When someone is assasinating your character you track down

[rumguy]

those who are doing it and you beat them into a bloody pulp.,

Kerry didn't do that with the shitboaters, and that is why he is no longer ahead.

He said he'd fight for us. Remember? Well he damn well better get in gear, time is running out.

[kentuck]

1. We do see how the Bush campaign reacts with a vicious counter attack....

on the documents. Even though they don't have a leg to stand on and he should be gasping for air, it is the messenger that is to blame... The documents are forged....etc... They have a good response team...even when they are called to defend lies.

[rumguy]

2. They and their minions jumped on it immediatly

What did we do with the shitboaters? No one said anything for days and days as the news coverage was almost 24/7 all about the shitboaters.

[Democat]

3. No shit - the Bush people didn't wait over 2 weeks to fight back!

Some people here at DU actually believed there was some sort of strategy in place when we were getting our asses kicked without fighting back.

If you want to see strategy, watch what Bush's people are doing with the memos. They started undermining the credibility of the memos and everyone associated with them in the same day that the memos were released, not weeks later after the damage was done!

After Kerry wins, we'll look back on this election and wonder how it could have been so close when it should have been a landslide.

We need new leadership in the Democratic Party. It's time to stop with the "high road" bullshit and start fist fighting every day. The Republican attacks won't stop when Kerry gets elected, they'll just get worse. We can't win by being nice.

[rumguy]

6. Unfortunetaly I was one of those who thought they were putting together

some kind of grand response...

Alas, nothing came...

Some of the shitboat junk has been watered down, and countered, but not effectively.

It still lingers and casts a shadow over the entire election, and I imagine it will be like that right up until November 2nd.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

4. How many have resigned from The Bush campaign over this?

at least 3, inlcuding Bush's lawyer.

Kerry is beating them into pulp over it. Bloody pulp.

[Leilani]

36. I don t see any blood on the floor but Kerry s...

Kerry s reputation was smeared. That was bad enough, but the fact that he did not counter it made him look weak & wishy washy.

Look at the internals of the polls...some people may not like Bush, but they see him as strong, & Kerry as weak.

[yardwork]

58. I think that Kerry reorganized his campaign in response to a problem

I agree that it was a strategic mistake to let the Smear Vet lies continue unchallenged. Apparently Kerry gave his team time to prove that their strategy would work. It didn't. Kerry acted quickly to correct the problem.

That is leadership. That is being loyal to your team, but assessing their performance. That is showing decisive decision-making. It looks good to me.

[bklyncowgirl]

67. Political junkies know this. Most people do not know it or don't care.

Yup, they were dirty. You know what. It doesn't matter one damn bit. Kerry looked like a wimp and that was all that mattered.

[Demi_Babe]

5. You're completely

underestimating John Kerry and also underestimating the power of being calm, cool and collected...in other words...focused in the home stretch!

[rumguy]

7. maybe so

but looking back I still think it would have been better if Kerry came out the next day and found the shitboaters and kicked their teeth down their throat, so to speak...

this is America - you gotta be tough.

[Demi_Babe]

8. I don't want to tell you what that sounds like

I am new here and don't want to start out on the wrong foot but that sounded like a republican response!:spank:

[rumguy]

9. it used to be our playbook too

we need to get back our toughness...

our party is fuckin' weak these days...

[shraby]

10. Who actually thinks if Kerry

had said anything that it would have made the news? If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise?

[rumguy]

11. It would have made the news

trust me...

[Leilani]

40. After the Republican convention, Kerry announced

a midnight rally to answer the rhetoric.

The press showed up, I tuned in & so did lots of other people, & it was a joke. After 20 minutes, MSNBC broke away. CNN broke earlier. It was weak & meandering.

[PittLib]

12. I thought we were supposed to be smarter

(read: better) than that. You throw a punch when you've run out of things to say. What makes us weak? That we aren't cruel like the repubs? That we don't resort to pot shots and low blows, like the repubs? That we aren't morally unscrupulous and judgmental LIKE the repubs? Yeah, we're a bunch of pussies. But we're right.

[rumguy]

13. Wrong - you stand up for what is right

You fight for you convinctions.

American politics is not a genteel sport or an academic exercise, it's a bloody slaughterhouse, and if you want to win you have to have a great jab, hook, and uppercut.

