I see a lot of people arguing that having Warren in the Inauguration helps win over Evangelicals...

[Solon]

Well, let's assume for a minute that it will actually do so. How long will these Evangelicals support Obama if he openly supports the repeal of DOMA(Campaign pledge), or the repeal of DADT(another Campaign pledge), or advocate for the passage of ENDA(yet another Campaign pledge). What do you think these Evangelicals will do, stick with him? Please, these people place social issues front and center, and assuming Obama gets a "Warren bump" it will be strictly short term, if it happens at all.

[liberal N proud]

1. Maybe not...

Pro-Lifers Rip Rick Warren on Obama Invocation

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/504326.aspx

[Blarch]

2. Obama received more evangelical votes than Kerry.

His plan is already working, yet you keep shitting all over it.

[Solon]

3. Almost a third of Evangelicals are Democrats, and don't place social issues...

front and center like the other 2/3rds. Obama already reached for the ones who already voted for him, and people like Warren don't speak for them.

[Blarch]

14. What a fucked up view.

You actually believe that Obama DID pull some evangelicals from the pubs before the election....but it would be impossible for him to pull anymore while he is president.

WTF ?

Knock it off already, you look silly.

[Solon]

20. The ones he pulled away were all the ones he could pull away...

do you honestly think that Obama is going to "convert" that's your word, the Conservative evangelicals into supporting Gay equality and Choice? Obama isn't a magician, he cannot wave a wand and make these people believe everything he stands for. You place far too much value on both Warren and the power of persuasion.

[Blarch]

23. Like I said, your view is wack.

He pulled some before the election....but it is impossible for him to pull more over the next 4 years ?

What an absurd thought.

We start by making these people democrats, then we move forward from there. Understand ?

[Solon]

34. It really depends on them, not him, that's the point...

If they have a sudden awakening, its not going to be instigated by Obama or Warren, or any one person. What I'm trying to say is that they are going to have to come to the Democrats on their own, tricking them into it could backfire, and we don't want that.

[cboy4]

32. You may be right "dog" gone it.

:sarcasm:

[LynneSin]

4. Warren is kinda like the Joe Lieberman of fundies

He doesn't really fit into either side.

I once commented that 'there could have been worse choices than Warren' but it wasn't well clarified so perhaps I'll do it here. Warren does not live up to or liked by the right-wingers & uber fundies because Warren actually has done some good for this earth unlike the Dobsons, Robertsons, Falwells, Haggards and others like their ilk. I'm not defending Warren just pointing out that the people that like those others that I listed tend to not like Warren.

[Solon]

7. So, in other words, he alienates everybody...

is that it? Who exactly would he appeal too? Not the left, that much is obvious, the right doesn't seem to like him either, and because of the blowup of this controversy, I think even the middle will be appalled(once they are aware) at some of his words and actions regarding women, choice, and even gays.

[LynneSin]

13. Honestly - I have no clue

But he and even Lieberman have some appeal out there - people who don't frequent Free Republic or DU or even the internets in general. I know family members that have read his book and thought it was a great book and they are the most politically uninvolved people you'll meet and none of them have any issues with gay rights. It doesn't make sense, I'm not defending Warren - I'm just saying that the guy has a strange appeal out there that I can't figure out. I read some of his book (I was visiting family and couldn't sleep - they had the book in a pile of papers & magazines) and personally found it boring and tripe after about 2 pages.

[Solon]

16. Frankly, I had to research who this guy was, I forgot he hosted the presidential forum...

and I'm still completely puzzled as to his position as "America's most popular pastor" or whatever the fuck he's supposed to be. I only heard about him on DU and the Internet, and its not like I'm cloistered in a bubble either. I could say my area is secular, but no, that's not it, there's a church on every corner, and this county voted for Bush and McCain in the 60+ percentile.

[LynneSin]

25. I think the thing is we tend to forget there is a world outside of the internets

and that's where you'll find most of his appeal. People who go to church but not necessarily overly religious or have access to the internet but barely use it beyond email. I've met people like that - people like my parents who still don't quite understand homosexuality (mind you we all come from some very rural parts of Pennsylvania) but can't see why people in love should be denied their rights to marry.

[Solon]

27. Like I said, I haven't heard from him their either...

I worked retail for most of this year(laid off right now) and I've talked to probably hundreds of people in my area about politics, religion, and many other issues. Mostly I just let them rant if I disagreed with them, not nice to get in political debates with customers, after all, or I agreed with them when they say something I agree with.

Yet I never heard of this pastor. Of course, in my family, we either don't talk about politics, or we simply just agree, my Mom is a HUGE civil rights supporter, can't understand her own Church's stand on Gay Marriage or Choice(She's Catholic, but refuses to set foot in a church or tithe a dime in 20+ years), and don't get her started on the Pope, oh my you would never believe the words coming out of her mouth! :)

As far as the rest of my family, Dad's another lapsed Catholic, and my Sister is...I think Pagan, not sure actually, her husband is a staunch atheist though.

