CBS News is mounting a steadfast defense of the authenticity of documents

[CatWoman]

"You know, (the documents) probably are altered and they probably are forgeries and I think that's terrible, really."
First lady Laura Bush, to Radio Iowa

New York Times columnist William Safire wrote Monday that Newsweek magazine had apparently begun an external investigation: it names "a disgruntled former Guard officer" as a principal source for CBS, noting "he suffered two nervous breakdowns" and "unsuccessfully sued for medical expenses."

The L.A. Times reported that handwriting analyst, Marcel Matley, who CBS had claimed vouched for the authenticity of four memos, vouched for only one signature, and no scribbled initials. The Times reports he has no opinion about the typography of any of the supposed memos.

The Washington Post on Tuesday catalogued a number of doubts about the documents, including factual problems like an apparently outdated address for Mr. Bush on one document, differences in typing style between the newly broadcast documents and others from the Texas Air National Guard, and examples of incorrect military lingo.

The New York Times reported that some CBS News employees are growing increasingly worried over the questions about the documents.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan on Monday said the White House was not investigating the documents, but cited "serious questions" about their authenticity.

"I think experts and journalists have continued to look into the issue and have raised a number of questions," McClellan said. "And these are serious questions that are being investigated by many news organizations and we look forward to seeing what those results are."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

[democrat in Tallahassee]

1. just ask Bush if the statements in the docs are true, forget the

documents just ask him the questions.

[papau]

15. Besides they are not fake - despite NY Post/ABCNote link to Doc "expert"

that says forgery -but He's not on point - the Expert challenges points not at issue - - MR. JOSEPH M. NEWCOMER, PH.D. - you are amazing!

And as was posted, Laura Bush says the documents are likely forgeries-'You know they are probably altered," she told Radio Iowa in Des Moines yesterday. 'And they probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really.' - but asked what reason she had to say the WH answer is "Mrs. Bush was asked her opinion and she shared it."


So NEWCOMER, PHD -the DOCUMENT EXPERT OF THE DAY (started with computer typesetting technology in 1972) - SAYS HE CAN MAKE FORGERIES WITH TODAY'S MACHINES!

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/expert.htm

The Bush "Guard memos" are forgeries!

First off, before I start getting a lot of the wrong kind of mail: I am not a fan of George Bush. But I am even less a fan of attempts to commit fraud, and particularly by a complete and utter failure of those we entrust to ensure that if the news is at least accurate. I know it is asking far too much to expect the news to be unbiased. But the people involved should not actually lie to us, or promulgate lies created by hoaxers, through their own incompetence.

There has been a lot of activity on the Internet recently concerning the forged CBS documents. I do not even dignify this statement with the traditional weasel-word “alleged”, because it takes approximately 30 seconds for anyone who is knowledgeable in the history of electronic document production to recognize this whole collection is certainly a forgery, and approximately five minutes to prove to anyone technically competent that the documents are a forgery. I was able to replicate two of the documents within a few minutes. At time I a writing this, CBS is stonewalling. They were hoaxed, pure and simple. CBS failed to exercise anything even approximately like due diligence. I am not sure what sort of "expert" they called in to authenticate the document, but anything I say about his qualifications to judge digital typography is likely to be considered libelous (no matter how true they are) and I would not say them in print in a public forum.<snip>

(NOTE:The Selectric Composer does not count - in ABCNOTE and the NY POST- apparently - because ) The probability that any technology in existence in 1972 would be capable of producing a document that is nearly pixel-compatible with Microsoft’s Times New Roman font and the formatting of Microsoft Word, and that such technology was in casual use at the Texas Air National Guard, is so vanishingly small as to be indistinguishable from zero.<snip> LOL

(BUT HE KNOWS OF ).."proportional-spaced typewriters (such as the IBM Executive) and print production technologies (such as the VariTyper)" - (BUT not the Selectric Composer for the Killian memo - and the forms are just that - each line couhavevre been typed by a different typewriter - first Executive - the Composer - then Executive - etc - and probably was) - and while his attempted cut and paste forged signature is "pretty evidently a forgery, because of the artifacts" others with access to 1972 originals could do better - or not.

