmadillo]

3. Proportional spacing a problem? See post #1.

n/t

[gasperc]

18. some of the documents Bush released has the "th" superscript

so did Bush release FORGED documents???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[girl gone mad]

42. I think this is the document you are referring to..

Look at the 2nd line, dated 4 Sept, 1968

[veteran_for_peace]

51. YOU ROCK!!!!

What document is this.

[Paradise]

5. doubt cbs is napping. we'll know soon enough. n/t

[salvorhardin]

10. Not the same typeface

I don't know what you see, but to me they are clearly two very different typefaces. I've posted this elsewhere, but I will post this one last time here.

In the graphics below the black-on-white characters are from CBS's PDF file. The white-on-black letters are Times New Roman in Microsoft Word.

Notice the differences in the descender on the 'g' in 'August'. Also the base lines of the 'T' in 'SUBJECT'. Other differences include the offset from center leading diagonal line in the 'v' in 'obviously' and the greater upturn on the bottom curve of the 's' characters in 'pressured'. There are lots of other differences too, such as the capital 'Y' in 'CYA'.

[HFishbine]

13. Good Job Salvor!

Plain as day.

[spooky3]

39. look at the curved bottoms of the 1's, i's, and p's on the CBS file.

[HFishbine]

11. Thanks for visiting

And for a pre-head-exploding avoidance of reality.

[papau]

14. Bull - by 67 the IBM "mag" was in major offices - Tech in 72 was 5 yrs old

Indeed the "mag" (for mag tape) was replaced by everyday Selectric's that did the same at that point.

[Philostopher]

28. The 'mag' was the Selectric Composer, wasn't it?

Several of us found procurement report from an AFB in Alabama that showed they tested the Composer for use at Air Force bases in 1969. It was, if anything, more complex than any of the standard-issue Selectric machines.

Saying the only font Selectrics came with (edit) was Courier was BS anyway. They made five to seven element balls for those typewriters when I learned to type, back in '80 or '81, and I very much doubt that was any 'new innovation' to coin a redundant advertising phrase.

They don't like what they're seeing, so they're 'killing the messenger' which I'm sure was all the rage back in Nero's day. Fiddling with fonts while Rome burns, of course.

I won't accuse anybody here of 'aiding and abetting the enemy,' though -- it made me wonder, so I got myself to Googling and was able to reassure myself in about half an hour that it's almost impossible unless you were an IBM engineer or salesperson to actually say what an IBM typewriter would do, let alone what one Killian had, what features it might have had, and who might have typed the memo.

Just remember that phrase, 'killing the messenger.' It's standard politics, we do it too. We just don't have the whole echo chamber on our side, unfortunately.

[papau]

36. True :-(

:-(

[Bridget Burke]

15. Regular eye exams are a must!

I worked on an IBM Exective in the early 70's. As lousy typist at the time, learning how to deal with proportional spacing was a major headache.

What were you doing in 1972? What's your background in typing & word processing?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

19. Heee hee hee!

Awesome

[KC21304]

53. You're so right. Too many inconsistencies.

But then the Bush campaign never had much credibility to lose. You would think they would have been more careful then to come out with the forgery story, so easy to debunk with the technology of today.

[LynnTheDem]

60. Except

there are NO inconsistancies with the technology of the day.

And as Kerry's campaign had nothing to do with any of this, why would it hurt his credibility, unless you're a freeper?

[MallRat]

79. The zealous idiot might be Karl Rove.

This is his M.O.: muddy the waters of a scandal by doctoring evidence to make his candidate look like the victim of a vast left-wing conspiracy.

He's done it plenty of times. IF, and I say, IF the documents are forgeries, it could well be a Rove plant job.

-MR

[A_Possum]

83. If you think 60 Minutes are "zealous idiots"

then let me sell you a bridge...

[Karmadillo]

4. Has ANY credible expert (not Drudge etc.) claimed based on analysis

the documents are forged?

[The Magistrate]

50. No, Old Friend

No names have emerged at all, and that is no mystery. No honest expert would venture a conclusion concerning a type-written document from a copy of it; authenticity can be determined, or challenged, only with access to the original document....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[wurzel]

6. Were "letters" a deliberate plant? Another Niger?

We didn't need the letters in the first place. Now the story 1s the letters instead of Bush. The whole thing is beginning to stink.

