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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:39 AM
Original message
Someone needs to say it.
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 09:06 AM by BillyBunter
Looking at the picture of the Red Crescent ambulance, bombed today by American jets in Fallujah as it carried wounded civilians to the hospital, and it is obvious that "Iraqi Freedom" is a farce. Look at the numbers of them dying every day. How many tens of thousands of Iraqis have died since we invaded? How many tens of thousands more will die? What the White House calls an "insurgency" is a low-level civil war, one that is in danger at any moment of becoming much more intense.

The United States has now lost over 1,000 soldiers, spent hundreds of billions of dollars, alienated almost every ally, quintupled the recruitment of Al-qaeda -- and there's no end to the occupation in sight.

North Korea is on the brink of testing nuclear weapons, and we can do nothing because our military is bogged down in Iraq. Iran is possibly in the process of developing nuclear weapons, but the problems the U.S. has encountered in its "cakewalk" invasion of Iraq has taken the threat of military action off the table with Iran -- a nation four times the size of Iraq, with three times the population can see it has little to fear from a U.S. that has its hands full elsewhere.

What have we gotten out of the invasion? No WMDs. Iraq was not connected to terrorism. Iraq presented no threat to the United States.

George Bush is going around the country saying, "If it was up to John Kerry, Saddam Hussein would still be in power," as if that were a terrible insult to Kerry. I do not see any benefits to the Iraqi people, and certainly not to the United States, from removing Saddam from power, besides the entertainment value some people got from watching the war unfold in their living rooms. Why is this insulting to Kerry?

Who cares about Saddam? What American would have cared about Saddam, had George Bush not put a spotlight on him, and intoned over and over again that he was tied to Al-qaeda, that he was developing nuclear weapons, that he had enough chemical weapons to wipe everyone out, and on and on and on until the people were scared to the point where they threw up their hands and said, "Go ahead George, have your invasion."


Was removing Saddam worth it to the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis? Was it worth it to those who are still there, and who live in constant fear of a full-scale civil war breaking out, who are afraid of car bombs and suicide bombs and American bombs and "improvised explosive devices" -- home made bombs?

Was removing Saddam worth it to the 1000 Americans who gave their lives there, to the untold more who will in the future? Was it worth it to their families and loved ones? Was removing Saddam worth hundreds of billions of dollars, money that could have gone to medical research and schools and roads, or to paying down debt or to, yes, tax cuts?

John Kerry can't say this. No politician can, without immediately being laughed at and attacked as "soft on terror," and ridiculed as a weakling. But I can. So can you.

George Bush screwed up in Iraq. Badly. If letting Saddam's sad little dictatorship survive would have kept the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis alive, then Saddam should have stayed. If letting Saddam's weapons of mass destructionless dictatorship survive meant 1000 American kids would still be alive, then Saddam should have stayed. If letting Saddam's dictatorship, which had nothing to do with terrorism in the U.S., would mean the national debt would not be spiraling out of control, then Saddam should have stayed.

John Kerry might not be able to say that. But someone has to. Before too much longer, we're all going to be saying it; the only questions are, how much longer, how much more money will we spend, how many more people will have to die.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Bush is weakening America
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 08:48 AM by mmonk
Everybody AND the politicians could say that.
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Cartooner Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. GARRISON KEILLOR'S NEW BOOK: HOMEGROWN DEMOCRAT
http://tinyurl.com/6l3g6

YOU SHOULD SEND THIS TO EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK!!!

<snip>
The party of Lincoln and Liberty was transmogrified into the party of hairy-backed swamp developers and corporate shills, faith-based economists, fundamentalist bullies with Bibles, Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys, shrieking midgets of AM radio, tax cheats, nihilists in golf pants, brownshirts in pinstripes, sweatshop tycoons, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks, Lamborghini libertarians, people who believe Neil Armstrong's moonwalk was filmed in Roswell, New Mexico, little honkers out to diminish the rest of us, Newt's evil spawn and their Etch-A-Sketch president, a dull and rigid man suspicious of the free flow of information and of secular
institutions, whose philosophy is a jumble of badly sutured body parts trying to walk. Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we're deaf, dumb and dangerous.

