Expert Cited by CBS Says He Didn't Authenticate Papers

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18982-2004Sep13.html

Expert Cited by CBS Says He Didn't Authenticate Papers

By Michael Dobbs and Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, September 14, 2004; Page A08

The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves.

"There's no way that I, as a document expert, can authenticate them," Marcel Matley said in a telephone interview from San Francisco. The main reason, he said, is that they are "copies" that are "far removed" from the originals.

Matley's comments came amid growing evidence challenging the authenticity of the documents aired Wednesday on CBS's "60 Minutes." The program was part of an investigation asserting that Bush benefited from political favoritism in getting out of commitments to the Texas Air National Guard. On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said again that the network "believes the documents are authentic."

A detailed comparison by The Washington Post of memos obtained by CBS News with authenticated documents on Bush's National Guard service reveals dozens of inconsistencies, ranging from conflicting military terminology to different word-processing techniques.

The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.

"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.

...more...

[kentuck]

1. Michael Dobbs is this right-wing nut that helped push the SBVT story....

And we all know where Howard Kurtz is capable of coming from. i would take this Washington Post story with a grain of salt. A small grain of salt.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

30. [e-mail]

.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

31. [e-mail]

.

[w4rma]

2. Et tu WP? (nt)

[oasis]

18. When Bill O'Reilly took the WP off of his hit list I knew something was

up with that gang over there. Today on "HardBall" an african american WP writer, Colbert King distorted Kerry's position and on Iraq and began chanting the "flip-flop" mantra. I had never seen this guy or read anything he has written. Then a light went off in my head. :think:

The Washington Post fronted a black man to do a hatchet job on John Kerry.

[Norquist Nemesis]

36. Saw that...and also when Matthews asked if WP is endorsing

Kerry. The guy actually squirmed. Worst thing is, I think he is an editor.

[dennis4868]

37. That WP guy....

made me sick...he lied about Kerry's position on Iraq sayign that Kerry not only gave Bush a blank check to go into Iraq, he begged Bush to use the check. WTF? Did he not read Kerry's speech on the floor of the sanate before the vote? I hate the media more than I hate the criminals in the WH!

[Norquist Nemesis]

40. He misrepresented a lot

in that segement. It was sickening, you're right. He sounded more like an editor for the Washington Times than the WP.

[sally343434]

3. He must be on to something!

I can produce "virtually exact replicas" of my grade-school geography book's text using Microsoft Word. Therefore, I must be misinformed. The world is truly flat!

I am so ashamed!

[LiberalFighter]

38. I could produce an exact or nearly indiscernible exact copy...

but not with MS Word. Word has limitations that would prevent exact copies.

Even then it would take time and many many comparisons.

[senseandsensibility]

4. As far as I know

CBS only claimed that he verified the signature. The article implies that they made a false claim.

[Spazito]

9. Exactly!

He verified the signature was authentic when compared to other documents that have been authenticated. That is what CBS reported, they have other experts dealing with other aspects of the memos.

[alarcojon]

14. Link

A CBS official who spoke on condition of anonymity said that the network had two other document experts, who CBS did not identify, examine the documents, which were copies of the originals.

The experts studied the type font or style, spacing and other variables and deemed the memos legitimate, said the official.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guard11sep11,1,6728631.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

Registration site

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. well here is what the Times quoted him as saying

"But in an interview with The Times, the analyst said he had only judged a May 4, 1972, memo — in which Killian ordered Bush to take his physical — to be authentic.

He said he did not form a judgment on the three other disputed memos because they only included Killian's initials and he did not have validated samples of the officer's initials to use for comparison.

A CBS official who spoke on condition of anonymity said that the network had two other document experts, who CBS did not identify, examine the documents, which were copies of the originals.

The experts studied the type font or style, spacing and other variables and deemed the memos legitimate, said the official

[Proud2BAmurkin]

27. That's right. CBS said he didn't verify them, only the signature

Deceitful idiots.

[Chomskyite]

5. More of the same from Dobbs and Kurtz

And no scientist of any salt would say any artifact is definitely authentic. They'd only deal in supporting evidence and any opinion would be qualified. Neither Dobbs nor Kurtz is smart enough to realize this, however.