[shrub chipper]

14. I keep hearing that no one likes "negative politics". but...

from here it sure looks like those shit slingers are more effective that the high road we are taking!

I think only the self appointed pundits are against negative campaigning, and they obviously are against everything the Democrats do anyway!

I agree that Democrats are going to have to be lots tougher and meaner. It is unbelievable that we are running this poorly against the worst president ever with economic misery at home and an illegal war going badly. If we can't win this election , what one can we win??

[rumguy]

15. I think it's human nature to gravitate towards strength

We are animals after all, survival is paramount.

When someone is attacked and they don't respond, that is weak.

[shrub chipper]

22. I agree!!

There should have been outrage from the very first appearance of the SBVFT ads.

They were obvious lies and since they were not discredited by the media or even by Kerry all that much, they got a free ride for a very long time.
You can't put that genie back in the bottle.

[kentuck]

16. But the sheeple don't know it's "negative" politics..

They believe it is true. It is disguised as something credible and legitimate...not easily recognizable to the average voter. For example, Kerry didn't even bleed when he got his Purple Hearts... That's a negative ad or comment, but people don't necessarily accept it as 'negative'... they accept it as fact, according to who the messenger is...

[shrub chipper]

19. I think that is the problem.

Most people cannot think and weigh the difference between what is true and what is a lie.

Just like "journalists' now think they are even handed by presenting both sides of an issue, when IMO their job is to tell who is lying and who is being truthful.

For years, I laughed at the Right when they decries the 'liberal' media, but now I know exactly how they felt as I have seen the devastating effect that a biased media has on getting the message out to the Country.

[PittLib]

17. Oh, so what you're saying is that we need to fight

the beefed-up, my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad, testosterone fueled fight, right. Hmmm - that smell is familiar... what could it be? - Why yes it's the smell of ... hypocrisy!

[rumguy]

23. It doesn't have to be cartoonish

but when someone attacks your character, your very reputation, you must respond and you must do so forcefully - in manner that removes all doubt from the minds of all but the most partisan that the other side is peddling complete nonesense and garbage.

That is how it is done.

[shrub chipper]

24. I completely agree!

[Leilani]

42. So do I!

[PittLib]

28. First of all ... aww f@#k it - there is no "first of all" ...

This is what those assholes want. They want to get a rise of of Kerry because it distracts from the real issues. They are trying to stymie him. I feel that way too much time has been wasted on this sh@t. Seriously, I could give a rat's ass about what they did or didn't do at this point. Tell me what you are going to do after Nov 2nd. And furthermore, why does he need to dignify their pathetic accusations with a response? When I see GW on TV, I immediately turn it off. It makes me ill to hear his "tough talk". That is all he's given us. FOUR YEARS of bullsh@t rhetoric. Shut the f@#k up and SHOW me. I just don't see the point in trying to morph our candidate into what we despise. I swear ... everything I've posted tonight has been the written equivalent of butting my head against the freaking wall!

[kentuck]

32. I wished everyone could see it as clear as you, PittLib...

But unfortunately, according to the polls, they do not. You are correct in your views, but most folks obviously think he is a brave and courageous leader. That is what we are trying to defeat. And that is where the doubts lay.

[PittLib]

37. Lie. That is where the doubts lie. Sorry ...

I just like the double meaning. I'm beginning to consider pulling up stakes and moving on regardless of whether Kerry wins (which he will). I'm not sure what is worse: A) the thought that the American public really is that shallow, or B) that we truly believe the American public to be that shallow. Because either way ... I'm starting to think that we'll get what we deserve. And people wonder why education is my drum to beat. I swear EVERYTHING could be solved by education. But thanks anyway Kentuck.

[kentuck]

39. Good catch!

I intentionally changed it. :)

[yardwork]

60. In hindsight, it would have been better to respond immediately

But apparently Kerry and his team had a different strategy. When it didn't work, he adjusted. Kerry has new advisors now. He's shaken up his central team.

[Julien Sorel]

18. Exactly how do you kick someone's teeth down their throat?

I'd like to see an example of some of your suggestions, since you seem so tough and so smart, and such an expert on the subject of teeth kicking.