[HFishbine]

7. Let's not lose sight of the fact

that other undisputed documents report the same "failure to accomplish annual medical examination."

[Karmadillo]

12. Another forgery!!!!!! Email Drudge!!!! They didn't have capital letters

in 1972!!!!

[senseandsensibility]

9. CBS has experts that

analyzed the handwriting and it matched.

[allemand]

26. But does have CBS the originals or only copies?

"But the characters were hard to make out after so much reproducing of the document, a problem, the CBS News official acknowledged, with the documents in the initial "60 Minutes'' program; those documents were not originals and have been copied repeatedly."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/10/politics/campaign/10guard.html?position=&pagewanted=print&position=

[yardwork]

33. Multiple copying makes things fuzzy but it can't alter spacing

It is perfectly obvious that these documents were typed, not printed on a word-processor. Typed letters jump around on the page a little bit, because they are produced by a ball or key striking the paper.

[allemand]

38. I was referring to the handwriting.

The signature may be authentic, but if you don't have the original that doesn't prove anything.

[madrchsod]

16. go to

<http://www.warblogging.com> all will be answered

[gasperc]

22. great logic in the posts, the right rather than the left likely "if" forge

very good posts trying to figure out the why and then the who, likely a dirty trick from the right to try discredit the AWOL charges entirely

[girl gone mad]

17. Someone posted this last night:

It demonstrates that the Air Force was purchasing typewriters which had both variable spacing and superscript capabilities.

https://web1.ssg.gunter.af.mil/ho/documents/chronologies/Air%20Force%20Data%20Systems%20Design%20Center%201969.doc

[tandot]

20. There have to be other documents from that unit and that time

to compare the Bush documents with.

The White House has started an all out effort to discredit these letters. I watched ABC this morning and Stephanapolis (sp?) was regurgitating that "some" experts say they might be forgeries because of the proportional spacing and the superscript.

If there were typewriters at that time who did all those things, why do these "experts" not know about it?


We have Veterans here on DU who served at the same time. Do any of you DUers have documents with the same characteristics?

[Gman]

21. This is all the evidence I need:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210987/posts

These assholes started the whole forgery thing then emailed it all over the Internet.

[librechik]

29. actually it was Powerline Blog--freepers just circulated the rumor n/t

[girl gone mad]

25. More evidence that variable spaced fonts..

were available on commercially available typewriters of the early 70s:

http://www.ibmtypewriters.com/type.html

[allemand]

37. "Seven or eight possible models" had proportional spacing

"Mini-Update: Dr. Bouffard e-mails to correct me that it was seven or eight possible models, not one or two" that had proportional spacing.

http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php

But Dr. Bouffard doesn't find the typeface in his database, notably the "4":

"Thus far, one character stood out, the number “4.” In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a “closed top,” which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs."

However, he told the NYT:

"However, Dr. Bouffard said, a colleague had called his attention to similarities between the font in the memos and that of the IBM Selectric Composer of the early 1970's.

But he said it would be unusual for Mr. Bush's commanding officer to have had the IBM machine because of its large size.

Dr. Bouffard said he would see if the fonts match more closely on Friday. "The problem I'm going to run into if this matches and Times Roman matches, to the extent of what we are able to see on these poor miserable copies that are passing around,'' he said, "then I don't think anybody's going to be able to say for sure.''"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/10/politics/campaign/10guard.html?position=&pagewanted=print&position=

[girl gone mad]

40. Maybe you should pass along..

the information from above about the AF purchasing Selectric Composers to whoever is communicating with Bouffard.

[allemand]

49. Is this the Selectric Composer Bouffard is referring to?

He "said it would be unusual for Mr. Bush's commanding officer to have had the IBM machine because of its large size."



Large size??

[kcwayne]

30. Has anyone considered the possibility that the PDF documents were OCR

generated? If someone took the original document, which is certainly not digital, scanned it with an OCR reader to create a document that could be imported into PDF as RTF as opposed to a bitmap, the OCR conversion would specify the font that goes into the RTF.

The "experts" would not base ANY analysis off of a digital copy without understanding how it got from paper to digital form.

[girl gone mad]

31. One more reason not to believe they are foged..

The White House was given these documents in advance, and did not question their authenticity.

Mclellan was asked several question about these documents, but never hinted that they weren't genuine. In fact, his answers indicated that the White House did not dispute any of facts of the memos.