[kentuck]

6. They twisted the guys story like a Bush pretzel....

I saw him on TV and he never said at anytime that the documents were "authentic". He said the signatures on all the documents looked "authentic". Who thought he said anything differently??? Not I...

[BurtWorm]

10. And Dobbs and Kurtz are treating this like some kind of scoop!

And it is a scoop, seeing as they made up the charge they're supposedly refuting! :eyes:

[grasswire]

11. exactly what they did with the other guy

another dodge!

Man, they're good at planting oblique disinformation.

[Clinton Crusader]

7. Michael Dobbs is CONSTANTLY

on MSRNC pushing his 'fake' theory. He's been on every day for at least 5 days.
:kick:

[MissB]

8. IIRC, CBS used document expertS and handwriting expertS. (nt)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. Look, if they're real, Bush is toast

If they're fake, Rove planted them.
There is no other explanation. :)

[goclark]

16. I have a question

I believe that Rove would hang his own mother.
But, I still am not sure why he would want to put out all of these days of trying to bat this stuff down.

He owns the media so why would he jump on a band wagon if he didn't have to do it?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

23. I (for one) believe they are real

...Comparing the CBS memos with a replication produced on Microsoft Word, he noticed a slight variation in the boldness of the letters, as there is on many typewritten documents. "It doesn't look like you can do this very easily," he said. "If you use something like Photoshop you could come close to faking it, but why not just go out and buy a Selectric for $75?"

Bill Glennon, a technology consultant and I.B.M. typewriter specialist who had posted his thoughts on the memos on a blog and was quoted over the weekend in publications including The New York Times, said CBS called him Monday morning. The producer asked him to come in and look at the memorandums and say whether he thought that an I.B.M. typewriter could have produced the documents. He said he was initially leery of talking. "Because quite honestly there's some people out there, they're scary," he said. "You don't agree with them, you offer opinions that don't jibe with theirs and you get a target on your back."


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/politics/campaign/14guard.html?pagewanted=print&position=

[goclark]

62. Thanks Dan Rather is the best!

[girl gone mad]

13. Nearest I can tell, this guy Newcomer is a programmer..

not a forensic document examiner.

He put up a web site which can now only be reached through archiving because of server overload.

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

Does he really qualitfy as an expert on this subject? He's someone who likes to argue with Microsoft experts, from what I gather after googling his name.

[LiberalFighter]

35. Claims he is a qualified expert in computer typography...

That would be fine and dandy if it involved computers.

But guess what?? It wasn't done on a computer it was done on a non computer typewriter.

[girl gone mad]

50. I don't see how he can make that claim..

based on his bio:

Dr. Newcomer received his Ph.D. in 1975 from CMU. His thesis investigated the automation of generation of optimizing compilers using techniques from Artificial Intelligence. He became a Research Associate on the C.mmp/Hydra multiprocessor project. In 1978 he returned to compiler optimization as part of the PQCC (Production Quality Compiler-Compiler) project which investigated the full spectrum of machine-independent compiler automation. In 1981 he left CMU to become the first employee (besides the founders) of a compiler development company, Tartan Laboratories. In 1984 he left Tartan to become one of the founding scientists of the Software Engineering Institute. In 1987 he left the SEI to become an independent consultant. He returned briefly to CMU in 1990-1991 doing multimedia research at the Information Technology Center (ITC). With the exception of that year at CMU, he has been a full-time consultant since 1987.

In the early 1990s he worked with Dr. Robert Thibadeau, and is a co-inventor with Dr. Thibadeau (and others) on three U.S. Patents on distributed information technology.

He is the author of two major works on Microsoft Windows programming as well as a book on an earlier XML-like system, IDL, developed at CMU in the late 1970s and which was an outgrowth of his PQCC work.

He returns to CMU in the summer of 2001 teaching the Internet course in the e-commerce program

http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/people/faculty/jnewcomer/jmn.htm


Compilers, databases and mark-up languages don't have much to do with typography.

[Bridget Burke]

54. While he was working on his Ph.D., I was typing....

Used an IBM Executive for a couple of years, then a Selectric Composer. Spent lots of time on them. (Eventually got into standalone WP systems, then on into the wonderful world of PC's.)

I'm at least as qualified as he to judge these documents & they look OK to me. I could probably produce pretty fair duplicates in MS Word, but what would that prove?

He's definitely ahead of me in "the automation of generation of optimizing compilers". Wonder who typed up his thesis?

[LiberalFighter]

63. Desktop publisher would have more weight than his credentials

There is a difference between someone using software for desktop publishing vs. MS Word.

[girl gone mad]

15. Newcomer is also a partisan:

"I am a heterosexual, monogamous Republican. My views on gay marriage are irrelevant here. I will not tolerate anyone messing with my Constitution to further his personal political ambitions"

Go figure..

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:uug9-lKKovgJ:www.post-gazette.com/pg/04077/286816.stm+%22Joseph+M.+Newcomer%22+bush&hl=en

Edit:

Another Gem from Newcomer:

"I watched the peace march in Pittsburgh on Thursday. I had an unusual thought as I watched the proceedings. It was: "These people, too, are terrorists." That is, by the act of disrupting traffic, and, as I understand from the news reports, vandalizing automobiles, the act of assembly moved out of the domain of "peaceable" assembly and moved into the same world of motives that suicide bombers and other terrorists use. "

Unf***ingbelievable!

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:AeUhi2fk_44J:www.post-gazette.com/forum/letters/20030324edlets0324p1.asp+%22Joseph+M.+Newcomer%22+bush&hl=en

[LiberalFighter]

33. Looks like a terrorist to me

http://euro.ecom.cmu.edu/people/faculty/jnewcomer/jmn.htm

[Democat]

34. Make sure to email these quotes to the media! This is Bush ass kissing!

What the hell is wrong with the Washington Post?

[progressivebydesign]

61. Politics 101. Find an "expert" in your ranks to do your dirty work.

Happens a lot with the repugs. It's like the mob.. they have people that they can call for ANYTHING... 'does anyone know of a friendly that knows this shit?', and Newcomer's name pops up from someone rolodex file. The media are a bunch of amateurs, because they HAVE YET to look at the political agenda of the GOP so-called experts.. first it was that woman who called it a fraud (who was leading a group to get more republican women in office), now this hack. How fucking hard IS IT to do a google search as you do your article? Apparently too difficult... liberal media, indeed!

[kentuck]

17. They have more than just the documents to discredit....

they have facts and specific dates mentioned on the so-called "fake" documents. Surely they can find evidence to discredit these times and facts as presented by CBS? Surely they can find a military document showing Bush was someplace else, rather than AWOL? If not, I would prefer they just cut it loose.

[PurityOfEssence]

19. Is Johnie Cochran behind all this?

Tainted! It's all tainted!

[Blue_Roses]

20. who gives a rats ass

this is such a non story. Enough of the vietnam crap. It's not working and it's taking away from how Bush is really fucking up now.

[sundancekid]

21. deflect, deflect, deflect and thus distract, distract, distract

DEFLECT the focus of the sheeple to "form"
and thus
DISTRACT the sheeple from the "substance"
this way, we can all
LOSE TRACK of the original point

welcome to freeper s.o.p.

[oasis]

22. Washington Post has made no endorsement for president. Sly bastards.

[atre]

24. What a misleading title to that article!?!

nm

[LiberalFighter]

25. Mellon-Scaife???

School of Computer Science
Carnegie Mellon University

[rocktivity]

26. Who SAID he authenticated the documents?

He said he only authenticated the SIGNATURES, and that's what the CBS video shows. They're trying to make it sound like he actually said that he's decides the docs are phony, or that he changed his mind about the signatures!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Proud2BAmurkin]

29. Michael Dobbs and Howard Kurtz said he did

or implied as much

[indie_voter]

58. Yes. Very very disingenious of the post. n/t

[geek tragedy]

28. WHAT GODDAMN LIBERAL MEDIA?

Jesus H. Christ. This is the paper that broke Watergate? What a pile of shit the Post has become.

[Onlooker]

32. I wonder how many Freepers posted doubts about the Swift Boat Vets?

Do you think as many Freepers posted doubts about the Swift Boat Vets as DUers post doubts about the Killian papers? Funny, isn't it, how willingly we give credence to those who embrace Bush.

