One thing we are all missing about Bush's "past"....

[vi5]

A lot of his core following are born again or are sympathetic to the idea of being born again. It doesn't matter what he did in the past because he was "saved". He found the lord who forgave him his sins, and if he forgave him then there's no reason bush's followers wouldn't or shouldn't do the same. Even people who may not be born again or evangelical but are deeply christian appreciate and go for the whole redemption angle.

As an atheist, this is absurd to me on every possible level. I don't get it and I never will. But it is true about a large segment of the voting populus and is why our pinning our hopes that "the past" will come back to haunt him in this election is, I believe misplaced. It's why this stuff doesn't stick to him.

Should we try? Sure. I just realize that it's an uphill battle and we're in for a world of frustration. I don't see this aspect of our struggle to get the word out about Bush and the trouble we have doing so being discussed on here.

[hlthe2b]

1. Well, that is why the cocaine use, if true is such an issue--

snorting up repeatedly at Camp David during the Bush I years was clearly AFTR his "being born again/salvation.'

[vi5]

2. I still don't think it matters to people as much as we think it does...

I honestly think that people, even his non-rabid supporters view anything he did prior to becoming president and fulfilling his mission from god, as completely irrellevant.

[Catfight]

3. But when you ask for forgiveness, you don't continue to lies, you come

clean. Even though Bush says he's saved, he does not live a life of a Christian if he is lying, hiding, and pointing fingers about Kerry when his own house is a mess! This won't look good on Bush domestically and abroad. Not that any country abroad can understand why the 'smart' Americans continue to rally behind a very ignorant bully. I ask myself that question too, "why Americans don't want the bar to be high for us? Why do we want to lower it to accommodate a simple minded man?" It's sad to me, we are teaching our children that it doesn't matter how hard you work, you just need to have a rich parent to get you in high places. Bush is just a plain bad example for kids, besides, he did cocaine and he's an alcoholic, he has no control of himself. Kids do not need to be exposed to such a person. Look at his girls, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, they've already been arrested for under age drinking, come on America, wake UP!

[vi5]

4. But that's my point....

The here. The now. Not the 70's or 80's or whatever. We have to show and prove what he's doing wrong NOW. Although even then I fear there is such a sizable segment of people under his messianic spell.

[Francine Frensky]

5. What we SHOULD be doing is showing bush's evil side

like all the times he has that creepy smile when he talks about death/blood.

Can you imagine a commercial that highlights that smile?? And shows him next to Jack Nicholson in the shining??

That would freak out the religious types.

[Senior citizen]

9. Unfortunately, the "religious" types might love it.

Some of those "religious" types are pure evil. Their brand of Christianity tells them that the male is like unto the Lord and has complete sway over his chattels--meaning he can rape the wife and molest the kids at will. They are fully aware that Democrats tend to disagree with their perverse interpretation of "religion."

Although they may not openly claim to worship Satan, when they use Satan to frighten their chattels into submission, their true allegiance becomes obvious.

I ran into one yesterday in the lobby of my building. He saw my Kerry button and called me a traitor.

Today I happened to be helping serve lunch at the Senior Center, and guess who walks in? I said, "Oh, sorry, you really don't want to eat here--this is a social program and you want to cut social programs." He kind of slunk away and didn't respond. But why would a low income senior who lives in Section 8 housing, which the chimp just cut some of the funding for, who will have to pay more for Medicare thanks to the chimp, and who eats at a subsidized program that isn't faith-based, vote against his own interests if he isn't a child molester? Fortunately, he is in a very small minority here. I personally encounter hundreds of Kerry supporters every day in my building, at the senior center, and at the library, and I've only met four pukes.

I will say that a couple of months ago I went shopping and some men in suits brushed past me. I moved quickly away from them, and then wondered why I assumed that any white male in a suit was a Republican child molester.

Evil people LIKE the chimp's evil nature. They are kindred spirits. They don't care what he does, because they know he doesn't care what they do, so long as they do it to the poor, weak, and defenseless, and so long as they show respect to their economic betters. Believe me, ordinary Germans wouldn't have turned away from Hitler if they'd known about the concentration camps. They KNEW about the camps. It was impossible not to know when corpses were being incinerated in their neighborhoods. They didn't care what was done to others, because they thought that THEY would be better off, and that THEY were the only ones who mattered. And God was on their side, remember?