<snip>
There is a stink drifting through this election year. It isn't the Florida recount or the Supreme Court decision. No, it's 9/11 that we keep coming back to. It wasn't the "end of innocence," or a turning point in our history, or a cosmic occurrence, it was an event, a lapse of security. And patriotism shouldn't prevent people from asking hard questions of the man who was purportedly in charge of national security at the time.
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Cartooner Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I sent this to everyone in my ADDRESS BOOK... YOU SHOULD TOO
Edited on Tue Sep-14-04 06:55 AM by Cartooner
This is the most comprehensive castigation of current REPULSICANS in general ... and Emperor George Dubious Botch, in particular.

I RECOMMEND YOU D'LOAD THIS AND SEND IT TO EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDY BOOK TOO.... WE CAN USE ALL THE HELP WE CAN GET NOW.
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boxster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. So true.
Excellent post, BB.

It is quite obvious that Saddam had very little to do with anything, including the Bush administration's plans for what is effectively world domination. Saddam was never their point. He was merely an excuse.

Bush has killed tens of thousands of people under the guise of "liberation" and with the claims that God told him to, and nearly half of our country is too ignorant, stupid, or lazy to see how he is doing many of the same things that he has accused Saddam of doing.

It saddens me when I think about what those hundreds of billions of dollars could have done if applied to our education system, our health care system, social security, etc.
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. General Conway has said it in the Washinton Post ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16309-2004Sep12.html

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, September 13, 2004; Page A17

FALLUJAH, Iraq, Sept. 12 -- The outgoing U.S. Marine Corps general in charge of western Iraq said Sunday he opposed a Marine assault on militants in the volatile city of Fallujah in April and the subsequent decision to withdraw from the city and turn over control to a security force of former Iraqi soldiers.
...
He echoed an argument made by many Iraqi politicians and American analysts -- that the U.S. attack further radicalized a restive city, leading many residents to support the insurgents. "When we were told to attack Fallujah, I think we certainly increased the level of animosity that existed," Conway said.

He would not say where the order to attack originated, only that he received an order from his superior at the time, Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the overall commander of U.S. forces in Iraq. Some senior U.S. officials in Iraq have said the command originated in the White House.

"We follow our orders," Conway said. "We had our say, and we understood the rationale, and we saluted smartly, and we went about the attack."

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16309-2004Sep12.html

----------------------------------------------
This story is replicating like cancer in all the major and minor media outlets
http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&ned=ca&ie=UTF-8&q=general++conway+fallujah&scoring=d
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Unfortunately, he limits himself to Fallujah, a tactical gripe.
It's certainly a step in the right direction. But until it is possible for Americans, and American politicians, to honestly discuss the Iraqi invasion itself, and the strategy behind it, there will be more Fallujahs. That's the nature of "insurgencies."
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. True -- but FACT/ACTUALS outweigh rhetoric for the average person
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Wow, There Really ARE A Lot Of Major Citings For This Story
People need to know this.
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Sick_of_Rethuggery Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. There *is* a succinct response...
to the *'s inanity "if it were up to Kerry..." that politicians including Kerry can and should make:

"It *was* up to Bush, and Iran and North Korea *are* thumbing their noses at us. Bush removed a paper tiger and left those who can do real damage to our security in power".
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Like Madeline Albright said -
We've shown that we attack countries that don't have nuclear capabilities and don't attack those who do.




