Being Called "Hard Left" After So Many Years On DU Of Being Called "DLC'er" Is Pretty Funny

[KittyWampus]

And it's based on wanting the FULL TRUTH of the financial crimes and misdeeds to be brought to light.

I was able to accept not prosecuting the Bush Administration for War Crimes by hoping for a Truth and Reconciliation Hearing. The USA won't even get that.

FINE.

But to allow those who engineered this financial meltdown to remain and the scope of their misdeeds to go unplumbed. To try and sweep it all under the rug. To pretend toxic assets are really worth something and help all those who didn't engage in due diligence to profit. For them to KEEP their ill-gotten gains.

Allowing all that, be design, means we may be able to stumble along for a short time longer. But it just means the final collapse will be that much more difficult.

The amount of energy required to live in denial is huge. It blocks true progress and sucks up energy that can be used for real change.

The very Foundation of our Economy needs to be adjusted. This isn't just a matter of slapping on a coat of new regulatory paint.

[rfranklin]

1. The center moved right when you weren't looking....

I have become a Trotskite myself.

[Pale Blue Dot]

2. Last week I was told that I must have voted for McCain.

It's much easier to name call then to defend their position, because frankly, there is no defense.

[The Magistrate]

3. It Remains The Case, Ma'am

That accusing popular elected Democrats of shielding and colluding with Republican criminals is a staple of hard left commentary, from 'counterpunch' to 'z-mag' and beyond. It is quite possible to disagree about policy and any course of action without resort to such destructive motifs. President Obama's course on the derivatives calamity is not much to my taste either, but that does not move me to accuse him of deliberate wrong-doing. It is much easier to recommend a radical course when one bears no responsibility for the outcome of such actions.

[wyldwolf]

4. good post

[dionysus]

42. holy crap... i agree with both wyldwolf and the magistrate in the same friggin thread... what is DU

coming to?

:rofl:

[KittyWampus]

5. The truth isn't Left or Right. There is an historical record. And denying reality ALWAYS

results in a greater moment of reckoning later on.

It's a matter of Action ----> Consequence.

You don't confront an alcoholic now, they will keep driving til they kill someone.

You don't get fix the crumbling foundation, the building eventually collapses.

You don't punish a teenager, they keep going til they get arrested or overdose or get AIDS.

You don't hold criminals liable and shine a light on their misdeeds, they'll come back with greater force.

[ShortnFiery]

7. But "The Truth" often has a decidedly LIBERAL bias. :-) nt.

[Pale Blue Dot]

10. Great post. nt

[Dr.Phool]

45. It's the rule of law.

There isn't any. Not anymore.

[mkultra]

48. its "a historical" and frankly the toxic debt buy up is exactly what we need

i don't really care if some greedy bastards get more than they where suppose to. The two major economic failures that have have occurred historically where all buoyed with this dual pronged approach.


when the economy is down, little people lose their jobs. people go hungry. The Great Depression was a complete shit hole. In case you dont know about it, read a book. When Giehtner uses the rest of the TARP money to buy up toxic debt(as the bill requires) and save failing mortgages, the fed will buy up T-bonds. These two actions will restart the economy NOW. As in this year. In case you haven't been paying attention, the DOW has already found its bottom and is climbing.


Buckle up. This mess is about to be cleared up in under 100 days. Then you'll have to look real hard to find people that give a damn about your bullshit.

[depakid]

51. "This mess is about to be cleared up in under 100 days."

:rofl:

The best Obama and the Senate "Demorats" are going to be able to do is slow the rate of decline toward third world status.

[mkultra]

52. im guessing you dont know a damn thing about 30 year bonds then

[depakid]

56. I know enough macro and poly sci to understand that the mess in the US is sturctural and systemic

and cannot and will not be dealt with by the current folks in power- and that's based both on the nature of the political and financial system in the states, as well as on the evidence and policy proposals thus far.

[mkultra]

57. thats pretty general. sounds like you took some crappy survey class

are these thoughts your own or are you just regurgitating some ideological fruitard? Since the banks have been bailed and toxic debt is being bought, they have plenty money to loan. Do you happen to know why they aren't loaning money then? lets revisit your macro=economics. Do try to remember that macro is just a single school of economic thought.

