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Calm down y'all, even IF the documents are forgeries...

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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:29 AM
Original message
Calm down y'all, even IF the documents are forgeries...
Edited on Fri Sep-10-04 07:30 AM by npincus
... the Kerry campaign's hands are clean. This is a black eye to CBS, and if ANYONE from Kerry's camp comments on this, it is a TRAP.

Right now, what we should not let smoke from this fire cover what are undisputed facts about Bush's Guard service as revealed in the Boston Globe (master)piece. WE are our own worst enemy... let this play out, and stay focused on what we do know, per The Boston Globe:



But Bush fell well short of meeting his military obligation, a Globe reexamination of the records shows: Twice during his Guard service -- first when he joined in May 1968, and again before he transferred out of his unit in mid-1973 to attend Harvard Business School -- Bush signed documents pledging to meet training commitments or face a punitive call-up to active duty.

He didn't meet the commitments, or face the punishment, the records show. The 1973 document has been overlooked in news media accounts. The 1968 document has received scant notice.

On July 30, 1973, shortly before he moved from Houston to Cambridge, Bush signed a document that declared, ''It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months. . . " Under Guard regulations, Bush had 60 days to locate a new unit.

But Bush never signed up with a Boston-area unit. In 1999, Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Washington Post that Bush finished his six-year commitment at a Boston area Air Force Reserve unit after he left Houston. Not so, Bartlett now concedes. ''I must have misspoke," Bartlett, who is now the White House communications director, said in a recent interview.

And early in his Guard service, on May 27, 1968, Bush signed a ''statement of understanding" pledging to achieve ''satisfactory participation" that included attendance at 24 days of annual weekend duty -- usually involving two weekend days each month -- and 15 days of annual active duty. ''I understand that I may be ordered to active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months for unsatisfactory participation," the statement reads.

Yet Bush, a fighter-interceptor pilot, performed no service for one six-month period in 1972 and for another period of almost three months in 1973, the records show.

The reexamination of Bush's records by the Globe, along with interviews with military specialists who have reviewed regulations from that era, show that Bush's attendance at required training drills was so irregular that his superiors could have disciplined him or ordered him to active duty in 1972, 1973, or 1974. But they did neither. In fact, Bush's unit certified in late 1973 that his service had been ''satisfactory" -- just four months after Bush's commanding officer wrote that Bush had not been seen at his unit for the previous 12 months.




DO NOT FALL INOT ROVE'S TRAP, everybody! They have been contolling the discourse because we have let them. (Such as Kerry responding to Bush's challenge about his support of the war "knowing what we know now") I still believe Kerry can win this, but we cannot panic- we must beat them like a drum where they are vulnerable, and stay on message.

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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why do you think they are not authentic?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Exactly - DO NOT BUY THE FORGERIES SPIN - GOP assertion is
always a lie - followed by media only noting the assertion - and refusing to follow the truth.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. I hate the media
Can Kerry bring the Fairness Doctrine back WHEN he's elected? I sure hope so.

It's time to clean media house.
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. I didn't say they were or were not...
I really don't know. I know CBS is cinducting an internal investigation about this and the authenticity of the documents is being questioned- here's an article off the AP which mentions the issue:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=1&u=/ap/20040910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_guard_flights

Check out another DU thread which covers the same issue:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=779692&mesg_id=779692

What I want to say (above) is let it play out independently and do not let it distract us.
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halfastro Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. This is bad news
If the documents are proved to be forgeries (and they certainly seem to be) this will essentially close the debate about Bush's (lack of) National Guard duty. Realistically folks, this is one huge f@ck up and it won't matter if Kerry's hands are clean. This issue has now become moot.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Why do you think they certainly seem to be forgeries
And why do you think this is bad news? And why do you put "this is bad news" in quotes?
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. great post, let's stay focused folks, where was George!!!!
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
where was George!!!!,
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. I haven't read or heard any credible evidence they
are forged. Rather it appears CBS has plenty of corroborating evidence.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. The documents are NOT forgeries...I can assure you that CBS...
...would never have released them if they suspected for even a minute that they were fakes.

As to Rove, you're giving that guy way too much credit. This is NOT a "trap" engineered by Rove. If he was THAT good as a political operative, he would never have gone along with the Swiftboat fiasco that blew up in their faces.
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renotyme Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. methinks thou doth protest too much
let the chips fall where they may, CBS is no more infallable than any other news organization, such as the NYT (blair).
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I don't think I've made my point...
I am not on either side of the challenge to the authenticity of the documents. We're all on the same side.

The fact is, this is playing out in the media where perception matters, sometimes more than the truth- the Swift Boat Liars were effective, the polls have shown. To use an expression, before we "get our panties in a knot" over any controversies on the sidelines that we do not own, we should not be demoralized or distracted.

I have read other threads on this board on the subject this morning, and my message is a response to those who are upset, anxious and feel somehow Kerry may be damaged by this. These are DUers expressing themselves, and that is my messgae to them.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
8. Didn't the White House release the same docs?
Or did I hear that wrong?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. They are likely not forgeries and their foolishness keeps the story alive
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Forgeries by the Bush camp - now THAT'S something to worry about.
Warblogging.com (and a few others) have brought that up. Bush operatives make crude forgeries, big stink made over guard service, oh my look the docs ARE forgeries, gosh that must mean that any criticism of dingbat's being AWOL is automatically null and void.

That worries me.
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russian33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. Didn't the WH release the same docs that...
..are now accussed of being forgeries? I haven't been following this story really, can't take the spin.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. yes.....
The WH released the docs and never questioned the authenticity of the docs....
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. Welcome to DU!
The WH will do everything they can to confuse and befuddle the press. So what?

The questions about Bush's service remain. Let him answer them.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
15. this sh*t wouldnt be happening if bush came clean
on bush's shoulders, alone.

with a drunk, they never own. tough love. teach em his to own. he has created this mess exclusively.

our line

if bush had been honest, people wouldnt have to be digging for info. all he has to do is tell us what happened.

his story doesnt work. this we know
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
16. Bush fled, Kerry bled.
Bush fled, Kerry bled.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
17. If they are found to be forgeries......
than I think Bush is off the hook on this whole TANG/Alabama National Guard issue....even though there is plenty of other evidence from documents even released by the WH and Pentagon that clearly show Bush took off to Alabama without permission from his commander and then skipped out on the Alabama Guard and then went further and never showed up for Guard duty in Masssachusetts like Bush promised.....the perception will be, if in fact these docs are forgeries, that Bush was set up and all this talk about Bush not fulfilling his Gaurd duty is just all politics and not believable....because one or 2 docs are forgeries the whole story of Bush and his Guard services is a forgery and not true....I dont believe this but I am just saying that will be the perception out there in the heartland....
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
20. YOU just fell into Rove's trap
by even hypothetically accepting the premise, based on nothing, that the documents are forgeries.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. In Any Case, Ms. Pincus
There has yet emerged no reason beyond shrill assertion to suppose the documents are forged.

All "expert" commentary has been made by persons who have examined only copies, which is a particularly poor practice. Type-written documents, even after many years, have distinctive surface characteristics that can only be determined from the originals of the papers in question. Most other points on which the assertions are grounded seem to be shaky claims of absolute knowledge of what sort of equipments were available at the time the documents are dated to.

There will soon enough emerge conclusive evidence relating to things like the age of the paper stock and the types of ink marking it that will settle the question. Forgeries of old documents are difficult enough to pull off that only a serious fool would attempt it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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