We are the majority in this country. We have to keep working to get out the vote, and to reach anyone who is on our side but doesn't understand the urgency. There are a few who will be swayed by understanding how completely evil this misadministration is, but the ones who are themselves evil, know that they're on the side of evil itself because that's where they want to be.

[benddem]

6. apparently to *

the commandment about lying doesn't appear to apply. He's lied every time he's made comments about his military career. There are lies in his biography. Being born again can't cover that up. But since is a war monger I do not believe one word about his born again status. He doesn't even sound like a christian.

[kestrel91316]

8. Of course he's not a true christian.....................

any true christian would have commuted Karla Faye Tucker's sentence in part because SHE had become born-again and mended her ways. Instead Bush MOCKED her as he killed her. The man is not a christian, he's the f---ing antichrist!

[AntiFascist]

7. Associates

The people that Bush associates with are an important factor. What does the bible say about the rich? A majority of Americans don't like Cheney and don't trust him. Rumsfeld has always been creepy and is now tarnished by Abu Graib. Condi Rice has strong ties with the oil industry (along with others). Powell may jump ship? What do the born agains see in this administration outside of Bush? His strongest appeal to the religious right was the Federal marriage amendment, but I think this is backfiring on him big time. One of the biggest dangers if Bush gets elected is that he will appoint conservative supreme court justices, as several will be retiring during the next term. This may be enough to overturn Roe v. Wade, and the only remaining reason for bible thumpers to flock to Bush.

[Octafish]

10. vi5: Word.

My buddy is a reformed fundie. He says Smirk could have snorted up half of Columbia's chief export, crashed a dozen T-38's while drunk, and gotten a STD clinic full of the clap and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. Fundies would forgive him. In fact, the worse the sinner was before he was Saved, the more the fellow fundies adore the person after he or she is "Born Again."

There's only one exception. Homosexuality.

So. Where's Victor Ashe been hanging 'round lately? Warsaw? Kitty Kelley knows.

[lupita]

11. We won't convince his base, but what about independents?

Those are really the ones we want to convince that the man has never had any idea of what responsibility and good judgement mean.

[A_Possum]

12. Yes, they don't think it matters

That's exactly the words my nutso fundie sister uses, right after she says you'll go to hell if you don't vote for bush.

However, if he's lying NOW about stuff he did back then, trying to hide it so hard--instead of just coming clean--I think that would be another matter. At that point they have to just say, well, it's ok, he can eat babies cause God chose him. And that will winnow out a few who haven't gone entirely over the edge.

[Justice]

13. I don't agree completely

Yes, your sins are forgiven and your soul made snowy white. But there is also accountability, obedience and respect. In the end only George Bush and God know what he believes and whether he is going to heaven. I don't know what is in his heart, I only know what I see from his actions and behavior -- and this is what troubles me.

I read this website http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evidence.htm, which outlines "ten evidences the true believer in Jesus Christ possesses" I read the four of the 10 below, and truly wonder whether George W. possesses these 'evidences' and here is why:

I. SUBMISSIVE RESPECT

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8)
Do you respect God? Is your opinion just as important or even more relevant than His? Are God's pronouncements authoritative in your life? Is Jesus Christ your Lord?

1. George believes his opinion is more important than anyone else - he mocks people, cuts them off, refuses to speak to them etc. Perhaps he does not respect God as well.


II. SCRIPTURE OBEDIENCE

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5)
Do you read the Bible daily? Do you read the Scriptures seeking to obey what you find? Are you in rebellion against God's Word or in submission to it? Do you love the Bible?

1. I have never seen Bush read a bible. I struggle how a man could behavior as he does and read the bible, and believe he does not read it.

III. SOCIETAL REJECTION

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (1 John 2:15)
Do you love the world, your money, and your possessions? Do they mean more to you than Jesus Christ and His approval? Would you be willing to give up all for Christ?


1. Please - George has shown us he loves money and power above all else. He loves it for himself and for his rich friends.