[54anickel]

21. Warren is not highly thought of by many mainline denomination leaders either. The laity seem to

love his Purpose Driven ideology though. People eat that shit up - "It's all about me". Wonderful outlook for a toddler, beyond that - not so much.

edit for lack of proof-reading :hangover:

[LynneSin]

26. Exactly

As I replied to another person - people who go to church but aren't overly religious. They have the internet but don't use it beyond email. And they vote but probably not the most politically astute people out there other than doing their civic duty of voting every couple of years. THAT is the Warren audience and oddly enough a very large segment of our population. These are the people that bought his book by the truckloads.

[Solon]

33. And when they can't avoid knowing what he thinks of choice, or of gay people...

when they hear quotes equating pro-choice people with the perpetrators of the holocaust, or gay marriage as being equivalent to incest and pedophilia. Stuff that's going to come out because of this controversy, are they going to follow him then?

My biggest fear would be yes, because that would indicate they are completely lost, but if they are simply low information voters, hopefully they aren't idiots as well.

[LynneSin]

39. I don't know if these people are completely lost - I just think they don't know

They read his book that has good tips for good living but I don't know if the folks that read his books are that well versed in politics.

It's like a Thomas Kinkade painting - sure it's pretty and people like his style of art but do these people really know art when they see it or have any clue what kind of opinions that Thomas Kinkade has?

[Solon]

40. That's actually my point, they support him out of ignorance...

Look, assuming Obama doesn't drop this guy from the Inauguration anytime soon, if at all, Warren is going to be a significant part of the news cycle on all major networks for at least the next month. That means every single statement he's made, in print and on video/audio, is going to be played, analyzed, reanalyzed, reported on, etc. By that point, if what you say is true, these people that used to read his books, may decide he's not really such a good guy after all, and decide to abandon him entirely. By that point, Obama wouldn't have a reason to have him in his inauguration anymore, and may alienate even the low information voters as well.

[LynneSin]

41. And I hate to say it - those poeple of ignorance are the ones we need on our side

I'll admit it - my parents and most of my family love that tripe of a book that Warren put out. I read some of it, couldn't stomach it past 2-3 pages. And I know my parents - they're old school and from rural Pennsylvania so homosexuality never made sense to them, they were raised that way. But neither of them feel that we should deny the rights for 2 people in love who wish to marry to have the same rights they have. I love my mother but she has never seen politics as anything more than doing her civic duty every couple of years to vote (she gets really upset when I talk politics - doesn't understand why I follow it). When I went to my first same-sex couple wedding (in New Jersey) my mother had alot of questions about "Well what do they wear" and "what do they call each" - typical questions that someone who doesn't know much might ask - but the last thing she said is "Well I think it's wonderful they can do this and I'll pray they have a long and happy marriage". My mother is just a well meaning woman who happens to read tripe books about how to have purpose in her life.

I hate to say it - that's the people that Obama could be trying to appeal to with this whole Warren mess. It's still just as painful because I know how upsetting this is to the GLBT community. Personally I'm just sad all around.

[Solon]

43. And how do you think she's react when she hears that Warren thinks that marriage she praised...

is the same as incest and pedophilia? Will she think more highly of him, or will he be diminished in her eyes? Because unless she refuses to watch TV or radio, she is definitely going to be hearing about it, even if in snippets.

[LynneSin]

44. Honestly - my mother avoids the news anymore like the plague outside of the local

If I told her Rick Warren she wouldn't have a clue what I'm talking about. If I tell her "Purpose Driven Life" she knows the book.

I'm not calling my mother stupid, she just has different values when it comes to what holds her interests and what doesn't. There's alot of people out there like that. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be counted - it's just weird.

What's funny is my mother has subscriptions to like 6 different newspapers and all of them she gets so she can read about the local happenings; she normally skips the national and world news.

Honestly, if you ask me any more questions - I just don't have answers, I don't think any of us does.

[Solon]

47. Wait, she doesn't even know who the hell wrote the book?

In that case, what does it matter if Obama has the guy up there during an Invocation during the Inauguration? Hell, the typical Evangelical as you described through your mother, wouldn't even know who he is!

I don't mean to insult your mother, but its really hard to believe she doesn't even know who wrote that book.

[LynneSin]

48. Not one of the priorities in my mothers life to remember the name of book authors

but she can tell you about any hot stories from her hometown where she hasn't lived for the last 40+ years.

And my mother is not a good example of whom this group is that reads the book. But for the ones I've met who happen to own a copy or claim to read it - none of them come across as bit political followers other than voting faithfully at every election.