[yellowcanine]

43. Exactly - WH knows they are genuine but are happy with the doubts - they

know eventually there will be a consensus that the documents are genuine but by that time the real signifigance of the documents will be lost in the shuffle. They are allowing their surrogates to push the font crap to divert attention. Divert, attack, divert, attack......

[BootinUp]

32. IBM Executive typewriter series info

The IBM Electric typewriters were a series of electric typewriters that IBM manufactured, starting in the late 1940s. They used the conventional moving carriage and hammer mechanism. Each model came in both Standard and Executive versions; the Executive differed in having a multiple escapement mechanism and four widths for letters, producing a near typeset quality result.

One model of the series was introduced in the late 1940s:

IBM Model A
Two models of the series were introduced in the 1950s:

IBM Model B
IBM Model C
One model of the series was introduced in the early 1970s:

IBM Model D

http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/IBM_Executive_series_typewriter

[girl gone mad]

56. Do you know if any of the IBM..

selectric or executive typewriters were capable of doing 13 point fonts? This seems to be a point of contention.

[BootinUp]

57. I doubt they are 13 point, who is making that claim?

If it is the Republican activist some DU'er has already revealed, and if she has only examined electronic versions of the documents, then I would sincerely doubt it is 13 point.

I only found the info via Google, I am not an expert on IBM typewriter fonts, sorry.

[girl gone mad]

61. I'm sorry, I misread, but here is the claim..

That ABC's "experts made:

The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html

(pg. 2)

Maybe someone with more expertise than us can address this. I think we;ve covered every other charge they levelled.

[salvorhardin]

63. Unlikely that it is 13 point spacing.

If all they're working from are copies or faxes or electronic images of the copies or faxes, then I can see where vertical distortion could be introduced in the copying process, especially with faxes.

There are 72 points in an inch. So 12 point would be 0.1667 inches and 13 point would be 0.1806 inches. The difference of 1 point would amount to 0.0139 inches. I can easily see where a difference of a hair more than 1/10 of an inch could be introduced in copying or faxing.

In fact, now that I look at the CBS's PDF again it looks to me as if the characters are slightly elongated suggesting that is in fact what occurrred. My eyes may be playing tricks on me with this though.

On edit: Forgot to include this link on font measurements.
http://jeff.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/measurements.html

[janx]

84. Yep. Copiers cause distortions in font and line

spacing regardless. Faxes would *really* mess up any measurements--you're right.

But I don't see why a typewriter wouldn't produce something akin to 13-point line spacing if the point size (or "pitch" as it used to be called on typewriters)was around 12. That would be quite normal, it seems to me, although it wasn't part of the typing lexicon.

[yardwork]

34. Please forward all this evidence to CBS!

I am nominating this thread for the front page of DU.

[City Lights]

35. How is it that the "experts" are not familiar with IBM typewriters

widely in use back then? Has anyone done a media blast with the evidence DU has gathered?

[allemand]

41. Does anybody know what "proportional spacing ... down the page" means?

"In addition, Flynn said, the CBS documents appear to use proportional spacing both across and down the page, a relatively recent innovation."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9967-2004Sep9?language=printer

[girl gone mad]

45. Let me see if I can explain..

It would mean the amount of space from the baseline of one line of text to the baseline of the next line is constant.

Usually this is an issue when you use two differnt font sizes, because the larger font size will force the space between two lines of text to be bigger.

IMO, it would be hard to draw any conclusions because the documents are photocopies and the font is small. I don't think more than one formt size is used, anyhow.

[allemand]

46. Thank you. This raises some doubts about Flynn's motives.

He should have pointed out that the quality of the copies is low, rather than jumping to conclusions about the use of proportional spacing.

[bushisanidiot]

59. Centering the text on the page horizontally and vertically is a basic

clerical task. Anyone who has taken a typing class knows how to center the page. You have to do it the old way.. by using mathematics.

