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IMUS: From Detroit, Michigan, Senator John Kerry.
Good morning, Senator Kerry.
KERRY: Good morning, Don Imus. How are you?
IMUS: I'm fine, sir. How are you?
KERRY: I'm doing terrific. Thank you.
IMUS: Where's Edwards?
KERRY: Edwards is in -- well, he was in Oregon last night, and
he's in West Virginia today. He's campaigning hard.
IMUS: I wondered if he was still on the ticket. We haven't
heard from him.
KERRY: No, he's doing great. He's doing great.
He's got -- God, he had about 8,000 people, 10,000 people in
Missouri the other day. He's doing wonderfully.
IMUS: I had James Carville and -- both James Carville and Paul
Begala on the program here in the past week or so, and there were
these rumors that they were advising your campaign, and I said to
Carville I didn't think he really wanted you to win, you know, and he
called me an idiot.
But who is running your campaign?
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: Mary Beth Cahill is running my campaign and she's doing a
spectacular job.
James Carville and Paul Begala are good friends and good
advisers. They've given us a lot of good advice. And they're very
savvy people, and they do want us to win, and we are going to win.
IMUS: Why would they want you to win when they want to run her
in '08?
KERRY: I don't agree with that. I think that's...
IMUS: Well, they don't either, but...
KERRY: You know, that's everybody's game and speculation. I
just don't believe that.
I think James Carville cares enormously about how Bush is leading
our country in the wrong direction and -- I mean, look, the choice,
Don, is really pretty simple. Everybody's making it complicated, but
it really is simple.
We've lost 1.6 million jobs. He's the first president in 72
years to have lost jobs. We have a tax burden -- the share of the tax
burden has gone up for the middle class, down for the wealthiest
folks. Five million people have lost their health care. We have the
largest budget deficits in American history.
If people think we're moving in the right direction, go out and
jump up and down and support George Bush. But if you believe that we
can put people back to work and stop losing all our jobs overseas and
create better jobs here, be fiscally responsible, and do a better job
in terms of our relationships in the world and start fighting terror
in a smart or effective way, I think there's a new direction. That's
the simple choice in this race.
Every time George Bush has had a choice, he has really chosen, I
think, the wrong thing. I mean, he chose tax cuts over investing. He
chose to go into Iraq alone over waiting for our allies and building a
stronger alliance. He's chosen bad trade policy. We have the largest
trade deficit in the history of the country.
We're going to China and Japan and people to have them buy our
debt today.
KERRY: I mean, we have a very, very serious economic situation,
very serious international situation, and the president just doesn't
seem to get it.
IMUS: You know what would've been funny -- I mean, I don't know
whether you'd think it would've been funny or not -- but if he'd've --
what's the matter with your throat?
KERRY: I'm doing great, actually.
IMUS: Well, why are you coughing and hacking then?
KERRY: Well, because I'm imitating you in the morning.
(LAUGHTER)
IMUS: Wouldn't it have been funny if he'd've showed up for that
speech yesterday, that National Guard speech -- the president went up
there and gave that dopey salute like you did and said, "Reporting for
duty, finally"?
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: Yes, actually it would have been funny.
IMUS: Or just not shown up at all, that would actually have been
more amusing. But those guys don't have a sense of humor.
You know, in this interview you did in Time magazine and then the
survey they did, other organizations, they suggest that terrorism has
replaced some of the issues you were talking about as the single most
important issue, like the economy and so on, and you've said you'll
fight a more effective war on terror.
KERRY: Yes, I will.
IMUS: Well, what does that mean?
KERRY: It means I'll do a better job of making America safe.
George Bush has talked a game, but he hasn't done it. Let me
give you an example.
Homeland security -- 95 percent of the containers that come into
America are not inspected. The president's been told again and again
by security folks and others that that's a danger to America.
He hasn't done what we need to do to protect us. Nuclear and
chemical plants in America are still without the kinds of plans and
protection they need. We still have firehouses that are not fully
staffed. We have cops -- cops are being cut from the streets of
America.
I just was endorsed by the National Association of Police
Officers the other day. There -- you know, there's -- there are about
$2.2 billion reduced to about $600 million for police officers on the
streets. Why would you do that when police officers are not just
first responders, they're first defenders?
in Israel, they train police officers in how to actually patrol,
aware of terror, and alert for terror, and to be able to look for
different patterns in a community. We're not training our police
officers to do that in some of the high-target areas, let alone in all
areas.
There are all kinds of things that we could be doing with respect
to other countries.
The president has alienated some of the most important allies of
the United States of America.
I mean, I understand you just went over to Walter Reed; I've been
over there, and I know it had an impact on you. I'll tell you, when I
met those kids over there and you see some of them with their arms
grafted to their legs and they're, you know, going through six months
and a year of dealing with a wound that came about because they don't
have the armored Humvees over there, because some of these kids are
over there without the state-of-the-art armor.
KERRY: I mean, this president sent people to war without the
state-of-the-art equipment, without the kinds of allied support,
without the kinds of judgments that should have been made beforehand.
He says he miscalculated. My God, the miscalculation was
ignoring the advice of General Shinseki, ignoring the advice of the
military advisers.
I said a year ago, Donald Rumsfeld should have been fired. He
should resign. The Abu Ghraib prison scandal is not the reason. The
reason is the most serious miscalculation in the going to war and the
sending of young American men and women into harm's way in a long time
that I can remember, perhaps since Vietnam.
And I'll tell you, there were five widows of 9/11 who stood up
yesterday, some of whom voted for George Bush last time, and they said
they're not going to vote for him this time, and they can't vote for
him, because he pushed and fought and stonewalled the 9/11 Commission
and fought against trying to find out what happened.
I don't believe he's taken the proactive steps to make America
safer; I will.
IMUS: They can't get this equipment for these troops if people
like you won't vote for the funding though.
KERRY: We did vote for the funding. We voted for the funding.
I voted for the largest defense budgets in the history of our
country. And I voted -- this is long after the war, that $87 billion
vote. The war had started. These people were sent over there without
the equipment and they still don't have the equipment.
And I've met families across America who are struggling, you
know, they go out and they hold a bake auction or they do some charity
effort in order to buy the armor on the Internet, send it to their
kids. That's not the way you send young Americans into war.
IMUS: We're talking with Senator John Kerry who's in Detroit
this morning.
Back to the war on terror for a second. There hasn't been an
attack in this country since September 11, 2001, three years. Have we
just been lucky? Who gets the credit for that? Is there any credit
due anybody?
KERRY: Well, I think that the FBI and the CIA are doing a better
job than they were doing, and I give them credit for that. I think
they've done some things better.
But we're not doing the things as well as we ought to be doing.
I'm told that it's still very easy to get in with passport forgeries
and other kinds of things. We know that there are people in the
country, and frankly, a lot of the folks that I've talked to -- I
can't go into all the briefings, but I can tell you that some people
scratch their heads and they're not completely sure why.
One thing is certain: Terror is up around the world over the
course of the last year or two. And the number of troops that have
been killed has been up every single month. It was up in June, it was
up in July from June, it was up in August from July.
And the fact is that we have whole areas of Iraq now where there
are not -- where American troops can't go, where there are terrorists
where there weren't terrorists before.
And what the 9/11 widows said yesterday is really important.
That the war in Iraq is not the principal war against terror that we
were focused on in Afghanistan with Al Qaida. Osama bin Laden and Al
Qaida did 9/11. Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida knocked those buildings
down, hit the Pentagon, saw that plane, you know, those people
courageously give their lives to save the nation's capital. And
they're not in Iraq. And they weren't in Iraq. And Iraq was not the
focus.
The focus of Iraq was weapons of mass destruction. And the
president has misled America about those weapons, about the
intelligence, about the war. He's misled America about what we're
achieving today and what is happening on the ground in Iraq.
And I think we deserve a president who tells the American people
the truth and who has the ability to bring our allies into this
effort.
The president has alienated so many people that they're just
sitting on the sidelines, not even living up to the resolution of the
U.N. that they voted for. And the president doesn't even seem capable
of holding them accountable to that.
IMUS: You said, Senator Kerry, a while back, not that long ago
-- and I assume you meant all of the things you're talking about now,
but you said knowing what you know now, which would include just what
you've been talking about, you would have still voted to authorize the
use of force in Iraq, which doesn't make any sense to me.
KERRY: Yes, it actually does make sense.
IMUS: Explain it. Help me out here.
KERRY: Let me explain it to you.
I felt in 1998, and I said that Clinton ought to have the power,
the authority to use force, in order to force Saddam Hussein to have
inspectors, to be able to disarm. The only way to get the inspectors
in was to be tough, to have the threat of force and the authority to
use force.
I was prepared to use the force if he didn't do what he needed to
do. But I warned the president, as did many people, take the time to
build up the international coalition, don't rush to war, because the
most difficult part is not winning the military part of the war; it's
winning the peace.
The president ignored that. And what he basically did was cut
off the inspection process and rush to war. Now, I believe that
Saddam Hussein was sufficiently duplicitous and, you know, couldn't
obviously -- you don't trust him, so you needed that threat to be able
to make certain you had the inspectors and were going through a
process to hold him accountable.
KERRY: But we could have held him accountable. We had him --
you know, we had two-thirds of that country in a no-fly zone on day
one. And the fact is that what the president wanted to do was just
get in there and go do it. And he did it in such a rushed way that he
ignored what the consequences would be.
It was wrong to rush to war without a better understanding of
what you'd confront in a hostile, postwar Iraq. It was wrong to rush
to war without a better understanding of Iraqi nationalism and Iraqi
tribal separatism. And it was wrong to have no plan except the
initial military victory. So when they won, they didn't even guard
the ammunition dumps, which now are the weapons that are being used
against our soldiers.
IMUS: Half those kids at Walter Reed -- in fact, more than half
of them were injured by these improvised explosive devices, these
IEDs. I didn't know what that meant until one of them explained it to
me.
KERRY: Right.
IMUS: You know, Senator Kerry, you say you have this plan to get
out of Iraq in your first term, which, barring some scandal, would be
four years.
(LAUGHTER)
I've known you a long time, Senator Kerry.
KERRY: That's counting correctly. That's counting correctly.
IMUS: What is this plan you have?
KERRY: Well, the plan gets more complicated every single day
because the president...
IMUS: Try to simplify it for me so I can understand it.
KERRY: I'm going to just tell you why.
IMUS: OK.
KERRY: Because about -- I can't remember whether it's -- several
months ago, I said, "This may the president's last chance to get it
right in Iraq." That's what I said.
And I said, as Joe Biden did and others did, "Mr. President,
you've got to lead. You've got to get the international community at
the table." The president has never done that.
Now it's obviously, with the situation on the ground, much more
complicated; I have to acknowledge that. It is more complicated. But
I would immediately call a summit meeting of the European community.
They haven't lived up to the obligations of their own resolution that
they passed at the U.N.
It is important to do much more rapid training. Senator Biden
came back from over there, other experts have observed they're not
doing the training that's necessary, at a pace that's necessary, in a
way that's necessary to establish the security.
KERRY: And it is going to be critical to accelerate that kind of
training. But look, I have to look and see what I have on January 20.
At the rate the president's going, nobody can predict what will happen
on January 20.
I'll tell you this: A new president, with new credibility, with
a fresh start, who listens to the military leaders, doesn't fire them,
like General Shinseki, when they give him advice they don't like, a
new president who has credibility with the foreign leaders, will have
the opportunity to isolate the extremists and to bring people to the
table in different ways: for border security, for training, and to do
the things necessary to provide stability.
I'm committed to providing that stability, but I'll tell you,
this president is making it tougher every single day by just not
understanding and not being honest about what's going on.
IMUS: But it sounds -- that may or may not be a good plan, but
meanwhile, we had three soldiers dead in Iraq yesterday and how many
die before -- wind up over there in the rehab room at Walter Reed
before a plan like this kicks into effect?
Also, I was talking to...
KERRY: Well, Don, I realize that, but the fact is that the
president is the president.
I mean, what you ought to be doing and what everybody in America
ought to be doing today is not asking me; they ought to be asking the
president, What is your plan? What's your plan, Mr. President, to
stop these kids from being killed?
What's your plan, Mr. President, to get the other countries in
there? What's your plan to have 90 percent of the casualties and 90
percent of the cost being carried by America?
I mean, he is the president today, and we have given him advice
from day one; from day one, from the floor of the Senate when we
debated it where I said don't -- you know, you've got to have other
countries with you, don't make an end runaround the U.N., the
difficulty is not winning the military, it's winning the peace; and he
ignored it.
And others -- the bipartisan, Dick Lugar, the chairman of the
Foreign Relations Committee, and Joe Biden, and the Foreign Relations
Committee gave him advice that he chose to ignore.
KERRY: And since then, many times we've stood up and said, "Mr.
President, this is what you have to do." He's chosen not to do those
things.
IMUS: We're asking you because you want to be president.
KERRY: That's correct. But I can't...
IMUS: He's not going to answer any questions.
KERRY: I can't tell you what I'm going to find on the ground on
January 20th.
IMUS: He's not calling me to be on the program. I had his dad
on.
Dad's still sore at you, some of those votes you cast when he was
president, by the way.
KERRY: Well, his dad was the one who recommended those military
cuts back then, and Dick Cheney was the vice president of the United
States who recommended those military cuts back then.
IMUS: You know, as I started to say, Senator Kerry, I was
talking to Craig Crawford from CBS News. He's, kind of, a whack job,
but he's fairly legitimate. And he a good question, and he thought it
was fair to ask you this, not that...
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: This is Don Imus' way of getting a question in that he
doesn't want to ask, that somebody else...
IMUS: I don't mind asking. I'll ask you anything.
But the question is, give us a couple names of people who would
help you get all these allies on board, somebody you might put in over
at the Pentagon or at State. You don't have to name your whole
Cabinet, which you're not going to do anyway probably, but...
KERRY: Well, I'm not going to run through...
IMUS: Well, just give us one name.
KERRY: No, I was just going to say to you, I'm not going to
start appointing people to positions, and I think that's completely
irresponsible and not appropriate. But...
IMUS: Either give us a name or we won't vote for you.
KERRY: But there are people who are advising me and who are very
respected in the community.
IMUS: Holbrooke?
KERRY: He is one who is advising me. I have Joe Biden is
advising me. There are -- Madeleine Albright, obviously, you know.
IMUS: That's a mistake.
KERRY: There are a number of -- General McPeak, General Clark.
There are a group of about 10 or 12 admirals and generals.
IMUS: OK.
KERRY: I mean, there's a very solid group of people waiting.
You have people like Sam Nunn and George Mitchell, and really
extraordinary group of capable people.
IMUS: Those are pretty good names.
KERRY: Beg your pardon?
IMUS: Those are pretty good names.
Madeleine Albright is a huge mistake. I mean, come on.
KERRY: No, she gives advice. She gives good advice. And I
think she gives good advice, frankly. And she has a very, very strong
sense of that region and of other regions and would have made much
smarter decisions than this group has.
IMUS: Do you think, Senator Kerry, there will be elections in
Iraq in January?
KERRY: I think it is very difficult to see today how you're
going to distribute ballots in places like Fallujah and Ramadi and
Najaf and other parts of the country without having established the
security. I know that the people who are supposed to run that
election believe that they need a longer period of time and greater
security before they can even begin to do it, and they just can't do
it at this point in time.
So I'm not sure the president is being honest with the American
people about that situation either at this point.
IMUS: Did you read "Unfit for Command"?
KERRY: No.
IMUS: Did anybody on your staff?
KERRY: I have no idea.
IMUS: Why wouldn't you want to know what's in it? It's the
number one New York Times -- of course, it says nonfiction bestseller.
KERRY: Because they have right-wing people to buy them in bulk,
and that's what they're doing.
IMUS: No, I understand.
KERRY: Look, it's a pack of lies. It's an absolute pack of
lies. It's been proven to be a pack of lies, and I have no interest
in reading it.
IMUS: Time magazine asked you about this rough month you had in
August with the Swift boat ads, the convention, which you whaled on
you guys, Vice President Cheney suggesting that your election would
invite another terrorist strike. And you said the president's
unwilling just to walk away from these various comments, makes it
clear that he and the vice president will say and do anything to get
elected.
And my question is, didn't you already know that, that's how they
are?
KERRY: Well, it's not just that. I think it's a level of
irresponsibility that is beyond anything that I've ever seen.
IMUS: Look what they did to McCain.
KERRY: Well, that's what I was about to say. To John McCain --
this group to John McCain called him the Manchurian candidate. They
spread rumors that he had a black child when they were down in South
Carolina, that his wife was a drug addict. They actually challenged
the quality of his service while he was a prisoner of war. They
challenged his character. They lied about him again and again. They
lied about Max Cleland.
And people have learned.
And so that's why I said -- I'm not -- but I think that what's
interesting about their statement about terror is that if you look at
their record in dealing with homeland security and you look at their
record in dealing with terror, they really have already made the world
less safe while they've been in office.
And so that's a debate I welcome. Bring that debate on.
And I look forward to these next five weeks. This campaign is
moving. We're doing very, very well right now. I think the American
people understand this is about choices. George Bush's choices have
been the wrong choices.
IMUS: But there are people who say -- I mean, you may not want
to get to their level, but there is a sentiment out there among a lot
of your supporters, and Tony Coehlo and a bunch of these other people,
who think that you and Senator Edwards have to punch back, and...
KERRY: Well, we are punching back.
IMUS: But, I mean, if they're dropping bombs on you, y'all can't
fight with, oh, I don't know, spitballs.
KERRY: Don, I am going to tell the truth, we're not. I am
absolutely taking the gloves off, I'm prepared to take them on and
everything.
And here's what this election is about, it's about the
fundamental choices. When George Bush had a chance to do something
for workers, he chose to give Enron a $254 million tax break. When he
had a chance to help people, you know, get better drugs in America at
lower cost, he prohibited them importing them from Canada. He
wouldn't allow Medicare -- he raises the cost of Medicare.
I think the choices as we go through them are going to be very,
very clear in this race. George Bush has misled America, period. And
every time he's had a choice of doing something for working people,
doing something to put -- to create a fair trade law, doing something
to stand up for the middle class, he's turned around and he's stood up
for the wealthiest people in the country and the most powerful and
influential. And those choices will become clearer every step of the
way as we go forward in the next days.
I mean, he hasn't done anything about health care in four years.
Five million people have lost their health care, 1.4 million lost
their health care last year, 1.4 million people went into poverty last
year. Wrong choices for America.
IMUS: What should happen, Senator Kerry, to the guards and their
superiors if they're found guilty of abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib
prison in Iraq?
KERRY: Well, obviously, if somebody has engaged in activity like
that, they're going to have to pay a price for that.
But what irks me is that every study and every analysis shows
that this goes all the way up the chain of command. And you still
don't see the civilian leadership or people at the top of the chain of
command taking responsibility.
And I object to some sergeant or, you know, some enlisted person
being held accountable and held up to this scrutiny when this came
from both the White House and a Defense Department that changed the
behavior in how prisoners were going to be treated. They did it in
Guantanamo, they did it in Afghanistan, it spilled over into Iraq, and
no one yet is being held accountable, and that's wrong.
IMUS: But if these guards and superiors are in violation of the
Geneva Conventions...
KERRY: They have to be held accountable, and they will be.
IMUS: What does that mean? What does that mean?
KERRY: Well, It means that they're going also have to pay a
price for that, but it's got to be appropriate. It can't be
scapegoating. They can't be the only ones and they can't pay a higher
price while other people walk free. It has to be appropriate to the
level of, sort of, their understanding of what the rules were. And
wrong as it may be, it has to be put into a context, and I don't think
it has been yet.
IMUS: Back in May of 2001, on Meet the Press, you said you
yourself have committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of
other soldiers in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
And my question, Senator Kerry, is, is there a difference between
what happened in your case in Vietnam and what happened at Abu Ghraib,
in that both were acts in violation of the Geneva Conventions?
KERRY: There is a difference.
IMUS: What is it?
KERRY: There is a difference. What I was referring to in that
testimony was the general categorization of free-fire zones in Vietnam
and the general categorizations of some of the weapons that were being
used, which were in violation of the accords. We didn't learn that
until we came home. I didn't know any of that while I was there. I
didn't know any of that over there, nor did most soldiers.