[Solon]

50. So, in your opinion, what affect will Warren being involved in Obama's Inauguration have?

Would they even watch it? From what you described, they have total apathy for everything outside of their bubble. From that description, it seems this entire flap will not affect them, one way or the other, nor how or who they vote for.

[LynneSin]

55. No she'll watch the inauguration. She likes watching the parades and stuff

The biggest concern is what Warren says when he does the invocation. If he does the standard "I bless you and your tenure as president blah blah blah" then it will have little impact. If Warren uses the 2 minutes he has been given as a soapbox to promote his homophobic stance then yeah, that could be an issue.

I will say this - I'm sure they when Warren is announced they'll mention that he's the "Best-Selling Author of Purpose Driven Life" just to get the attention of this 'middle-of-the-road' crowd.

[54anickel]

56. Yes, he seems to appeal to the "un-churched" and the "wind-up the deity on Sunday" types. They

probably actually out-number the more vocal fundie types. They tend to be the can't remember when/seldom attend church "seekers" (the type Warren is attempting to lure) or the folks that now make up the majority in the mainstream congregations for whom church equates to a warm and fuzzy break from an otherwise hectic, treadmill, sometimes self-absorbed existence. Obviously a book claiming to offer a quick excursion to find true meaning and purpose would tend to appeal. Warren definitely has his own "unique" theology.

[LynneSin]

57. Rick Warren is the Thomas Kinkade of the literary world

Gives you the warm fuzzies about something but details beyond that you really don't know. If Obama is trying to appeal to anyone it's more of these people than the fundies, who tend to scoff at Rick Warren

[crappyjazz]

5. I believe those campaign pledges went out the window

Fool me once ...

[Blarch]

6. Oh...

and while you are at it, take your 'my way or the high way' republican attitude and take a nap.

I voted for change ..and if Obama rejected and isolated these people, it wouldn't be change.

[Solon]

8. Like I said, do you respond with anything but snark? n/t

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pale Blue Dot]

11. ...

:rofl:

I guess that's a "no". :rofl:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. I agree. If Obama is rejecting change, he will NOT get my vote, money or help in 2012

Nor my family's, nor my friends'.

[Gman]

9. I don't think Warren wins over evangelicals

I think it's a good move to neutralize them, possibly make them less enthusiastic about opposing Obama. Ultimately, they don't turn out as strongly in 10 and 12. The fundies were the biggest threat to Obama's election. If they stay away from the polls it makes it a lot easier.

[Solon]

12. Why would they be less enthusiastic? Obama is still...

supposedly, going to be just as pro-gay rights, pro-choice, and pro-women as he promised in his campaign. I would imagine that would be enough to bring their enthusiasm back, to fight against him.

[Gman]

15. One would think so

But it's the only explanation I can come up with. That this is a move to neutralize them.

[Solon]

18. Warren isn't going to make their issues with Obama go away...

both the made up issues(Obama is Muslim/Not American) and the issues they don't agree with him on, such as gay rights and choice.

[terrya]

17. THANK YOU. I'll gladly recommend your post.

Because it's exactly what I'm thinking.

Obama's new "friends" will turn on him with a vengenance when he tries to push any of what you mentioned...ENDA, repeal of DADT and DOMA. The Matthew Shepard Act.

[WillParkinson]

29. Not when, Terrya....

IF.

If Mr. Obama is truly courting this group will he do anything to risk it?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. It will not help Obama get the favor of evangelicals, but it will lose me in the next election.....

...and I am one of those tireless workers who took off 10 full vacation days to campaign door to door. He will lose my friends, and my family as well.

[HamdenRice]

22. Who cares? As long as he gets 2 years

This is politics. As long as he insulates his administration from them for long enough to get universal health care and the stimulus passed (and maybe the nationalization of a bank or two), then the gesture will have accomplished its purpose.

Then he can move on to "social issues," and lose the evangelicals.

Remember Clinton being tagged with "gays in the military" as his first major initiative and being eviscerated by the evangelicals, social conservatives and military/ex-military constituencies?

Well, get used to the fact that those "social issues" will not be chronologically first on the agenda.

Get used to it. Vent. Get your frustrations out on DU. But don't expect there to be any different outcome.

Obama has learned from the Clintons. Take that to the bank.

[alwysdrunk]

28. They are willing to compromise on social issues

They showed that by voting for Obama at a higher percentage than Kerry or Gore. Most of them are as single issue minded on abortion as some DUers are on gay rights. They put that aside and saw all of the issues as a whole and decided that Obama will offer better solutions than McCain.