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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. hey sick - that was right on. welcome to du
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LisaLynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. So true and well put
It makes me sick when those who continue to insist that the war was neccessary use the Saddam was a Bad Guy arguement. Yeah, nobody argues that he was Santa Claus. And call me cynical, but I just don't believe that the people making that arguement really care all that much about the Iraqis.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. Agreed on all points, should be said outside DU
I hope you are writing LTTE, because you're right, Kerry can't say it but we can.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. Roadmap Out of Iraq


http://www.RoadmapOutofIraq.org/

The Roadmap - Six Signposts to Iraqi Sovereignty and Ending the Occupation

Secure UN Security Council Resolutions that provide for:

1. A new Security Council mandate that immediately places all foreign troops in Iraq within a defined UN peacekeeping mission. (International Cooperation)

2. Rotation of troop commitments to replace US troops by a specified date (end of 2004). (International Cooperation)

3. UN oversight of free elections. Power of elected government to eject foreign troops. (Human Rights and Rule of Law)

4. Reconstruction budgets under the control of Iraqis. (Economic Justice)

5. Power of elected government to renegotiate and dissolve any contracts brokered by the occupying power or its appointees. (Economic Justice)

6. Commits the US, UK and its “coalition of the willing” to provide long-term financial support for full Iraqi reconstruction. (International Cooperation and Rule of Law)

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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. Talking point: "Yes, Saddam is gone, but look at how many are stepping up
to fill his shoes."
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. .
:kick:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. Kerry needs to say it. That is the problem some have with him.
He doesn't.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. He can't.
Leadership is a strange thing. You think it's about getting people to do things, sometimes forcing people to do things, and occasionally it is. But it's a two way street: you can't force people to go in a direction they don't want to go, not in a democracy you can't.

The ground has to be laid first. Kerry cannot, in the less than two months left in the election, singlehandedly turn the tide of public opinion. If he starts speaking out on this, it could easily cost him the election. Sure, in six months, a year, two years, people will likely be agreeing with him, but Kerry doesn't have that much time, and neither do we. Throwing the election to make a point is an example of how not to take the "high road."

Someone else has to start talking, persuasively, about the status of Iraq. Not from an anti-war perspective, which clutters the picture with ideology, but from a simple cost-benefit perspective: This war makes no sense, and both we and the Iraqis are worse off as a result of it. Once people start thinking about it, the keg will be full of powder, and then a John Kerry, or whomever else, can come along and light the fuse.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
16. Don't know if you saw my post yesterday
but that was the gist of my conversation with a young marine about the war...at the end of our conversation, he was no longer voting for Bush.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yep, I read it.
There aren't enough people like you out there, unfortunately.

Mark Shields said something similar in part of his column today, I see. Not enough people like him, either.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I love that guy..he can use rationale and humor to make his point
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 02:14 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
It's up to all of us to get people questioning. This is the result of increasing prison spending versus decreasing education spending...perhaps we at DU should write a HISTORY OF THE RIGHT WING SMEAR MACHINE FOR DUMMIES.

BTW...please don't request anymore tombstones down in ATA...even if you and I are at lagerheads at times in debates...you usually make some very good points....don't let it get to ya ;-)
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think Howard Stern said it best
It was just a joke - but it hits on the depth of *'s total, complete, and utter incompetence - and about how Iraq is turning out to be nothin' but a can of worms.

"Put President Bush in jail, and put Saddam back in power."

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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. <sarcasm> what does this have to do with Vietnam?</sarcasm>
Yeah, this should be the real issue of this election. But the Corporate media will not allow that. Pretty sickening. Maybe Kerry will bring this all up during the debates. He should.

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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. "If John Kerry had his way,
a thousand of our soldiers would still be alive, 7,000 more would not be wounded, we wouldn't be piling debt on our grandchildren, and Saddam Hussein would be contained by an effective inspections program. Bush has made us less safe by pursuing a foolish strategy that has quintupled al Qaeda recruitment."
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. Is there a picture of this anywhere?
?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
26. YOU ARE OUT OF THE DLC YOUNG MAN
war is good and democrats are the other war party and don't you forget it.
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