And never a word about the Selectric Composer - and the ABCNOTE and NY Post run with it!

Amazing.

LOL

but sigh .....



http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB1095112449779...

As in Olden Days,
U.S. Media Reflect
The Partisan Divide
September 14, 2004; Page A4

In the final moments of the Republican convention -- after the balloons had fallen and the cameras had turned away -- an unusual commotion broke out in the seats surrounding CNN's convention-floor set. Dozens of delegates turned to where Judy Woodruff and Wolf Blitzer were conducting interviews and started chanting loudly: "WATCH FOX NEWS. WATCH FOX NEWS."

The demonstration highlighted what may become one of the most lasting legacies of campaign 2004: The increasing polarization of the American media and their audiences. The delegates clearly viewed CNN as an enemy in their midst -- and Fox as a friend.

That media gulf widened further last week -- to Grand Canyon-like dimensions -- thanks to CBS's Dan Rather. Questioned about the authenticity of documents he used criticizing President Bush's National Guard service, Mr. Rather was quoted by the Washington Post's Howard Kurtz as saying: "Until someone shows me definitive proof that they are not , I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."<snip>

[dansolo]

28. "pixel-compatible with Microsoft’s Times New Roman font"

This assertion is blatantly false. Every single letter in the memo has a uniform weight. With Times New Roman, the letters vary in weight around the curved strokes.

[Qutzupalotl]

45. Right you are.

It's not "pixel-compatible" unless you're looking at littlegreenfootball's tiny pixels. Mine are bigger :):


It's not a Word document.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

57. speaking of "fake"

........................................

[Beetwasher]

59. LOL!

Pathetic...

[CatWoman]

60. it seems a village is now missing 2 idiots

:D

[krkaufman]

2. And the media continues to ignore the mounting disasters...

... that are Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan, North Korea, etc.

No discussion of Bush's complicity in the coup attempt on Chavez in Venezuela.

No discussion of the increase in terrorism -- acts and recruiting.

No discussion of the fact that bin Laden and Mullah Omar are still free, and that the Taliban is regaining strength and territory.

No discussion of the increasing poverty.

No discussion of the tax burden being shifted from the wealthy to the middle and lower classes.

blah

blah

blah

[hexola]

3. Is it becoming a Win-Win situation...?

If they were faked by someone other that CBS - we win - CBS will be vindicated. And the Bush cabal will look desparate and deceitful.

If they are real - we win again...

The fact that the WH is staying out is telling...so far Rather has taken the brunt of the criticism...why would the WH want to save his ass?

Personally - I begining to think Rather was the real target here.

[CatWoman]

4. I liked the way they listed all the attacks

that's why I posted them -- all doubts, accusations; not facts, proof.

[Philostopher]

6. I know they don't like Dan Rather.

He really got under Poppy's skin back during the '88 and '92 elections. Some have posted here that it goes even deeper and farther back than that, which is entirely possible. And let's face it -- this is a tremendous scoop for Rather, as long as they have people to back up the assertions made in the documents -- whether the documents they released are legit or not -- so why wouldn't the other news organizations be pissed off and chewing their own hair off?

As has been noted, it's impossible to prove a negative either way -- Killian's been dead for 20 years, so you can't just ask him. All the evidence I've seen on either side is hearsay. I don't think it makes any difference -- nobody's said the content of the documents is false.

[hexola]

10. It goes back to...well well well - - -VIET NAM!!!

I'm a bit younger - but wasn't Rather one of the first guys to go in to the war zone and televise? Isn't he credited with bringing the "reality of war" home to americans?

[blue neen]

49. Yeah, you are correct.

He was one of the first journalists to bring Viet Nam into our homes and make it real.

Dan Rather has credibility!

[Myrina]

23. I think it's becoming lose-lose

BECAUSE NOBODY'S TALKING ABOUT THE CONTENT or the other Bush failures that are plaguing the country !!!!

[greenohio]

71. I agree 100%

let the freekers play with thier old typerwriters and we can talk about the issues.