What this Warren thing will do is discredit all of the hateful Obama is a Muslim\terrorist\anti-Christ bullshit that was going on during the election. For the rest of the term no one will be able to say that. That will "allow" many of these evangelicals to support their president, even when they disagree. When DADT comes up, if Obama has done a good job on other issues, many people will look the over way even if they don't agree.

[WillParkinson]

30. Ah....so throw the gays under the bus....

BEFORE you rescue them.

[Solon]

31. That seems to be a rather unrealistically optimistic viewpoint...

A lot of these people are NOT rational thinkers, they aren't interested in looking at Obama through anything but jaded eyes. The whole Obama is a Muslim\terrorist\anti-Christ bullshit is not going to go away overnight. It wouldn't surprise me if most of these people will hound Obama until the end of his Presidency, just like with Clinton. I simply don't see how Warren will change that.

[alwysdrunk]

35. It's starting to go away already

Even on FreeRepublic they stopped pushing the Muslim and terrorist stuff and switched to the birth certificate. It will be gradual, but that type of thinking will be relegated to the fringe of the fringe. It will be laughed at if it comes up in 2012.

[Solon]

36. Yes, but again, Warren has little to do with it...

if he has anything to do with it at all, which I strongly doubt. So again, I ask, why put him in the Inauguration?

[alwysdrunk]

37. You really can't see the signifigance?

You really can't see the significance of a man that these people see as their spiritual leader, putting his arm around a man that they once thought was a evil Muslim terrorist? You really think it will have no effect on their thinking?

[Solon]

38. Well, I know for some of them, Warren is a traitor, so that's a sizable percentage of his...

followers that aren't his followers anymore. As far as the rest, like I said, it may lead to a "Warren bump" but it will last until the first Obama speech that is Pro-Choice, Pro-Gay, or Pro-Women, then that support goes bye bye.

[Hepburn]

42. Why in the hell do we want to or need to win over those assholes?

They are the enemy...and I should want them to agree with our views?

Ummmmmmmm....no.

[Political Tiger]

45. I don't think it will win over many evangelicals

but I wonder, what if "the uniter" GW Bush had invited a liberal Catholic or even a Jew to deliver the invocation for him, an evangelical Christian? I might have thought better of him than I did when he had Franklin Graham, another evangelical Christian, give such a noninclusive prayer.

Maybe that's the whole point of having Rick Warren, not to piss off people but an attempt to heal the country?

[Solon]

53. but he will piss off these people, regardless of what he does...

That's the whole point, unless he does a 180 on all major social issues, which would make him worse than McCain.

[ddeclue]

46. Warren can't "win over" evangelicals.. they are dogmatic.

All he can do is lose his own credibility.

Warren is window dressing for Obama's inauguration - the same way minorities are at a GOP Presidential convention.

[pecwae]

49. If anyone knows any Evangelicals

they'll also know this will see this as a 'win' for them, not Obama.

[FloridaGrl]

51. Warren isn't winning over evangelicals

It's Obama's actions that are winning over evangelicals. Warren is just a part of it. It's his showing of love for everyone. I hope he continues like this, he is a man like no other. He holds no grudge. Many here and around will not see good in this but I think this is what is called unity. You have to lead by example. If we are calling for love and equality we have to be willing to give it as well ( You treat others the way you want to be treated). It will trickle down. The last president focused on exclusion and division. President Obama will try to unite the country. It's those actions that will help us move forward from our hatred of people who don't share our beliefs.

[Solon]

52. But many of these people aren't interested in "Love and Equality"....

and he expects to reach out to them? Look, I like the sentiment you are displaying, but Obama's coalition CANNOT by definition include both homophobes that want to strip or deny GLBT people their civil rights and GLBT people themselves.

[FloridaGrl]

54. I am a christian like Obama

so I know what I am taking about. He's not going to win over everybody but Christianity by definition is based on love for everyone. Our "Christian" president before led by division. Obama never said he would change any of his views on this issue. Do you think the division in this country will do anything to help or hurt? How are we going to change the division by more division? Think about it. Plant and seed of love and give it time to grow. It's worth trying.

Edit to add: Obama himself had reason to shun this man after what he did to him at the forum. He is speaking to our conscience. It's hard to hate those who show us love.

[Solon]

58. Obama can show all the love he wants, I've seen little evidence he can reach them...

in any significant way. Not the outright bigots who equate homosexuality with pedophilia, or bestiality, etc. These people are so full of hate, they can't see love, even if Cupid himself struck them with an arrow, it would bounce off their armor of hate.

Oh and I really resent your implication that, since you are a Christian, you are apparently especially qualified to talk about love. And you want to talk about being divisive? :eyes:

[FloridaGrl]

59. We all need to get over the hate

and stop this my group against your group mentality. You read more into my post than what I wrote because you have something over your eyes. What I was trying to say is that I know many Christians can be reached when they see love being shown. I said my piece. Peace.