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Help: I've read the motion, watched Keith - I need some links to arguments FOR DOJ position

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 06:31 AM
Original message
Help: I've read the motion, watched Keith - I need some links to arguments FOR DOJ position
I don't have enough information on the arguments FOR making this motion. DU threads are fine, but any links to commentary by legal analysts would also be much appreciated.

Thanks.

(I don't have an opinion yet.)
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Throwing the baby out with the bath water
I am sensitive to the problem the DOJ and Obama has here. They inherited a real, stinking, mess. In cleaning it up they'd rather not do real, permanent damage to the institution of the presidency and the executive branch. Tearing open this bag of worms could expose more than just the illegal crap. And it could make it more difficult to keep the wraps on future, legitimate and legal, activities in the future. In essence, it will create the standard that classified stuff has to be exposed in order to ensure it is legal. But if you do that, it is in essence, not a secret anymore.

I don't really support the DoJ here. The solution is not to do this crap in the first place. And there should be the threat that if you screw up this bad, yes you can also screw up otherwise "legitimate" activities. The Constitution doesn't really define the relationship of the People to the otherwise classified information the government would like to keep. There needs to be some "balance of power" between the three branches in this area and up until now, the Legislature and the Courts have felt the need to show extreme deference to the Executive Branch on these issues. I think that is a mistake and a violation of the very concept of the three branches of government.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. That sounds extremely sensible to me
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wolfgirl Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hubby & I were talking
last nite about all this. Somehow I feel there is more going on w/this than meets the eye.
I say this because of the recent dust up over the idea that was floated about Veteran's private insurance being tapped to cover service related expenses at VA. I don't ever remember hearing any such idea being fostered by Obama during the campaign. So I was completely taken aback when that notion was trotted out as a possibility.

{As background, I've worked with VA for 20+ years and believe me, the idea of charging a Vet's private insurance company for service related expenses has been a GOP push for years, but never something that was from Dems. I personally hated the thought that Vet's should have to pony up after serving their Country for any of their care.)

Anyway, as soon as this idea started being discussed in the media, Vet groups and others (including some GOP) began to come out in very vocal & fierce opposition. The result of that opposition - Obama announced that no such plan would be implemented. But ya know, I don't believe that was ever a serious plan on Obama's part. I think this was a strategic plan to put the idea out there for all to discuss, let the Vets and others come out in strong opposition
This idea now has no where to go and how would the GOP try to bring it back up as an alternative in the future?

Back to the DOJ business, hubby thinks that what may be happening is actually another run around on the GOP - Obama is letting the Courts rule on the matter. Everyone knows Obama is a constitutional scholar, he must know how the court is going to rule...so he lets 'em. Then what does the GOP do?

Anyway...I'm reserving judgment on this till I know more. I believe in Obama and it's way too soon to think he has abandoned us or his principles.



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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Whatever Geocities website Alberto Gonzales has now
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. Check out this
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Aloha Spirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. That was very useful.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yeah... I just responded to that. I have mixed feelings.
Responded in the other thread.
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. Daily KOS has an interesting diary by a lawyer talking about this
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/8/717799/-DOJ-and-the-FISA-Lawsuit:-The-Lawyers-are-Doing-Their-Job

Fact #1: This is a civil lawsuit for money damages and/or equitable relief. Plain and simple, the Plaintiff seeks monetary damages against the Defendants. I.e., you committed a wrong, and the only way to make up for that wrong is pay money. Or in the alternative, it seeks equitable relief -- i.e., an injunction -- to prevent a future wrong.

Fact #2: The Motion to Dismiss was filed by the government Defendants in their official capacity. Two important points here. First, this is a Motion to Dismiss claims, or in the alternative, for summary judgment. I can tell you as a matter of legal practice, any time a government is sued, there is a Motion to Dismiss filed, primarily to see if you can "knock out" at least some of the claims, or if you get lucky, the whole lawsuit. Second, the "official capacity" part is key. Simply stated, DOJ is moving to dismiss Defendants "The United States of America," "President Barack Obama," "Attorney General Eric Holder," etc. in their official capacity. Official capacity is just like it sounds...you've been sued by virtue of the fact that a. you are a government agency or b. you work for that government agency in some official way.

Fact #3: As a general rule, governments and government official have immunity for acts in their official capacity. This is nothing new. It is the concept of "sovereign immunity" which has been around for hundreds of years. The general rule is established so that Joe Blow cannot simply "sue the government" for every perceived wrong that government does, because it would not be in the public interest for ALL for the government, as an entity, to have to defend said lawsuits or pay out damages in its official capacity. However, and this is critical, this does NOT mean a Plaintiff can't sue a government employee for wrongful acts committed in the scope of their employment in their personal capacity. Indeed, in the lawsuit at hand, DOJ makes clear that they are filing this Motion for the government Defendants sued in their official capacity, despite the fact that many, many more are sued in their official capacity. Keep in mind, there are immunities available to those in their personal capacity as well, which DOJ also raises. But those immunities are generally not as strong as the immunity provided for those acting in an official capacity.

Fact #4: Asserting a defense in a lawsuit does not in any way equate official government policy. Trust me on this one. I've had to assert defenses to lawsuits early on in the stages of litigation, as is the case in the FISA lawsuit. And it does NOT mean in any way that it is some sort of policy declaration. It is doing what is necessary to defend my client from the relief sought by the Plaintiff. Plain and simple. And that is especially true at the Motion to Dismiss stage. Indeed, these issues are going to be litigated not only at the trial stage, but at the appellate stage. And believe me, DOJ is going to continue argue immunities, because that's their job. Not only in this lawsuit but in all future lawsuits. It is their job not to create policy, but to defend their client. They are not simply going to roll over and say, "OK, you win, we'll pay you a truckload of money." Not going to happen. And certainly not going to happen at this early stage of the game.


More at the link
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Some ideas about reasons are also posted here
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks - new stuff.
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Just wanted to thank you for such a sensible thread
Specially since it has also provided us with a lot of useful information
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Obama DOJ wants to lose in court. That way the right
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 03:05 PM by quiller4
thing is accomplished but the administration hasn't alienated the intelligence community.
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lordcommander Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. PLEASE!!!!! STOP MAKING SENSE!!!!!!!!
;-)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Read the motion
And then the complaint.

Keith doesn't have the time to understand this stuff.

Just looking at the motion makes it obvious that no opinion on this stuff can be based on superficial news reports.
http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewelmtdobama.pdf

Look at all the cases cited, too.

Then read the plaintiff's responses, which must be out there somewhere.

There are dozens of legal issues there. Not good fodder for DU which prefers simplicity.
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