And I never meant to impugn, I've never meant to categorize, you
know, all soldiers somehow in that category, but it was a general --
if you talk to Neil Sheehan, who wrote "Bright Shining Lie," or you
look even at the military manuals today that have drawn lessons from
that period of time, there were policies put in place overall.
We had a program called the Phoenix Program, which was an
assassination program, and people were taken out of villages and, you
know, the CIA ran it. There were a whole bunch of things that,
regrettably -- and, you know, it's an awful period of America's
history, but I told the truth about it. And that truth has been
confirmed in countless documents since then. And I regret that some
people are still upset about that period of time. You know, I was
angry about it when I came home.
IMUS: That's what they're angry at you about.
KERRY: Yes, that is what they're angry -- and I understand that,
Don. But I had the courage to stand up -- look, I went, I did my
duty, I came back, I saw what I saw and I told the truth. If some
people have trouble with that still, I'm sorry about it.
IMUS: A Freedom of Information Act request by The Washington
Post regarding your military records produced six pages of
information, while a spokesman for the Navy Personnel Command said
there were at least 100 pages of information available, but he was not
authorized to release them. Why can't we see this stuff?
KERRY: We've posted my military records that they sent to me --
were posted on my Web site. You can go to my Web site, and all my --
you know, the documents are there.
IMUS: So is -- everything's available?
KERRY: To the best of my knowledge. I think some of the medical
stuff may still be out there. We're trying to get it.
IMUS: The Washington Post doesn't think that it's all available,
and they could go to your Web site. Maybe they did.
KERRY: Well, we released everything that they initially sent me.
IMUS: You know, I don't know if this is amusing or not. It
might be. Toni Morrison characterized Bill Clinton as America's first
black president, and I read that you said that you wouldn't mind being
America's second black president. And my question is, when my friend
Harold Ford Jr. is elected president, what is he going to be, like
number three, or what?
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: No, he'll be number one. He'll be number one.
IMUS: Does he lose that distinction, or what happens?
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: Obviously it's a tongue in cheek -- I mean, that's a
joking comment.
IMUS: OK. Because Harold is upset, because I keep promoting...
KERRY: It's a characterization, not a reality.
IMUS: Harold is upset because I keep reporting -- I keep
supporting Barack Obama, but he was just the man of the moment and I
just jumped on that bandwagon.
KERRY: He gave a great speech. He did a spectacular job, didn't
he?
IMUS: Well, yes, he did.
Did you read Richard Cohen in yesterday's Washington Post?
KERRY: I did not.
IMUS: He wrote that in voting to authorize this war in Iraq that
we've been talking about this morning -- this is Richard Cohen, don't
get hysterical, not that you would but -- unlike Senator Kennedy, you
chose a supposedly safe and overly nuanced route that in Mr. Cohen's
view has left you, Senator Kerry, tongue-tied.
KERRY: Well, I disagree.
IMUS: Well, he's urging you to admit the war was a mistake and
then start attacking these people. Why can't you do that?
KERRY: But I do. That's exactly what I am doing. I think the
war -- I've said it a hundred times, I think it was a huge mistake for
the president to go to war the way he did. I've said that a dozen
times. I mean, the fact is that I...
IMUS: Do you think there are any circumstances we should have
gone to war in Iraq -- any?
KERRY: Not under the current circumstances, no, there are none
that I see.
I voted based on weapons of mass destruction. The president
distorted that and I've said that. I mean, look, I can't be clearer.
But I think it was the right vote based on what Saddam Hussein
had done, and I think it was the right thing to do to hold him
accountable.
I've said a hundred times, there was a right way to do it and a
wrong way to do it. The president chose the wrong way. Can't be more
direct than that.
IMUS: Thanks for taking the time to talk to me this morning.
Hey, listen, if you see Edwards, would you tell him Charles wants
his watch and his wallet back? We're sick of this.
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: I'll tell him you're looking for him.
IMUS: Yes.
KERRY: Will you have him on?
IMUS: Well, of course.
KERRY: He's doing a terrific job out there.
IMUS: We'll have him on from his undisclosed location. He
already thinks he's vice president. I mean, this is ridiculous.
(LAUGHTER)
Good luck, Senator Kerry, and thank you.
KERRY: Thank you very much.
IMUS: Senator John Kerry from Detroit, Michigan.
END
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