[Nederland]

5. I've said it before

...and I'll say it again. These documents are fakes and Dan Rather got snowed.

Moreover, my tin foil hat says they came from Rove, but we'll never be able to prove it.

[CatWoman]

8. sometimes DU gives Rove a bit too much credit

[trumad]

9. Say it all you want...

now prove it!

[CatWoman]

12. Tru!!!

:hi:

:loveya:

[Nederland]

14. Done

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

[Beetwasher]

20. This Site Is a Joke

This guy erroneously claims they're forgeries because he thinks he can reproduce the docs on his word processor and because the font is similar.

People make the same arguments about the moon landing. "It COULD have been reproduced, so therefore it's FAKE!"

This is a nonsensical ridiculous logical fallacy.

Times New Roman has been around since '31. All Times New Roman fonts ARE SIMILAR because they are ALL based on the original font and formatting. Duh.

Keep pushing the propoganda.

[Beetwasher]

11. What A Load Of Crap! I Bet You Believe the Moon Landing Was Faked Too!

After all, some people say it was and they have lot's of questions about that too! :eyes:

The burden is on those making the claim of forgeries. So far, I've seen nothing but unsubstantiated bullshit. No concrete evidence.

[Nederland]

13. Explain this then

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

[librechik]

17. this expert ALSO has not examined the original documents

and so in professional terms CANNOT CLAIM to have debunked them, except hypothetically. We need the originals to look for pressure imprint of the keys on the actual paper. Otherwise there will always be doubt.

This man does not have the originals. Does CBS? That is MY worry.

[Nederland]

22. Good point

CBS could do us all a great service if they allowed access to the documents they have. Don't you wonder why they haven't....?

[Medium Baby Jesus]

75. Respect to MoPaul

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

58. What A Load Of Crap!

You can only prove a forgery from a copy if there are very OBVIOUS signs, like a completely different signature, etc. You can't make any determination about the minute details however, which is what idiots who are claiming these are forgeries are basing their arguments on.

Things like kerning, font distinction etc. can not be determined conclusively from generations removed, electronic copies. It's idiotic to even suggest it.

[Beetwasher]

18. It's Crap

The moon landing also COULD have been reproduced, does that mean it WAS reproduced?

How idiotic.

"The probability that any technology in existence in 1972 would be capable of producing a document that is nearly pixel-compatible with Microsoft’s Times New Roman font and the formatting of Microsoft Word, and that such technology was in casual use at the Texas Air National Guard, is so vanishingly small as to be indistinguishable from zero."

Ummm, MS Word's Times New Roman font was more than likely based on the older font and formatting. Duh. That's why it's comaptible and similar. After this assinine claim, why should I even continue reading further? This is total bullshit.

[Nederland]

21. Nice try

But until you explain the existence of psuedo-kerning I call bullshit.

[Beetwasher]

25. Garbage

Typewriters did shit like that all the time. Not on purpose, but because the paper shifts slightly or it may need maintenance. I once had a typewriter that always "pseudo-kerned" the letter "e" because it needed maintenance or a new part, but the letter "e" always ended up tucked much closer to the letter before it.

Additionally, the copies he's looking at are electronic and blurred and many generations from the original. It's ludicrous to suggest the letters are kerned and not just blurred together from copying and electronic reproduction, and that's actually what it looks like.

You are transparently pushing bullshit. You should be ashamed.

Burden is on you to provide concrete evidence of forgeries instead nonsensical bullshit about "pseudo-kerning".

[CatWoman]

26. Kick his ass, Beetwasher

I'm getting sick of his propaganda.

[TexasUnderground]

30. The burden of evidence indicating they are forgeries

has been established. It is now up to CBS to prove that they are NOT forgeries by providing original documents that can be independently verified by someone other than the staff at CBS and a handwriting expert.

Several people have managed to produce exact copies of the memos using Microsoft Word. NO ONE has been able to produce an exact copy of the memo using any typewriter. But yet you still cling to the authentic memo theory.

This shit is going to sink our campaign if you guys keep it up. I can't believe you are so desperate to believe that the memos are real when they are so obviously fraudulent. Karl Rove must be laughing it up.