[ItsMyParty]

44. From 1963-1966 I used the IBM Executive Typewriter

I was the secretary for the Exec. VP of a big utility company in the midwest. We had the new IBM Executives. This is how they worked differently from other typewriters. With a regular typewriter (remember how you would backspace and use correction tape to remove things)if you were backspacing to remove the word "We", you would just hit the backspace key twice with a regular typewriter; but with the Executives each letter had a different value to it. Thus the "We" would be like hit the space key once for the 'e' and three times for the "W" because of the width of the letter was so much bigger and assigned a larger space (I don't remember exactly how many spaces were assigned for each letter but, for instance, letters like "l" or "i" had only one unit (one space)as compared to like 3 or more spaces for "W" or "M". I'm trying to remember if we also had heads (the printing device was a ball)that could snap on and off. I know that somewhere within the 60's I used typewriters that had the snap on and off heads for different fonts.

[NJmaverick]

48. Here is the IBM font that made that memo

[allemand]

54. Again, the "4" is different, it doesn't have a "closed top". n/t

[girl gone mad]

66. what about this one?

[allemand]

67. Now the "4" is ok, but the "g" isn't. n/t

[girl gone mad]

69. We can always order..

The Haas Atlas 6 CD set online, for a mere $575 ;)

http://www.asqde.org/haas.htm


I'll try to find out if any of my local libraries has a copy.

[girl gone mad]

73. Look at those LBJ phone transcripts..

closed 4, closed loop on the g, it looks like it could be a close match.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0017a.htm

[allemand]

76. Nice find. I wonder how that typeface/font is called and how the

transcripts were produced.

The spacing looks different, but then the quality of the copies is really bad and the size of the font may have been transformed in the scanning process.

[girl gone mad]

52. Someone posted this in another thread..

It's the manual for the Selectric Composer, a typewriter which we know from a document linked above was being used by the Air Force:

http://ibmcomposer.org/docs/Selectric%20Composer%20Operations%20Manual.pdf

Everyone should look at this before deciding the memos could not have been made using a typewriter.

[girl gone mad]

55. Strong evidence that ABC's Independent "expert",...

Sandra Ramsey Lines, is a partisan Republican:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/527/docs/9558307.pdf

http://www.thewishlist.org/

She was consulted for this piece:

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040909_1950.html

I'm also curious as to why so many of these "experts" are from Arizona.

Edit: fixed an incorrect link!

[troublemaker]

58. REVIEW (this angle needs to be proved)

Don't worry about anything having to do with formatting -- proportional spacing, alignments, centering, etc..

Try to find this type face in an actual TYPED sample. All that matters is basic letter shapes. (Proportion and weight and shapes of strokes cannot be determined from degraded xeroxes. Only the most basic letter forms can.)

We want an IBM type ball face that looks like the memos The face must have a closed top 4 with no foot serif and a 3 with a rounded top (not a flat top)

[BootinUp]

68. But if its the IBM executive then it didn't use

type face balls.

[girl gone mad]

70. The guy who runs selectric.org..

says it couldn't have been typed on an Executive. He tryed to type it using his Executive (in poor shape) and he claims this was the result:

[troublemaker]

72. Do you have samples of the 3s and 4s

[troublemaker]

71. Okay, then not a ball... but the face still has to MATCH

[peacemeal]

62. Another point

I don't know much about fonts, but as someone who's VERY familiar with Bush's NG record, the substance of these documents makes a lot of sense (ie: the dates all add up, the names are right).

One intriguing point of substance - the 1 August 1972 memo states: "Officer has made no attempt to meet his training certification or flight physical." Bush's flight logs were just released a few days ago and one thing that stood out was that for some reason he was flying T-33s (the trainer jets) in spring 1972 - would this be so he could meet his training certification (perhaps that was required for promotion to Captain, which he should have been up for in 1972-73)?. Anyway, someone forging these documents 6 weeks ago wouldn't have known about Bush going back to flying the T-33s.

[KOBUK]

64. These can't be forged documents !

KOBUK (1 posts) Fri Sep-10-04 08:12 AM
Response to Original message

19. These can't be forged documents !


CBS sent these documents to the WH prior to there release. They released the documents knowing they were true and would be released by the network if they didn't acknowledge them.By that acknowledgment they certified them.End of story !

[girl gone mad]

65. More typed documents which resemble the Killian memos..

these LBJ phone transcripts and records from 1963, courtesy of atrios:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/contents.htm

[troublemaker]

75. Hi GGM. Can you point to one of these you think matches? I can't find one

[klook]

82. Proportional font

used in http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0017a.htm - look at the words "There," "House," and "stable" in the second paragraph. If this were monospaced, "stable" would be one character longer than the other two words. Instead, all three words are the same length.

[skip fox]

74. Hell, this guy had more than 4 memos typed on that machine.

All CBS (or any reporter) has to do is to find others memos typed around the same period. Hell, that's the easy way. There must be file drawers filled with them, carbons all the hell over the place, in individual guardsmen's files, performance reports out the whazoo, etc. . .

Has no one thought of this? (I've not had time to read entire thread. Sorry, if this has been discussed already.)

[allemand]

78. Yes, but how long will it take to get access to these files?

It seems that CBS has only copies of the documents.

[girl gone mad]

77. Does anyone have information on this?

The Wang 1200 Word Processing System was available beginning in 1971:

Arriving in the United States from China in 1945, Wang started his company, Wang Laboratories in 1951 with $600. The firm began by making calculators and other electronic items. In 1971 Wang Laboratories branched into word processors and computers, dominating the word processing market by the end of the decade. In 1986 Wang employed 30,000 people and enjoyed $3 billion in sales. Wang retired in 1982 and died of cancer in 1990. Wang was a generous philanthropist. Boston's Wang Center for the Performing Arts was named after him.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0880728.html

[girl gone mad]

80. I'm waiting to get more information on the..

Wang 1200, but I do think it had a Times Roman font.

[mememe]

81. You've got an easy way to demonstrate your case

1. You already have a sample of something produced on and IBM Executive.
2. Others are claiming they can easily reproduce the documents using Word 97.
3. You can similarly reproduce your sample using Word 97 to show that it's not big deal.

I was able to get identical page breaks, spacing, etc. as on the CBS documents using Word in less than 5 minutes. What did that prove? I'm not sure if it proved anything. If you can do the same for your document it proves that reproducing these sort of things using Word is nothing to get excited about.

Let us know the results.

[girl gone mad]

85. We've already agreed..

that it probaably wasn't created on an Executive.

Just because a few lines can be lined up with a document in word 97 (IIRC, only the first 4 or 5 lines of one document match up) does not necessarilty mean the document was created in Word.

[allemand]

86. Evidence that the memos were typed on a Selectric Composer

http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_shape_of_days/2004/09/the_ibm_selectr.html

Look at the similarities ! Even the "4" is exactly as it should be. So the typeface can be identified as "Press Roman" (maybe 11-point).

The author of the blog still tries to dismiss the evidence, but the one who provided the example states that he could have reproduced the memos with absolute accuracy:
"Yes, if I had really tried, I could have matched the spacing (leading). The leading on the composer can be finely adjusted. Don't know if it is down to the single point level, but it probably is since you can set the leading according to the font, and the leading dial goes from something like 6pt up to 14pt."

Also the centering should not be that difficult. And the addresses and the memos were not necessarily typed on the same day, maybe they had some forms prepared in advance (prepared on the same day, but used for memos 3 months apart).

Bouffard now also says that it was done on a Selectric Composer:
"Bouffard, the Ohio document specialist, said that he had dismissed the Bush documents in an interview with The New York Times because the letters and formatting of the Bush memos did not match any of the 4,000 samples in his database. But Bouffard yesterday said that he had not considered one of the machines whose type is not logged in his database: the IBM Selectric Composer. Once he compared the Bush memos to Selectric Composer samples obtained from Interpol, the international police agency, Bouffard said his view shifted."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/11/authenticity_backed_on_bush_documents?pg=2

[Sven77]

87. dont know if this has been posted yet - Dailey Kos

TANG Typewriter Follies; Wingnuts Wrong
by Hunter
Fri Sep 10th, 2004 at 15:37:04 GMT

(From the diaries -- kos)

Against my own better judgment, but because I believe that the more rapidly charges are countered, the better, I spend a goodly portion of the last day researching -- shudder -- typewriters of the '60s and '70s. As everyone on the planet no doubt knows by now, the hard-right of the freeper contingent -- specifically, LittleGreenFootballs, a site which frequently is cited for eliminationist rhetoric and veiled racism, and PowerLine, a site linked to with admiration by such luminaries as Michelle Malkin and Hugh Hewitt -- discovered that if you used the same typeface, you could make documents that looked almost -- but not exactly -- like the TANG documents discovered by CBS News. This qualifies as big news, of course, so from those two sites, the story has spread into the mainstream media through the usual channels, most notably Drudge, NRO, etc.

continues at link > http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603