I'm highly impressed, I have to admit, by what the Bush people have done and said -- absolutely nothing -- as a way of teeth throat kicking, now I'd like to see your suggestions on how to make Kerry a good teeth throat kicker, just like Bush. Because it's obvious you're very, very smart, and very, very knowledgeable about kicking teeth down throats. So enlighten me, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicking master.

[rumguy]

20. you know what I mean

It was hypberbolic analogy.

[Julien Sorel]

27. Then give me a "hyperbolic analogy"

of how Kerry should "hyperbolically analogously" kick teeth down throats? It's so obvious that you know, reading your post.

[rumguy]

30. The campaign should have come out swinging

For about two or three weeks, nothing else mattered.

Kerry could have worked some references to the lies into his stump speeches, just a few - and then given an interview or two where he clearly outlined why he thought the charges were garbage.

Those in his campaign should have fought the lies more effectively in the media - pointed out the inconsistencies, the other eyewitnesses, etc...

Some of that was done, but not enough, now the time has passed, and the shitboat stench still lingers.

[Julien Sorel]

35. That's kicking teeth down throats?

Working the lies into his speeches is kicking teeth down throats?

Those in his campaign should have fought the lies more effectively in the media - pointed out the inconsistencies, the other eyewitnesses, etc...

This was done on August 7, three days after the book was released. The media ignored it. In May, O'Neil's claims had been examined and dismissed as essentially lies by some journalists who had read advanced copies of his book, I believe. This was ignored by the media. Kerry has been travelling around for almost a year now with the people who served with him on the boats, "The other witnesses."

Everything you seem to think is "teeth throat kicking" had been done, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker, yet the story continued and continued. Perhaps the truth is, you have no fucking idea what teeth throat kicking is, besides some tough-sounding words that would give cover to a thread that is in reality, just a whiny-assed recap of Republican talking points: that Kerry is weak, Kerry can't defend against lies, so he can't defend against terrorism, and so on.

To the extent that the Swift Hoax hurts Kerry, it will largely be because of weak-minded "Democrats" who are too foolish to actually uncover facts. They hear that "Kerry should have 'fought back'," so assume that he did nothing. And then whine like a hungry puppy, "Why isn't he tough? Why isn't he doing anything? Why? Why? Why?"

Of course, none of this applies to you -- you are a tough teeth throat kicker. I meant other whiny, faux-tough talking, weak-minded "Democrats." Really I did.

[rumguy]

41. You mention the lies - and then you mock them and hold them

up for ridicule...

That would have been nice.

These were personal attacks on Kerry himself. He needed to make a more personal response.

And his spokespeople needed to be more effective. It was well documented here on DU, and other sites, how inept some of the Kerry spokepeople were at fighting these lies.

Like I said, there was some effort, but not enough. The Nixon connections to O'Neill, the internal contradictions in the shitboaters' stories, the other eyewitnesses, should have been hammered into the media storyline. Are most people even aware of those salient facts?

You kick their teeth in by driving a dagger through the heart of their credibility. There was a window of about two or three weeks when that could have been done, but it didn't happen. Hence, the shitboat stench lingers.

I would have liked to have seen a more aggressive, more focused response.

[Julien Sorel]

46. How do you know what "enough" was.

Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker? I don't want to accuse you of sitting around and using hindsight -- far be it -- but exactly how should the Kerry campaign have gauged what would be "enough?" Keeping in mind, of course, that as soon as he focused on this issue, the same media that refused to pay attention to the copious material proving O'Neil was about as honest as you are tough, would have then been in a position to criticize Kerry for "overreacting" to a non-event.

And his spokespeople needed to be more effective. It was well documented here on DU, and other sites, how inept some of the Kerry spokepeople were at fighting these lies.

Unfortunately, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker, the media, not the Kerry campaign, decides who goes on the talking head shows. The people who go on those shows are responsible for just how prepared they are. Or aren't. To the extent that they suck, it's because the DNC has made little or no effort to get a stable of educated, articulate spokespeaople out there pounding home the same message. This is something that would take some time to remedy, but Kerry is responsible for this, too, presumably -- another example of his failing to kick in teeth.

I trust most "documentation" on DU about as much as I trust campaign literature coming from the Bush people. In many cases, like this whole thread, the message is identical, anyway.