[Beetwasher]

32. LOL! What A Load Of Crap!

No, there has been no burden of evidence to establish they are forgeries. Only that people can reproduce SIMILAR not EXACT documents. And they could do that to ANY document created back then. Does that mean the are ALL forgeries? Do you realize how idiotic that is?

The moon landing COULD have been reproduced. It's up to YOU to prove it WASN'T! Can you do that?

Do you know anything about logic Einstein? No one can prove ANYTHING is NOT a forgery. How stupid. Go back to grammar school, you need to brush up on elementary logic.

[Nederland]

35. Thank You

The inability of people around here to objectively evaluate facts will be the death of us.

[Beetwasher]

38. Uh, I Guess YOU Need Logic Classes Too

The moon landing could also have been reproduced, therefore you must prove it WASN'T!

Is there a logical fallacy you won't grasp at? Are you agreeing w/ that posters idiotic logic? He's also an obvious disruptor, funny you look to him for support.

[Qutzupalotl]

46. Exact copy, my ass.

[Beetwasher]

47. Also Notice the Little Idiosyncracies, Like in the Date

Where the "8" is slightly higher than the "1"

This was obviously done on a typewriter and the paper probably shifted slightly.

These fucking morons are grasping at straws.

[Qutzupalotl]

50. Also the superscript is at a different height and size from Word.

I believe that's impossible in MS Word.

[CatWoman]

52. Hey, Nederland!!!!

Can you *gasp* explain this?????

[Qutzupalotl]

68. Follow-up

Okay, it's not IMPOSSIBLE in Word, but you'd really have to bend over backwards to replicate this. You'd have to change font sizes and adjust the baseline shift. The implication from the "forgery" theory proponents seems to be that Word just automatically created the superscript. That is false.

And I have yet to hear an explanation of how the font was generated, when it doesn't seem to be available on the PC. It's definitely not Times New Roman. Look at the lowercase i.

[Beetwasher]

69. And Also Look At the Lower Case "t"

It's missing the cross on the left side of the "t" in some instances...This could be because of a bad copy or because it was done on a typewriter and it didn't print thoroughly...

[TexasUnderground]

72. All of the defects you are attributing to mechanical typewriters

whether manual or electic can be replicated on a fax machine using MS-Word.

It's a bad forgery. I'm not sure why some of us have this pathological obsession with maintaining it's legit.

[CatWoman]

73. Is this place French now????

All of a sudden, everyone is saying "oui"

[Beetwasher]

74. WTF The Fuck Are You Talking About? Are You On Drugs?

Replicated on a FAX machine?? WTF are you talking about?

If it's a forgery and it was done on MS Word, it's actually brilliant AND stupid. Brilliant because they replicated the idiosyncratic typeset of a typewriter amazingly well and stupid because they did it the hard way, with MS Word, when they probably could have picked up a typewriter from back then for $5 on ebay.

Some people are just friggin' ridiculously stupid.

[CatWoman]

48. good job, NRK!!!

:thumbsup:

[greenohio]

70. Dude this is a loser for us...let it go.

This is a loser for us. Proportional spacing and superscripting aside, the type doesn't match the other 100 documents from that office. Whether they are fakes or not, they ARE suspect. We can't fall into the trap of tying Kerry's campaign to whether or not these docs a real.

When repukes bring it up, we should tell them they are petty and should be talking about the issues. What's shrub's plan for health care.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18982-20...

[trumad]

64. Dude...I asked for prrof and you give me this....

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. That's an understatement

some people have WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time on their hands.
worse yet, they have access to the internet.

[Cocoa]

16. Nederland, you've been at DU a while

you were here when there was a debate over whether we'd find WMD.

Of course, neither side knew, but most of us thought we would NOT find them, and some dissenters thought we would.

Did you take a position on that, were you one of the dissenters that turned out to be wrong?

[Nederland]

24. Help me out

I don't recall anyone at DU claiming there were no WMDs. At least not until well after it was obvious. If there were they were not even close to a majority. As for me, I took the exactly same position that John Kerry took--that war in Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein was a good idea poorly executed by the Bush administration. Yes, unlike most of DU, I was in favor of the war in principle. I merely think it was a mistake to go in without more support.