V. SECOND COMING ANTICIPATION

"When he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3)
Are you living in the daily awareness that Jesus Christ will return for His own? Are you eagerly looking forward to His coming for you? Does your daily life reflect the fact that He may come today? Are you ready to meet Him at any time?

1. Does George act as if God might appear tomorrow? Is he worried about whether he lied today or behaved well - worried that maybe God would appear tomorrow?

VI. SIN SENSITIVITY

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9)
Does your sin bother you? Do you wish you sinned less than you do? Are you sinning less now than when you first made a profession of faith in Christ? Do you enjoy your sin, or does it affect your happiness? Do you realize God sees all sin?

1. It is a sin to lie. My daughter told me today that her teacher told her that the commandment "thou shalt not kill" includes killing someone's feelings and personality. Do you think Bush killed the spirit and feelings of Carla Fay Tucker the woman in Texas when he mocked her request for clemency? Do you think it bothers Bush to lie?


I read this and am forced to conclude that Bush is not living as a born again person lives, and therefore he is either not born again, or he was born again but now he ihas sinned repeatedly. Someone should tell him, it is not like life, your daddy can't bail you out time and time again so you can become born again time and time again.

[Minimus]

14. and then there are those that are way way to the right

that do not think Bush is a true christian.

here are a couple of interesting sites (warning, they are deep fundies):

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bushrecord.html

from The Bush Betrayal:

"Recently, many "pro-lifers" heaped voluminous praise upon Mr. Bush when he decided to withhold a miniscule (by comparison) $34 million in federal funds from UNFPA (a UN abortion agency in China). What these ignorant (or deluded) "pro-lifers" failed to notice was that Bush redirected that $34 million to USAID Child Survival Health Program Fund. This fund includes money for "forecasting, purchasing, and supplying contraceptive commodities and other materials necessary for reproductive health programs." In other words, all President Bush did was play the old shell game by taking $34 million from one pro-abortion agency and giving it to another pro-abortion agency. As American Life League President Judy Brown said, "These 'contraceptive commodities' are nothing but abortion-inducing chemicals that kill the very children that the fund claims to help."


also, the people at this site think he is satan:

http://www.repentamerica.com/bushrevealed/

[Minimus]

16. why christians should not vote for Bush

http://www.wherethetruthhurts.org/tractsbooksread.php?w=59

"Do I believe that sincere, well-meaning Christians can vote for George Bush and be right with God? Sure! I believe that a sincere, well-meaning Christian can vote Democratic and be right with God. However, even unintended ignorance can destroy a nation and God’s people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6) Intentional or malicious ignorance in the absence of the fear of God brings culpability and judgment (Proverbs 9), and of this I fear many professing Christians are guilty in their endorsement of George Bush in spite of the abundance of evidence of his evil fruit."


I have a field day with these sites. I work with Southern Baptists and they are all so "righteous" and love Bush. I enjoy making them squirm by giving them details why Bush isn't really a "good Christian"

[liberal N proud]

15. A true Christian would not do the things dubya has done

Is it Christian financial wisdom as national policy to advocate huge tax cuts for the rich in time of war and record deficits?
Is it Christian to export our best jobs to Red China, a country that persecutes, imprisons and kills Christians?
Is it Christian to offer tax incentives (subsidies with your tax dollars) to rich corporations and super-rich individuals when we know in advance this policy only impoverishes mainstream America?
Is it Christ-like to favor the rich and offer only callousness to the poor and the middle-class just struggling to keep what they have?
Is it Christian financial wisdom as national policy to advocate huge tax cuts for the rich in time of war and record deficits?Is it Christian to send troops into battle without enough support and against the advice of the professional military?
Is it Christian to act like a “know-it-all” and accuse people of being unpatriotic when they love their country and their troops more than their president?
Is it Christian to play games of deceit with the American people and lie about the impact of national tax cuts and federal funding when said president and his advisors know that states and localities will be forced to raise their taxes to compensate?

[MAlibdem]

17. I don't think the point of bringing up Bush's past is to sway his core

who are those born-again christians. They only make up 1/4 - 1/3 of the population. Their's a wacky 1/6 - 1/4 of the population that ISN'T a born again Christian AND votes republican.

They can be swayed on Bush's past issues. Though in all honesty I would prefer a return to the issues, because when that's all that is talked about, we win every time.