[depakid]

60. Actually- neoclassical macro is one narrrow school of thought

Multi-disciplinary approaches that incorporate constitutional law and political science (or trans-disciplines and/or systems sciences) in "the equation" is where I derive the picture of where the US is going - and that trend is downward.

Sone specific reasons:

Money is equated with free speech- and its corrupting political influence can't be ameliorated without a supermajority via the constitutional amendment process. I suppose that if about justices were replaced by progressives, Buckly v. Valeo might might be over ruled- and Congress might pass public finance for elections, but I wouldn't count on that. Bottom line is that antiquated politcal system in the states cannot respond to feedback in a timely manner- and put policies in place to solve problems as they arise.

In addition, gini coefficients (income inequality) will continue to increase (they already approach 3rd world levels).

You will NEVER get universal health care- thus saddling your socity with gross inefficiencies.

You will likely never get responsible media re-regulation either- which means that your citizens will remain and grow ever more misformed, and subject to manipulation and concealment of major issues.

Nor will get adequate financial and consumer regulation- Congress and the administraive agencieslack the political will and fortitude to take on the entrenched interests- and with no accuare and accountable media to expose the system side abuses, they'll simply continue- less abhorrant than they were, yet still costly for the greatest number- and overall, and still dysfunctional.

America's suburban service economies are unsustainable in the face of the inexorable rise on petroleum prices- and your manufacturing base has degraded to the point where- as was just admitted- those jobs aren't coming back.

So yep- the signs all point to third world status, not as quickly as under Republican rule, but just as surely.

[mkultra]

61. A bag of clank

first up, Your using the gini coefficient incorrectly. It should be noted that the GINI for the us has stayed nearly flat if only slightly rising compared to other countries. Since its a comparison of ratios, it more correctly measure overall wealth of a country. It CANNOT be used to judge equal access to rights of various classes. Since the gin is based on the area of lorenze curves, these curves can have vastly different shapes.

In summary, Your using this metric wrong.(if you need a further explanation regarding why, ill explain it)

Second, Universal health care may not be as necessary as health care for those less fortunate, which is possible.

regulating the media is, in effect, unconstitutional. Yes, it will never happen. Its a right.

we have show man times that we are interested and able to regulate industry of every sort. The US government may run behind need, but this is to be expected in a fast moving economy that develops new products daily. get over it.

All failures brought on by dependence in foriegn oil can be rectified by the natural migration to more equitable forms of energy. Im sure you have heard people say that those jobs WILL be replaced by "green jobs." Thats what is meant.

America will never be third world again unless we let our economy slide into a multi-decade long economic depression.






The simply answer to my question above is profit. Unless you want to scrap the whole capitalism thing and start over ala revolution, then we are stuck with this system. Stay on target Red 5.

[depakid]

63. umm, no- the gini hasn't been flat!

Follow the basic trend line:


(data plotted only through 2001- but trend has continued)

Most developed European nations and Canada tend to have Gini indices between 24 and 36, the United States' and Mexico's Gini indices are both above 40, indicating that the United States and higher still- Mexico have greater (and rising) inequality. That's third world stuff.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Economics_Gini_coefficient.svg

Of course- this is a measure of dispersion over the range- and illustrative of the nature of things like social safety nets (or the lack thereof) the nature of progressive taxation, or executive- or "upper class" compensation vs. average worker pay, etc).

If you want to look at quintiles- or some similar measure- and see how many fall into subgroups- which ones have been losing ground and and which ones have been gaining you'll see the same trend. 4 of the 5 income quintiles are losing ground i.e., taking home a smaller slice of the economic pie -while the relatively few in the highest are the only ones gaining.

As to your statement about universal healthcare- that's essentially denying the gross inefficies of the US's fragmented system- in which far too health care dollars aren't aimed at "producing health," but instead are eaten up by excessive administrative costs, marketing, adverse selection -and outright efforts to deny people care (a negative use of resources in terms of producing health).