[dennis4868]

39. Only if the WP.....

used the same energy to analyze Bush's evidence for war before the invasion.....man, those 1000+ dead soldiers might not have ever died or even gone into Iraq....so sad....fuck the WP!

[Nederland]

41. This story is unraveling

I expect a retraction any day now.

[dennis4868]

42. retraction from who?

[Nederland]

45. CBS (nt)

[Proud2BAmurkin]

47. CBS's documents are real. Have any evidence to the contrary?

Doubt it, considering there isn't any.

[Nederland]

53. Yes

If someone can refute everything here I'll be a believer. Until then, I'm a skeptic.

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

[molly]

57. Go rent "The Insider" with Russell Crowe

CBS would have never put it out there if they had 1 iota of doubt.

[BootinUp]

59. His knowledge of typewriters does not appear

to be that great. Who cares if a computer and printer couldn't create the docs in the early 70's?

[girl gone mad]

49. Look at the facts in the article above and tell me..

they are not grasping at straws.

1. The man they use to discredit the documents is an extreme RW partisan (thinks peace protestors are terrorists, like Al Qaeda), and has noe real expertise in forensic document examination. He is a computer programmer.

2. The article is written to imply that CBS wasn't forthcoming about their handwriting expert, when they clearly were.

[EST]

46. And how the F can you retract a non-story

With a non-retraction. Nuttin' here, folks...

[girl gone mad]

43. Dobbs and Kurtz will never retract.

They are far too arrogant.

[dennis4868]

44. you are so right....

no one from the right ever has to retract...I think this will play out in our favor as time goes on.....

[GOPisEvil]

55. You didn't see the CBS evening news last night?

Dan and CBS are standing by the documents.

[Must_B_Free]

48. More "Conspiracy Theories" from the right...

but they never seem to have the meat. Where's the details of the conspiracy?

[Zero Division]

51. Very interesting comments from a poster at Atrios' blog today on this:

I wonder if this woman or another typographist would be willing to go forward in the media and make the same kind of comments made here:
http://wwwhaloscan.com/comments.php?user=atrios&comment=109508940796305899#1010385
and here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.php?user=atrios&comment=109508940796305899#1010386

Some excerpts:
"<...>I'm an expert. And I don't think they are forgeries.
<...>I spent roughly 30 years in the book publishing business, most of which was on the production side dealing with type compositors and printers. I have worked with typography and printing processes from the end of the raised-metal-type era to current digital technology. I have designed and written complete type specifications for more books than I can remember.
<...>So, let's dispense with the "proportional type" theory. I've looked at the PDF files, and IMO the quality thereof is too far removed from the original (the wavy baselines are a dead giveaway) to know what the original type proportion was. And any "kerning" one might see is probably the result of distortion that occurs in photocopies that are generations removed from an original.
<...>And Selectrics produced documents in a variety of type fonts, including Greek letters and all manner of esoteric scientific/mathematical symbols. You really could type open and close quotation parks and curly apostrophes. Superscript type was easily created by shifting. Even a reduced superscript "th" was technically possible, in spite of what the wingnuts are saying now."

Despite the fact that I think we need an adequate response to all of this, I really hope all of this crap comes to an end ASAP. I think Josh Marshall's analysis of what's going on with the Kerry campaign is spot on. The focus is being taken off of the Bush admin's blunders, like Iraq, which is not a good thing for Kerry.

[Supersedeas]

60. Your Woman is Laura Bush: CNN cites her as an EXPERT

See:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/14/tues/index.html

<<(Laura Bush weighed in on disputed memos from the president's former squadron commander in the National Guard. In an interview yesterday with Radio Iowa, the first lady revealed her skills as an expert in typography and archival research, declaring, "You know, they probably are altered, and they probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really.")>>

But, that is just CNN revealing Laura's expert skills at typography and archival research.

"...that's terrible, really."

CNN: you can say that again.

[molly]

56. What about that $10,000.00 offer to anyone

that can prove they served with him? Last I heard, it was not claimed. Maybe we should do one too.