[Cocoa]

27. yes, there was an active debate

in particular, during the period after the invasion, when all those WMD sightings started appearing, there were those who believed them and those who called bullshit.

This forgery debate reminds me of that WMD debate.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmylips]

7. WH clever, made it into Dan Rather's problem....

The bushes have hated Dan Rather since Rather challenged pooppy bush on live TV. Rather made pooppy look and sound like the dope that he is...Pooppy Out of Touch.

[AngryAmish]

29. These will be proven to be true

When CBS produces the ball and then produces the originals. The shit-eaters will have some explaining to do then.

[demvoterforlife]

31. Not likely.

If CBS had the originals, we would have seen them by now. They just need to dig in and attack anyone and everyone who claims these memos are not authentic. Whatever they do, they can never, ever admit that they are forgeries, even if they are. I doubt we will nver know for sure one way or the other. There seems to be strong evidence on both sides of the question.

[bobbyboucher]

44. Spoken from experience?

Your advice to CBS is to lie indefinetly. Brilliant. You can't even prove they are fake and your advice is to lie indefinetely. That's posiiveley Rovian.

[Nederland]

37. If that happens

I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Until then, I'm waiting.

[Beetwasher]

39. LOL!

I won't hold my breath until you EVER admit you were wrong about anything.

Still think invading Iraq was a splendid idea? Still think there are WMD's?

LOL! Yeah, right, you'll admit you're wrong. :eyes:

[Nederland]

40. Yes, I was wrong about WMDs

See, unlike you, I have no problem admitting errors.

[Beetwasher]

41. Well, You'd Have To Be A Real Idiot

not to admit that...So glad to see you're not a real idiot.

I admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. Do I know for a FACT these are not forgeries? No, but I've yet to see any convincing evidence. That silly website you posted has been shown to be complete bullshit based on total fallacies and generations removed electronic copies.

[Nederland]

42. Time will tell (nt)

[Beetwasher]

43. Considering Your Track Record, I'll Stick W/ My Position

Yup, time will tell, just like w/ the WMD's....

[Spazito]

33. Has CBS said they have never seen the originals?

I think they have seen the originals and had them examined for authenticity but the originals are in the hands of the source. I wonder if the originals also identify the source so they are not going to be public?

[AngryAmish]

36. Somebody has the originals

They will come out. It is the only way to prove they are not forgeries.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

53. That's Gotta Be The Dumbest Thing I Ever Heard

Enjoy your short stay!

[CatWoman]

54. were you dropped on your head in the delivery room?

[drdigi420]

61. stop eating the lead paint

[KoKo]

62. Cat, do you think putting Laura out there is a sign of desperation?

That was my first thought when I heard the clip of her on CNN saying they were forgeries. She never makes a statement about anything, so why would they need to use her for this? Unless it's to shore up the RW of the party who would feel if she said it, it must be true.

Why bring Laura to the rescue? :shrug:

[CatWoman]

63. Hi, Koko

it smacks of desperation and contempt.

They always trot Laura out when their backs are against the wall.

I guess they figure they are playing it safe by using her to spout their b.s., as they figure no one will attack Pickles.

[trumad]

65. So let's look at this thread

From what I've read from numerous sources including typewriter experts is.... that this type font was available on certain typewriters when these memos were made. And believe me, I've read and watched dozens of experts shoot down the forgeries bullshit.

And Nederland comes in this thread with one little document on a very goofy looking web page with proof that ALLLLLL the experts that I have seen and read are wrong. You're trying very very hard here Nederland to disprove something that has clearly been debunked and that clearly makes the chimp look like the deserting asshole that he is. Why is that? Justice and truth for all? But wait a minute...the truth clearly favors CBS but you're still fighting hard to clear Bush... :wtf:

[KoKo]

67. Trumad, I think you replied in the wrong spot .....this is about Pickles..

You were replying to Nederlan...:D

[Scorpious_Maximus]

66. Well they would be wrong!

"Hey pickles! Want to go for a ride?"


Yikes!