It's also denying most Americans' strong aversion to entitlement program (rugged individualism, "personal responsibility" and Meism vs. the previling isdea of a social contract, which is found in other western nations.

Since it's you know nothing at all about law and media regulaion, no sense in going there- other than to say- read the cases and administrative rules from the days when the country actually had media accountability- rather than a culture of lies, ineptitude, and what amounts to hate speech.

Bottom line is that when the literature of "decline and fall" -or collapse, the trends one sees on a whole host of matters is exactly what what expect to see -and what's played out many, many times before.

[mkultra]

65. your data is wrong and your still using gini wrong

Gini coefficients do include income gained from wealth; however, the Gini coefficient is used to measure net income more than net worth, which can be misinterpreted. For example, Sweden has a low Gini coefficient for income distribution and a higher Gini coefficient for wealth (the wealth inequality is low by international standards, but still significant: 5% of Swedish household shareholders hold 77% of the share value owned by households)<7>. In other words, the Gini income coefficient should not be interpreted as measuring effective egalitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient


Not sure where your chart comes from but here:

[DevonRex]

13. Bless you. We need your rational voice here.

You have brought tears of relief to my eyes today.

[Runcible Spoon]

38. Wow if that is true you are pretty unbalanced.

:nuke:

[Jennicut]

16. Magistrate, thank you for your clear eyed view on this

Awesome post!

[mix]

19. "Deliberate wrong-doing," maybe not

but Obama is part of political class, democratic and republican, bereft of ideas and unable to move beyond the neo-liberal paradigm that has plagued our country since 1980.

Economic matters aside, the one area where Obama does appear to be colluding with criminals is on the question of war crimes/torture. Without the will or courage to hold criminals responsible, Obama is perpetuating the rot.

[DevonRex]

21. But this is about the thread accusing Obama of deliberate wrongdoing.

[mix]

24. no, it's a thread about people attacking others for criticizing the President n/t

[DevonRex]

26. You apparently missed the locked thread, to which this OP refers.

[lostnotforgotten]

28. Are Geithner And Summers Still On The Job?

eom

[Forkboy]

32. Anarchy is great, but who'll suck the septic tanks?

Good to see you back, my friend.

[mkultra]

49. i hear the anarchists tried to have a meetign but they couldnt get organized

[Political Heretic]

33. One small quibble Magistrate:

I appreciate your balancing comments. But let me take small issue - I cringe at some of the comments about the President particularly when they make assumptions about motives that no one can possibly substantiate. In fact I'll go one further and suggest that we've have enough opportunities to really glimpse into the heart and mind of what this man feels and things that it seems to take a greater act of will to assume clear bad motives and willful "evil" intent than it does to assume the contrary.

However, about the commentary from the "hard left." Let us not accidentally ignore all instances where elected Democrats sellout their constituencies and collude with either republicans, corporate lobbyists, or other private interests against the best interests of the public, and certainly against the better ideals of the history of the Democratic party. This does happen.

The "hard lefts" flaw is potentially "seeing demons everywhere" which can cause them to become discredited voices. But us responsible critics have to be careful not to dismiss all critical scrutiny of these kinds of relationships among national political figures because they do exist and such collusion do happen, and we all know this. I don't mean know it as in we "believe it." I mean know it as in, it gets written about, documented and demonstrated often after the fact.

The biggest problem with "hard left commentary" as you describe it is not that it is never right. It's that it has an inappropriately narrow binary view of the world, so that it ends up being "wrong" as much as it is "right." That's a shame, because we could all stand to be talking a little bit more about the times when it is right than we usually do.....

[mkultra]

53. let us also be vigilant of those trolls who claim to be "to left for this board"

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Ah the dangers of form over function

A calamity is not to anyone's taste.

The definition is as follows:a state of deep distress or misery caused by major misfortune or loss.

Glad to hear that misery and major misfortune are not to your taste. Such a bold statement.

[ColesCountyDem]

64. Well and succinctly put, Your Honor!

:thumbsup:

[Lerkfish]

6. its not about you.

one of the hardest things to accept around here (and something I sruggle with, at times), is that things are simply not about ourselves every time.
If you've been labeled one way and then another way on another issue, is simply a reflection of where some people stand on the issue. It doesn't mean either they or you are being inconsistent. People feel differently about different issues, and People can sometimes change their minds or adapt to different variables.

now, to the actual issue:

I personally felt TARP was a giant dropping of a palette of millions of unmarked bills that was destined to disappear as soon as it hit the ground, just like what happened in Iraq.
If a structure is imperfect at managing money, throwing more money at the same structure is destined for failure.

I said back then, and I say now: the money should have been used to pay off bad mortgages -- that way ALL the money fixes bad paper, people aren't thrown out on the street, banks can still lend, and the skimming off the top by CEOs would never have occurred. The difference between what I suggest and what was done is that in both cases, one group unfairly benefits: In THEIR scenario, CEOS who already have money unfairly benefit, in my scenario those about to default on loans unfairly benefit.
But at least in my scenario, that money immediately redistributes in the system and generates more consumerism. In their scenario, the system begins to starve itself and the money is siphoned off into blank and hidden accounts in the Caymans and does not redistribute in the economy.

In the long run, my scenario, though also flawed, would have benefited the country better.

[truedelphi]

31. I think that your scenario is far less flawed than the one

That Geithner is bringing us.

If it is true that the Bailout and Toxic Asset Purchase plans etc have totaled 2.9 Trillion (A number used by several Democratic Senators on Tuesday night) then evey American now has to earn an additional $ 2,000 or so just to keep up with the inflation. And might not see much in the way of help.

But even scarier - we saw in the nineties that the Bailout offered the Mexican Bankers, a mere Twenty Billion dollars, pretty much overnight devalued the wages of the Average Mexican Worker. it led to the plight of family farmers needing to abandon their farms and come north.

We are inflating our economy with this 2.9 Trillion, and what will that do to our wage base over the next year? AN economic law does not work differently from on one side of the border than the other.

Just as the Workers in Mexico had their wages tumble, so shall we see that here.

Why didn't they just disperse the money to each of us individually? I know, the experts say that that would not have done as much good, but the flaws now coming to light in each and every "plan" offered us by Geithner make it seem that offering the money mostly to banks and investors is not going to accomplish a lot either.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. Lets Start A Club

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8320035&mesg_id=8320035

[liberalmuse]

9. I wouldn't characterize...

the people criticizing President Obama incessantly as 'the hard left'. Lately, a lot of posts on DU would be indiscernable from the outright shit posted at FR.

[Gregorian]

11. We're so far to the right today that we can't even see the left.

I honestly don't think very many people have the slightest clue what is going on with this economic hijack. I don't. But I'm listening to people who do, and it's systemic. We have been robbed.

Thank you Margaret Thatcher.



I might as well add this-

Economies are based on resources. Resources are made scarce by population increase. The planet is essentially out of oil, the prime mover of economies today. Therefore...

[iamthebandfanman]

12. its called 'people on DU think they know everything'

dont sweet it.

if you dont agree 100% , youll be called something....


sad that being called 'hard left' is now an insult on DU.


oh how times they are a changing...

i fear for my party.

[eridani]

40. I know more than Geithner and Summers

I said, along with plenty of economists, that the deregulation spree of the late 90s was a really bad idea. I was right. They were wrong. Not that I have the formal credentials to replace either, but there are many who do. We need people who were right about deregulation to replace Obama's economic team, ASAP.

[mkultra]

50. have you looked at the dow recently Mr. Finance?

[eridani]

58. I'm much more concerned with the real world

10% of the population owns 90% of stock, and they are the ones who are trashing the real economy. when family incomes don't allow discretionary speding, what the stock market does is irrelevant.

[Hawkowl]

62. You just lost all your credibility

The DOW does not represent the entire economy. Considering that the top 10% income receivers (not earners) own 75% of the DOW. Jimminy crickets, the real economy is the 15% U6 unemployment figures that is preventing recovery. The economy is a pyramid built on wage earners who make things. Stop making things, stop earning wages, stop buying things, and the economy collapses, (along with the DOW).

[tavalon]

14. Trust me, many of us would see the moniker "hard left" as a compliment

DLC, not so much. Not at all, actually.

[TheKentuckian]

15. The "hard left" in America is probably smaller in number the actual number of people in charge

It's like a couple dozen people that have been on the watch list so long that DK thinks they are a threat to national security.

It is just an American thing, we're the most conservative of the so called liberal democracies (minus Turkey or perhaps Israel, I reckon) and have been for a while.

[DevonRex]

17. Doesn't matter to me if the person claiming Obama is a criminal or is covering up crimes

is hard left, hard right or is really a purple pig from Pluto.

[lostnotforgotten]

27. So Devon - What Does Matter To You - Can You Spell It Out In Terms We All Can Understand?

eom

[mkultra]

54. ill help here

reason and logic. If someone rails against this administration in a ridiculous and unreasonable manner by using distortion or demagoguery, then no matter what they "call" themselves, id rather see them gone from the board.

before you twist, consider each word.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

20. Deliberate insults don't add to the discussion.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

23. Apparently not.

[lostnotforgotten]

25. Well I Will Continue To Use The Moniker

eom

[bvar22]

29. I' m unaware of a "Hard Left" at DU.

I have never observed any DUer demand that all private property be confiscated, and everybody organized into "collectives".

When polled on the issues the majority of Americans (Democrats & Republicans) agree with Dennis Kucinich.

I'm a Moderate, though well to the Left of Obama.
Here is where I STAND.

*Bring our troops home from the Middle East and end the illegal occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

*Cut "Defense" spending by 50%

*Remove the age restrictions to MediCare (HR 676)

*Protect SS by removing the cap

*FREE Universal Quality Education through Graduate School for anyone who wants it

*Break up Corporations that are "too big to fail" into manageable pieces

*Level the playing field so that Mom & Pop (small locally owned business) can compete with Big Boxes

*Equal Rights and Equal Protection for everyone...NO exceptions (This means full legal privileges for Gays...and everyone else.)

*Prosecution of the Bush War Criminals

*Re-regulate or Nationalize Banking, Lending, Investment, Transportation, Energy, Communications

* Trade Policies that favor LABOR in America (Yes, some things are worth "protecting")

*Reinstitute and strengthening the Social Programs that protect the the vulnerable.

[DKRC]

30. Yes, on every point!

:thumbsup:

[Forkboy]

34. Nice post, Chavez.

;)

[Jakes Progress]

36. Yes, those who yelp "Hard Left"

every time they post are historically challenged. They do not know what the real left movement of the 30's and 40's was about. They don't know what went on to give them the latte rights they enjoy now. They glibly tolerate gays or people of other races and think that makes them progressive. It often seems that most here are a little right of any historical version of center.

You should number your points so we can all the the slightly left dozen basic elements of DU.

[Dr.Phool]

46. Did I change my name, and forget about it?

Sounds exactly like something I'd say.

[Runcible Spoon]

47. Americans have NO IDEA what "hard left" is.

99% have probably never even met one in their entire lives.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

35. If it were up to me there would be no stock markets

I would want a brand new system.

A system that would be fair and take up the world's starving and human rights violations. A world government body that would address these issues. Why would we want an 'obese nation with everything' and other nations of skin and bones?

[Danger Mouse]

37. You hard left DLC'er!!!

There, happy?

[grantcart]

39. Kitty I think you heard it wrong

I think somebody was saying that you "left them hard" not that you were "hard left".

[leftofthedial]

43. On the economy, the "center" has moved rightward,

all the way from DC to Wall Street.

Also, if you are critical in the slightest of any Obama act or decision, you will be called names. Lately, "hard left" seems to be the worst they can think of, which shows where they come from.

[terisan]

44. Some of the people are struggling against accepting the facts of the duplicity. nt

[stillcool]

55. I find all these accusations and labels..

tiresome, and depressing, but.... I would love to understand how the global financial institutions work..how far the system goes back, who the titans of finance are..what are their names? Not the board members, not the worker bees, but the major stock holders. What other industries are they invested in? How much do they own, in which countries? What leverage do they have? And while we're at it, does our military work for them?

[mkultra]

59. all this internet talkety talk has got me plum tuckered out.