Question for those who dont like the discussion on Vietnam

[JohnKleeb]

How does my generation learn why it was wrong? I admit I am a history nerd to the max and I really dont know much about Vietnam, we have people my age who can't even name one of the five functions of the constiution, how do you expect them to learn why Vietnam was a mistake, maybe Kerry hasnt done the format perfectly but I really would like to know what my parents protested against, what others protested against, I know a little I concede but I know barely any information. Really in all honestly, its gonna be hard to learn why Iraq was a mistake if we don't know why Vietnam was wrong. Just saying.

[cheshire]

1. I don't have a place for you to go look it up but you could google it.

I can maybe answer some ?'s for you. I don't mind.

[JohnKleeb]

4. I really dont have any questions really

but I think anyone whos either 13-30 has to learn why Vietnam was a mistake, apparently school hasn't been able to get many people to understand but perhaps to hear it from a guy like Kerry who was there, and he can explain why so many refused to go and why the Nixon adminstration was one of the most corrupt ever.

[cheshire]

20. Why is it so important to get info from people. Google it. Do not

just make it others responsability. I learned Custer was a hero and Indians were murdering horrible savages in school. I fiqured out real quik about bias. Take responsability for your education.

[JohnKleeb]

21. I am not asking for info at all

I was asking why some people think Kerry is wrong to discuss it in let it be ads and etc.

[veteran_for_peace]

2. I think that it goes even deeper

It goes to the character of the candidates.

[JohnKleeb]

3. that too

A stark difference between the two guys.

[arbusto_baboso]

5. As a primer read "Street Without Joy" by Bernard Fall...

It's the book that shows how the French completely screwed the pooch in Indochina, and how the US learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from French mistakes.

[skygazer]

25. Follow it with "Vietnam: A History"

by Stanley Karnow.

[jonnyblitz]

6. i think what people who you refer to mean is

this discussion, in a political campaign, is distracting everyone from the current issues of today such as, Iraq, the economy, and this discussion about events 30 years ago is a purposeful distraction. or not :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

9. yes thats true but how the hell do we learn the mistakes from the past

You know I am a history nerd and I concede I know very little, and this is coming from an A student in US History, I know that my peers need to learn, of course there needs to be discussion of other issues but how the hell do we understand why Iraq is wrong without precedent.

[Zensea]

10. But the current issues of today have a lot to do with 30 years ago

The issue of U.S. imperial power is very much with us today because it did not get resolved 30 years ago.
If anything America needs a larger sense of history not a lesser sense.

[jonnyblitz]

13. oh I agree!!

I find all this Vietnam stuff interesting as hell. I thought Kerry was AWESOME back then. It has caused me to read some books about it even! I am just stating what others are complaining about. I believe EVERYTHING can be discussed. I never buy into "it has to be THIS or THIS" type of arguments. People can walk and chew gum at the same time. :hi:

[JI7]

7. you are right, it's what makes Democrats different from Republicans

i was born after the vietnam war also but i sure want to know what happened before. i think it's important to know what happened in history.

as for kerry he doesn't always talk about vietnam as that freeper troll claimed. i could tell he was a freeper troll when he said kerry responds to criticism by bringing up vietnam when that is not true.

[JohnKleeb]

11. He talks about plenty of other stuff

Yeah I did this in response to him. Kerry talks about a wide variety of issues, he really can touch me at times because its like seeing someone you'll know will be remembered as one of the greats.

[Zensea]

8. The documentary "Fog of War" is a good place to start

McNamara has something to say about it.

Also "From Yale to Jail" David Dellinger's autobiography, has quite a bit of information.

[JohnKleeb]

12. I bought that without having seen it yet heh

Didnt Dellinger die recently? thats a good idea, I'll be sure to see it, maybe history classes should show the documentary.

[Zensea]

15. Yes, Dellinger died very recently unfortunately

May 25th of this year.

[JohnKleeb]

17. I recalled reading that in the metro section

[bluedog]

14. What you should be asking

is why did the * send troops to Iraq .when he did know care enough about this country when it was his turn to fight for it....he did everything in his power to stay out of Nam and got stateside and then he couldn't even fulfill his obligation!......

He's good at putting others in harms way.but not his sorry ass!