[rumguy]

51. Ok Mr. Afraid To Kick Liars In The Face

See I can use funny nicknames too!

The shitboat stench still lingers, so obviously a failure occurred. If you want to blame the media- fine, there is truth to that.

However, it wasn't a non-event. It was a direct attack on Kerry's character. It required some personal attention from him - more than he gave it. What the media whores say does not matter. What the American people see from Kerry does matter, however.

The media is biased against Kerry, using the same methods they used to trash Gore. But they will still allow Kerry and his people on to talk about issues. I've never seen any evidence that any news program is keeping Kerry or his people from responding to anything.

And you're right the DNC needs a stable of coordinanted, highly efficient talkers to send out and spread the meassage. In my opinion, part of the reason the pugs are dominating the news cycles is because they did just that. They got tough with the media and the media caved in to them.

We need to do the same.

Look - I'm not saying the race is over, and I'm not saying other aspects of Kerry's campaign are not working - I'm just saying the lack of an adequate response to the shitboaters has held his campaign down this last month. Their confusion was understandable given the strange media environment they operate within. I still think Kerry can win, hopefully he will turn the dynamic to his favor, or at the very least, outside events will turn the dynamic in his favor.

[Julien Sorel]

54. Gee,

The shitboat stench still lingers, so obviously a failure occurred. If you want to blame the media- fine, there is truth to that.


Really, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker? Can you prove that Kerry could have set this up so that no "shitboat stench still lingers?" Because the only way you can absolutely demonstrate that "a failure occurred," is to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that something could have been done about it. Until you can prove that, this is about as valid as crying that Kerry should be out kicking in teeth by doing things he's already doing. Or the claims by some of the other morons here that Kerry should have a huge lead now, in the face of a lot of modeling evidence that says otherwise. They ignore, or are ignorant of, that evidence just as you ignored, or were ignorant of, the fact that everything you asked Kerry to do had already been done. Of course, you then immediately switched to, "Yes, but he should have done more." I suppose when one is an expert on kicking in teeth, consistency and knowledge are irrelevant.

[rumguy]

56. Gee,

I am only voicing my opinion - it doesn't require any scientific modeling.

The shitboat attacks were uniquely personal, and they were riddled with lies and distortions. There was a window of about two weeks when I think Kerry should have personally addressed these attacks. I think a more forceful, personal response by Kerry within that window would have blunted more of the shitboat stench.

That window of time has passed now. The best we can hope for at this point is a knock out in the debates on this issue, or some kind of unearthed evidence that directly ties Rove to the shitboaters.

[Julien Sorel]

64. Well, Mr Teeth Throat Kicker,

"your opinion" lingers with me. I think everyone would benefit in the future if, before adopting right wing talking points as "your opinion," you actually investigated the facts surrounding them.

[kentuck]

26. We shouldn't misinterpret the post...

I do not think rumguy is talking about literally kicking somebody's teeth out - he's talking about how the Swiftboat vets kicked our ass. Not literally, but figuratively. When in Rome do as the Romans do, but I'm sure rumguy can speak for himself. :)

[PittLib]

44. Kentuck, I'm sure that you are a gem, however...

since you are the second person tonight to use the phrase "when in Rome ..." as a suggestion to stoop to the BushCo level, I'm going to have to ask you to drop that tired saying and back away slooowwwly. It is making my blood boil. The SBVT did no such thing as "kicking our ass" literally or figuratively, unless of course we are forced to rehash this crap yet over, and over, and over again.

[kentuck]

49. I'm really sorry your blood is boiling....

Perhaps it is you that needs to back away slowly....give it a short break. If you think the SBVT ads had no negative impact on our campaign, I think you are mistaken. But I will agree with you not to rehash it...

peace

[seabeyond]

21. that isnt how i have ever handled it

but go figure, i am a girl.........must be why they call em girlie men

actually i just ignore it. just cause they say it doesnt make it so. lol lol

[rumguy]

25. I was makin' a point with hyperbole

All I meant is that you have to directly and forcefully counter the charges.

[Julien Sorel]

29. Just like Bush has, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker?

In case you haven't been watching, Bush hasn't said a word about the AWOL thing. Not one word. Is that your idea of teeth throat kicking? When Bush says nothing, is he being the strong, silent type? Have you brainlessly swallowed right wing spin so much you've just bought into the notion that Bush is out kicking ass even when he doesn't say a word?

[rumguy]

31. The AWOL thing has yet to blow up the way the shitboat thing did

In addition, Bush's people have responded - and they did it immediately, and are still doing it, again and again, and they won't stop until they've turned the media script their way.

[Julien Sorel]

38. Really?

Which Bush people have responded?

[rumguy]

43. Bartlett is their point man on this issue

He has his talking points down pat.

[Julien Sorel]

47. His talking points have had nothing to do

with the primary contoversy: the forgery. The Republicans have had nothing to do with that. No one quotes Bartlett on the forgeries. That's a bullshit answer, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker.

To be honest, I was a little nervous going into this thread -- I was worried that I'd have my teeth -- metaphorically, of course -- unceremoniously kicked down my throat. Instead what I've seen is a simpering rehash that reinforces the Republican theme that Kerry is weak. I would have expected more from such a tough guy, but then, truly tough people wouldn't have swallowed the spin in the first place.

[rumguy]

52. He addressed the issue early on - he didn't need to push forgery

However, now the forgery issue has let the Bush campaign off the hook for the time being on this issue. I imagine he doesn't address the forgery issue because they know the documents are authentic.

But the AWOL issue has not yet reached the fever pitch the shitboat lies did within only about two days.

[Julien Sorel]

57. Had the issue been "addressed"

to the point where it would go away, the forgery nonsense never would have happened.

Again, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker, I am concerned by a pattern I see: the Bush campaign paints Kerry as soft and weak; you concur. You also seem to believe Republican talking heads, simply by saying the magic words "He got an honorable discharge," did far more than all the work the Kerry people had done discrediting the Swift Hoax.

"He got an honorable discharge" = "kicking in teeth." Campaigning for over a year with witnesses, releasing extensive military records, posting refutations on your website and releasing them to the press = what, then?

Are you beginning to, just maybe, see a problem here? Just a teeny little problem, Mr. Teeth Throat Kicker?

[rumguy]

61. Well it's an open issue whether Rove is behind the forgery allegations

Personally, I think they got lucky with this one - this was pushed by the right wing blogosphere.

But regardless the WH immediately swung into gear getting their message out there in easy to understand soundbites. They didn't wait, they didn't hesitate in pushing their line.

If the forgery issue hadn't arisen they would still be pushing their story, until the media script went their way. The window of opportunity on a story like this is early on - it's not like an on-going policy debate.

The shitboat storm became so intense, that there was about two weeks, when Kerry and his people should have been blunting that storm. They didn't, and now the cloud still lingers.

Like I've said - it was a personal attack, it required more of a personal response from Kerry. During one of his Senate bids he organzied a news conference to deal with this issue - he had all of his backers their standing behind him - and they all told their side of the story. Something like that would have been nice. And then you follow up an event like that with having your people go on every single show they can get on to spread the message. For about two or three days the news cycle would have been all about Kerry's response to the specific charges.

The window of opportunity closes either way - you have to use it while it exists. Like I said, this isn't an ongoing policy debate - you have to get your message out quick.

[Julien Sorel]

63. Their "message"

was one thing: he got an honorable discharge. You seem to think this is an example of superior Republican campaigning. So in what way is this superior to Kerry, who had been campaigning for a year with first hand witnesses, who almost immediately posted information that demonstrated the Swift Hoax was a hoax, who had his military records on his website for a year?

"He got an honorable discharge?" That's "swinging into gear?"

Since you are simply repeating yourself, going forward I'm going to do the same, Mr, Teeth Throat Kicker. Until you explain how "He got an honorable discharge" is a better job of message management than all Kerry did, then I will be cut and pasting my response.

And no, the fact that "the shit still lingers" does not, as I already pointed out, prove that Kerry screwed up. It's an example of ex post thinking that is one of the long line of fallacies in this whole affair.

People still believe that Carter cut defense spending. He actually increased it by quite a bit, and he's been pointing this fact out for decades, but he couldn't have really increased it, because "the shit still lingers" that Carter was soft on defense. The "shit still lingers" that Bush is honest. Hey, he must really be fucking honest, then. There is some lingering shit here, but it emanates from poor reasoning ability.

[Leilani]

45. Maybe you have not noticed,

but the entire Republican convention was geared to kicking Kerrys teeth down his throat.

And since the convention,during every speech that Bush & Cheney give,
they RIDICULE Kerry. The downright LAUGH at him. And the audience laughs along & cheers.

If you think that is not having an impact, I beg to disagree.

And I thought the very, very worst thing for Kerry was the Swiftboat crap, followed by the convention, & people are waiting for a response. What do they get? Two photo ops at Nantucket, one wind surfing, & one boating with Teresa, & Kerry smiling & waving.
To me, that was devestating.

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

33. As I remember it, as soon as Kerry spoke about it

that's when it appeared on the major print and network media.

I think there was a timing call here, and maybe Kerry didn't respond soon enough, but it wasn't clear at all just when he should respond.

When Kerry responded, many people became aware of the controversy for the first time.

When Kerry wasn't responding, it was on the net and the right wing media, and then there were the Swift Boat Liar ads.

Kerry's team had to determine the exact time when the cost of not responding was greater than the cost of responding.

So no, I don't think Kerry should "directly and forcefully" counter any and all charges that any doofus and his aunt make.

[rumguy]

34. He responded to it that once I remember it well

It was a general response - the details needed to be filled in later - by either Kerry or his people - I don't think that happened.

[ItsThePeopleStupid]

48. I think you're right but

as I remember it, WaPo came out right away with the story about the other swift boat commander who received a bronze star whose commendation said he was under fire despite his claim that there was none. Then the NYT (not to be outdone) the next day or so, came out with a major piece summarizing the claims and debunking most of them.

If the Kerry campaign had made a big deal on day one that wouldn't have happened but it still would have been news.

OK, I'm making two points. If Kerry spoke too soon, 1) too much publicity re Swift Boat Liars, and 2) the sometimes responsible media would not have been ready.

[swag]

50. I was thinking that maybe instead of tracking them down and

beating them to a bloody pulp or kicking their fucking teeth right in, a better tactic for the overall strategy would be to literally rip their fucking heads off and then shit right down their fucking throats.

But then again I have never worked on a campaign.

[seabeyond]

53. bah ha ha ha ha lol lol lol

not thinking this is going to get you on any campaign soon either

[Leilani]

66. That is the best suggestion on this board!!

LOL!!!

[Nordic]

55. I'm with you. It's war, and in war you HAVE to stoop to the level of the

enemy.

Otherwise you get killed.

So many Dems have still NOT figured out that the right-wing declared war on us YEARS ago. These Dems still think it's just "politics". It's not. It's war.

They want to destroy us.

[rumguy]

59. I don't really see it as stooping to their level

I see it as self-defense.

On the other issues - like the economy, health care, etc - we should take the high road because these are policy issues where the facts are with us.

But sleazy, personal attacks require a forceful aggresive response, an immediate response. Maybe not every personal attack requires this - for instance, Drudge's report that Kerry had an affair didn't require such a response. But the shitboaters got such extensive coverage, so quickly, a response was required.

[T Town Jake]

62. Doomed! Doomed we are, I tell you!....

...Yaaaaawwwwnnnn...<snicker>...

Please peddle it elsewhere, Rummy. The real campaign has yet to begin in earnest - and most of us are quite tired of hearing this defeatist piffle...

[DemBones DemBones]

65. The media is the enemy.

Well, one of the enemies. They talk and talk and talk about the smearvets' lies and what Kerry has done and what Kerry should have done. They say he looks weak. It's the same shit they did to Al Gore four years ago. And the pretzel prince is getting a free pass, as he did four years ago.


Remember the charges that Gore never worked on his father's farm? That he was just a spoiled rich kid who grew up in a hotel in Washington? That his military service was "nothing", despite the fact that he was in the real Army and served in Viet Nam, where you could get killed even if you were, as Gore was, "just" an Army photographer. You think Senator Al Gore, Sr. couldn't have gotten young Al a safe spot in the Tennessee National Guard? Yet Al served. John Kerry served. Dubya hid out in the TANG, but the media portray him as Mr. Tough on Terror.

Let's see if our journalistic elite can tackle the recent revelations about Bush* and TANG on the Sunday talk shows. Will they talk and talk and talk about how these revelations will hurt Bush*?

I'm not holding my breath.