[JohnKleeb]

16. Thats great too

[luaneryder]

18. The thread about * addressing the NG

made me think about those days way back. Everyone who was of draft age during Vietnam knows that it was the "honorable" out for the wealthy and well connected to say they served, yet didn't have to worry about getting killed. I see what you're saying and agree that everyone needs to be educated about that time since this nation seems so hell bent on repeating mistakes. We don't have to let it get in the way of what's important to this election and I give you a lot of credit for wanting to know about it. I feel sure you'll hear more from those who remember.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[partygirl]

24. that always confused the hell

out of me. My parents always used to say "you can't fight communism, you can't fight totalitarianism". I know they used to think (when I was younger) that one day we would all live under communism or socialism (and that it would be pretty cool). I think it would be very cool to try communal life but I don't know if I would like it so I would like to have the choice to just try it but leave if I wanted to. What changed? Cause now it is like oh well people act like communism is all over? Is it?

I thought that in Vietnam the Americans were trying to overthrow a peaceful agrarian reformist society. I know that when Kerry and the Swift Boat Liar dude debated Kerry said everything would be OK if we left Vietnam. Anyway I have been told that they killed a lot of people when we left? Is that true? Or is it just Republican lies? It has to at least be exaggeration, because I don't think they could have possibly killed like two million people or even more? We would talk about this more if it had of really happened I think? I love it when Kerry says "how do you ask someone to be the last man to die for a mistake" it is one of my favorite things he says. So Kerry believes that fighting against communism/totalitarianism was a mistake and I think we need to be telling people this! Kerry was so brave and smart to be against the war!

The question I have is why are so many people who claim to have "escaped" those places so bitter about the "commies"? My aunt and uncle adopted a Vietnamese refugee and even though she doesn't remember the war she is extremely bitter about communism it is her reason for being a really annonying republican and stuff. I have seen movies and stuff from the time and it is obvious that the protestors and peaceful hippie types were the cool people. I wish I had of lived back then, I totally would have been out there protesting the war with all the cool people.

I am so glad that our candidate was cool, hip and in the anti-war peace movement! It makes me proud to support him although I would only vote Democrat no matter who runs, because that is what my family does.

[Lerkfish]

26. yeah....riiiiiiight. Vietnam was "mismanaged"....

wow.

that's it. we were missing a crucial layer of midlevel bureaucrats....

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. Wow-a Neocon Talking Point!

:eyes:

[JimmyJazz]

22. Noam Chomsky has written some excellent books on the

subject. He's a bit dry, but he is really able to articulate when and why the war started. Unlike many historians who give the pat answer of the US got involved in a civil war to resist communism, he provides a more definitive historical analysis. I'm at work and can't provide titles, but you can google his name together with Viet Nam and get some great material. Thanks.

[lcordero]

23. It's wrong to discount Iraq or Vietnam as a mistake when

both campaigns were a fraud to begin with.

From what I was told be the old timers in my unit:

1. The attack in the Gulf of Tonkin was a blatant lie.
2. A corrupt government was being supported.
3. The main reason our armed forces was used in Vietnam was to protect drug and weapons running routes.
4. The war was being used as a distraction from the social and economic issues here at home.
5. The war was as much an attack on our poor as it was on Vietnam's poor.

[WilliamPitt]

27. YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING ABOUT VIETNAM

by watching these whores debate the relative merits of fucking campaign commercials about Vietnam.

Go read 'A Bright Shining Lie':

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679724141/qid=1095279892/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-0839099-8615168

[skygazer]

28. Vietnam is still a polarizing issue

I grew up during Vietnam. Strange time. The best and really the only way to learn about any history is to read as many sources as you possibly can and talk to people who were there or who grew up then. You'll get a million different points of view and you'll have to sift them and decide for yourself what makes sense to you.

Vietnam does have a place in this campaign but it's the sort of subject that tends to run away with itself. There's still so much feeling about it, largely because this country has never come to terms with it and with its legacy. It's tough to keep control of it.

I think it's very important for your generation to learn about it - perhaps yours will be the generation that puts it to rest at last.

[DinahMoeHum]

30. Get thee hence to your local library. . .

and look under the Dewey Decimal numbers 958 and 959.

At bare minimum, you should read the following texts:

Bernard Fall: Hell in a Very Small Place
Street Without Joy

David Halberstam: Vietnam - The Making of a Quagmire
The Best and The Brightest
(and everything else by this author)

Neil Sheehan: A Bright Shining Lie

Stanley Karnow: Vietnam - A History

William J. Lederer: Our Own Worst Enemy
(co-author of The Ugly American)

The Time-Life series on Vietnam (sepia-colored with lots of pictures)


Good luck and good hunting.

:smoke: