What is your Opinion of Ralph Nader?

[MadBadger]

Poll question: What is your Opinion of Ralph Nader?

[Jennicut]

1. I think he may have some good ideas now and then

but his huge ego got in the way of whatever message he wanted to send.

[960]

120. Yes. I'll agree with that.

[NMDemDist2]

2. narcissist ass is my take

YMMV

[WeDidIt]

3. I think he's more responsible for the Bush era than Bush, and...

only slightly less responsible for the Bush era than Cheney.

[frylock]

51. i thinks that's the stupidest shit i've ever read on this site..

and that's really sayin a lot. i think pink tutu bipartisan bullshit corporocrats were more responsible for the bush era than you'd like to believe.

[avaistheone1]

68. Bravo. I agree.

That bipartisanship thingy hasn't got us very far.

[Romulox]

71. +1. nt

[WeDidIt]

81. Take every Republican and Demcoratic Congresscritter from the past eight years

line em all up,...

and Ralph Nader is personally more responsible for the Bush era than all of them combined.

Nobody in Congress threw the 2000 election over an ego trip.

Nader did.

[frylock]

91. explain to me how nader was responsible for purging the voter rolls of mostly black democrats..

you should educate yourself on the issue. watch fahrenheit 911 and see how your beloved democrats chucked the CBC under the bus. read a little greg palast. your narrow minded nader hating may be popular around here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're dead fucking wrong. your hyperbolic bullshit post shows that you simply don't know jack about crap.

[WeDidIt]

111. Tell me how campaigning against the Democratic Candidate in Florida

didn't sway 535 people to vote against Gore.

[frylock]

118. wow. a whole 535 people..

a drop in the bucket compared to the THOUSANDS of disenfranchised voters that gore never went to bat for. moreover, gore couldn't even win his own HOME STATE!! it was arguably the worst campaign ever run with the worst VP candidate ever, but please do continue to rationalize your hatred.

[WeDidIt]

123. And if Nader wasn't in the picture

Gore would have won.

There was no way Nader could have won, ergo, his entire candidacy was an excercise in egotism.

Nader is personally responsible for Bush

[frylock]

125. and if my aunt had nads, she'd be my uncle..

did Nader prevent Gore from winning in tennessee?! i want you to stop and think about what you're saying. what you're advocating for is that only the two-party system should be eligible for election. i think what we're finally seeing is that Nader was petty much right; Gore may not have been the same or worse than bush, but the Democratic and republican parties really aren't much different at all. the Dems just happen to be a kinder and gentler corpocracy.

i'm sorry that you're too obtuse to understand that what you're claiming, that Nader is soley responsible for the last 8 years, is so much ignorant bullshit. of course, you could also just be a troll looking to push some buttons. in any case, i'm through trying to educate you, so by all means, continue to stumble through your monochromatic world. feel free to get in one last dig if you're so inclined.

[WeDidIt]

141. NAder is DIRECTLY responsible for the Bush Era

No amount of youtr spinning the fact will alter it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

143. Bullshit.

Your "535 votes for Nader" is buried under the 90,000 votes stolen by Jeb Bush and Cruella Harris. And all the Jews who voted for anti semite Pat Buchanan, because a REPUKE who conveniently became a DLC "Democrat" just in time to submit her fucked up butterfly ballot to the Palm Beach county auditors office.

Fraud and theft beat Gore in Florida, from the day Cruella plugged in her Choice Point database, to the day that five Bush Crime Family appointees to the Supreme Court cancelled the vote counting.

End of story. End of DLC "Nader" myth.

[WeDidIt]

144. And NAder allowed it to get close enough for stealing

In my book, I will always HATE NAder more than Bush.

Nader is a fuckwad. I wouldn't piss on the asshole if he was on fire.

[Sebastian Doyle]

145. Can you use a calculator?

What's 90,000 - 535?

Nader's votes meant nothing in the face of all the fraud before, during, and after election day.

This "blame Nader" meme was floated by the DLC because (for some odd reason) they don't want to talk about election fraud.

[elleng]

4. He's been correct about what's going on forever.

Fortunately he's put his ideas to work; otherwise we would have lost more than we already have.

[avaistheone1]

49. Nader has been correct on all the issues.

He is a visionary. Nader has not been bought by the corporations, and that upsets some people.

[elleng]

56. It seems to upset a LOT of people!

.

[depakid]

66. And most of them not very bright

[avaistheone1]

67. True. A lot of people can't handle the truth.

It can be an inconvenient thing.

[WeDidIt]

88. NAder is owned by his corporate stock holdings

NAder sold out decades ago.

He's been on an ego trip ever since.

[avaistheone1]

97. Please explain. How can Nader be owned by his corporate stock holdings. You are not making any sense

[WeDidIt]

110. Nader doesn't criticize any corporation eh holds stock in. n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

130. sounds like every other politician then

so whats your point?

[Luminous Animal]

148. Really? Prove it. (n.t.)

[Freddie Stubbs]

115. Was he correct he said that there was not "a dime's worth of difference" between Bush and Gore?

:shrug:

[Luminous Animal]

146. He never said that...

That was George Wallace's line in '68. Any comparison that Nader made between Republicans and Democrats was addressed to both parties being beholden to corporate interests. I can't argue with that.

[YOY]

5. I think if we had a multiparty (more than two) system he'd be just fine.

but we don't and he knows we don't so fuck him for giving America to Faschists in 2000 and 2004.

Kind of like those people who fuck it up for everyone because they want to do something impossible "for the principle of it."

[Romulox]

72. Yep. People with principles are ASSHOLES!

:rofl:

[YOY]

75. No. People who do things "for the principle of it" at everyone's expense are ASSHOLES.

Or did I say something else?

[Romulox]

78. Does that apply to the corporate friendly policies pushed by Al Gore?

Cause he pushed for hard for NAFTA "at everyone's expense".

[YOY]

79. Funny. I felt no pain.

Nader however is one of the reasons why GWB was in power.

[Romulox]

102. What a disgusting response. You've got yours, so to hell with everyone else, eh?

:puke:

[YOY]

104. Wow.. You are really extrapolating a lot there. I have no idea how you did it.

Please, no sarcasm or any nasty intention. Just stop now. You're either purposefully taking me out of context, sorely mistaken, or insane by keeping up this attack.

[Romulox]

107. I say: "NAFTA [was at] everyone's expense". You say: "Funny, I felt no pain".

That's the context, and the message seems perfectly clear to me. :hi:

[YOY]

112. No it wasn't. Because Gore was never elected.

He never had the opportunity to enact this because he only would have if he had been elected and we'll never even know if he would have because he wasn't. Perhaps he would have recinded upon failure of NAFTA...and it has cost the Democratic party our labor base by supporting it. They have to know this.

Nader on the other had did run. Despite the impossibility of his campaign he ran none-the-less on principals. His "principals" did cost us the 2000 election at the entire country's expense (aside from Diebold, Florida's State Government's decisions, Republican intervention, and the Supreme Court, etc...

Unless of course you are providing this as the reason why Gore lost to Bush in 2000 over my (and many others here) reasoning that Nader thrown in the mix was draining from the Democratic base. In which case I agree to disagree but it surely isn't the most "disgusting" and/or "selfish" move I ever have done.

[Romulox]

114. Remember when Gore was VP? Yeah, he was the point man for the NAFTA PR campaign

He has never repudiated his support for that position, to this day.

"Unless of course you are providing this as the reason why Gore lost to Bush in 2000 over my (and many others here) reasoning that Nader thrown in the mix was draining from the Democratic base. In which case I agree to disagree but it surely isn't the most "disgusting" and/or "selfish" move I ever have done."

Um, that's precisely what I am arguing. On economics, Al Gore provided little to no contrast to W. Bush, which left him vulnerable to a third party challenger. :hi:

[YOY]

116. I wouldn't call it "little or no" difference. At least at the time it may have seemed such.

On a more recent note: The fate of NAFTA is one of the judgement calls I personally am going to make on Obama in 8 years. He claims to be willing to correct himself when on the wrong course. Any responsible leader should be actually but the Republicans assume responsibilty for others. NAFTA is the wrong course. We shall see.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

132. Seems to me you are saying

that standing by ones principals makes them assholes.

[YOY]

139. Only when doing so when there can be no positve outcome and it will affects others negatively.

n/t

[trumad]

6. Fuck Nader

[PBS Poll-435]

7. Attention Whore

Thanks for the airbags, Ralph.

But please stop being you.



Find a hobby. Get a job. Something.

[DevonRex]

14. Seconded. nt

[BobRossi]

17. He killed a great little car.

I loved Corvairs!

[avaistheone1]

32. The car was a killer.

:banghead:

[dionysus]

40. see post 11...

[quiller4]

119. No more so than most of the other cars on the road at the time.

In fact the car had a better safety record than many. Nader has never let facts get in the way of one of his campaigns.

[Luminous Animal]

147. Yeah. That's why there were over a hundred lawsuits

from accident victims and he garnered much of his information from these lawsuits.?

But the book was NOT about the Corvair. The Corvair highlighted in one chapter out of eight and was used as an illustration of how the auto industry hid design flaws and safety records. And Nader was right. No doubt he could have written the book about a number of other cars but why

[mac56]

136. me too

The perfect car for Minnesota winters.

[avaistheone1]

70. Yep. They are all attention whores Nader, Clinton, Obama, Oprah.

Any one who gets a lot of media coverage could be smeared with that label.

[cali]

8. A poster child for NPD.

[AtomicKitten]

9. Ralph eats paste.

[vaberella]

10. Much like everyone else who posted...I'm anti-Nader. n/t

[TexasProgresive]

11. His original claim to fame-"Unsafe at any Speed"

started my unfavorable opinion of Mr. Nader. It is true that the 1961 Corvair was an unsafe design but when it was published in 1965 the safety issues had been corrected. His book destroyed the sales of that car. The problem with the 61 was the rear suspension which could cause one of the rear wheels to tuck under on an extreme turn causing the car to roll over. This was corrected by using a rear suspension like the Corvette.

I think it was disingenious of Nader to put out his book without making it clear that the original problem had been corrected in later models. This is just the kind of think that so many politicians and lawyers do- they highlight what they want us to see and cover up what they don't. I hate liars.

[Luminous Animal]

82. GM was aware of the dangers

of the 61-63 Corvairs and made the changes in '64, one year ahead of the publication of the book. The point of Chapter 1 (the chapter that addressed the Corvair) was not that the car was flawed but that GM knew about it and, in order to save money, hid the problem. It wasn't the "crime" that was the issue, it was the cover-up.

[TexasProgresive]

95. I agree the GM was wrong it's just that Nader never

acknowledged the fix and so the car died.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. He belongs in Arkham Asylum for the Criminally Insane. (nt)

[redqueen]

13. Well let's see... he takes money from wingers to defeat Dems...

and considering the fact that Dems are the only viable alternative to the pukes... well...

:think:

[Better Believe It]

25. John Kerry took money from Republicans to defeat Ralph Nader in 2004

It was a great victory! Nader lost!

Barack Obama also accepted millions of dollars in campaign donations from Republicans in 2008.

But, Obama was smarter than Kerry.

Obama didn't attack Ralph Nader during the 2008 election. He decided to use the Republican campaign donations to defeat John McCain.

Obama is smart.

John Kerry picking Leiberman as his running mate and decideing to spend millions of dollars to attack Ralph Nader was a fricken idiot!

[redqueen]

33. The difference is Nader never had a chance. (nt)

[hileeopnyn8d]

41. When did John Kerry pick Leiberman as his running mate?

[AtomicKitten]

58. Good grief! History whirled through a blender with a pinch of crazy.

n/t

[dionysus]

48. when did kerry spend millions against nader? link?

[AtomicKitten]

55. He didn't. Nader took money from the GOP in 2004.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/09/MNGQQ7J31K1.DTL

[dionysus]

59. oh, i know that... ;)

:hi:

[AtomicKitten]

61. Oy.

:crazy:

:hi:

[Reterr]

90. John Kerry picking Leiberman as his running mate

Don't toke and post...
And hey don't bother with trying to find even minor things to back up any of that stuff you just made up :crazy:

[LeftishBrit]

108. John Kerry picked Lieberman as his running mate in 2004???

That's a new one.

Reminds me of history essays by schoolchildren who haven't done their homework: "Henry the Sixth had eight wives", etc.

[murdoch]

137. Corporations back up the trucks to donate to Democrats

George Soros, Warren Buffett, Eric Schmidt etc. backed Obama. Obama even mentioned them in his debate with McCain, and some of them were in his big commercial before election day.

Biden is even worse, Biden is not only owned by the credit card companies, that goes without saying. Biden is a worse imperialist than Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld and company! At least when neo-nazis like Negroponte talk about invading countries, people see right through them. Biden cheerleads US imperialism with a lot of ca-ca about how we're spreading liberal values and other neo-con sounding nonsense. 21 Democratic Senators, plus Chafee and Jeffords voted against the October 2002 Iraq resolution, he voted for it.

How can you talk about how Nader took money from so-and-so when the Democrats have been wallowing in this dirty money for years?

[redqueen]

140. Because it's not the Democrats pretending to be above reproach.

That's Nader's act. It's not true, but apparently a few people still buy it, so what the hell. I guess I don't blame him for doing it. Hell of an ego trip.

He splits the left's vote. Until we have real electoral reform that's all he will ever do.


And p.s. sorry for kicking this, I didn't notice it'd died.

[grasswire]

15. He lied. The end. (eom)

[avaistheone1]

27. What did Nader supposedly lie about?

[dionysus]

39. Gore = Bush for starters....

[iamthebandfanman]

128. nah, back then

gore was alot like bush... minus the enviroment and going to war with iraq.
gore was just as corporate as anybody else...
until his corporate buddies in his own party left him for dead in 2000.

[BobRossi]

16. Somwhat lower than.......

A snake's ass.

[Sebastian Doyle]

18. Prior to the 2000 election, Ralph Nader did a lot of good for this country

He's still mostly correct in what he says about the direction this country is going, just wrong in his approach in addressing it (i.e. the vanity election campaigns)

In any case, he's contributed more good to this country than any member of the DLC ever has.

[PBS Poll-435]

19. Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Harold Ford

Yeah. I think they are > Uncle Ralph.

[Sebastian Doyle]

20. Harold Ford did something to benefit this country?

Uh, in which parallel universe.

[PBS Poll-435]

22. Gee. By being a reliable Dem in the House.

Then he was the target of a vicious, racist campaign via the Playboy ads during his run for US Senate.

[Sebastian Doyle]

28. Reliable Dem?

He is neither.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. Remember that time he lost an argument to a puppet?

http://www.hulu.com/watch/35464/late-night-with-conan-obrien-triumph-interviews-ralph-nader-91908

[SIMPLYB1980]

35. "He's blowing the roof on puppetry!" LOL!

[dionysus]

38. i was with you until you said harold ford...

:(

[PBS Poll-435]

42. Hey. He is/was a 45/55 centrist.

He is obviously a smart guy and I detest the racist campaign against him via the Corker Playboy ads.


The guy has a decent Democratic voting record.

[dionysus]

46. he's not evil, he just isn't my cup of tea is all...

[iamthebandfanman]

129. i agree

besides, sure he made the election be closer that it would have been... but he didnt cause the loss.

i hate when people blame the third party, as if they werent within their rights to run for office...

2000 changed a lot of things tho, as the election was clearly stolen... something that ralph would tell you too if you asked him...

he wasnt off base saying gore was a lot like bush, because they were(as far as corporate interests were concerned) , minus the war in the iraq and issues on the environment...

if 2000 hadnt happened, we wouldnt be enjoying this awakened Al Gore that we all love

[FrenchieCat]

23. He talks too White for me.

[baldguy]

24. What do you expect? He eats paste.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8331387#8331437

[redqueen]

34. ...

:thumbsup:


$#&% that egocentric assclown. Seriously.

[Occam Bandage]

47. +1

[Sebastian Doyle]

57. Who? Nader or Harold Ford?

:shrug:

[Clio the Leo]

26. You mean the guy who helped contribute to Gore's 2000 loss...

.... by ripping away moderate votes that might have otherwise voted democratic?

You really want to know the answer to that?

[Better Believe It]

30. Thanks for the correction. Until I read your post I thought the Republicans stole that election.

[Clio the Leo]

43. lol, WELL Mr. Snarky Pants ............

.... I think it's safe to say it was a variety of factors. :silly:

[Romulox]

74. You must REALLY be angry with Al Gore then. His crappy campaign is the #1 reason he lost, after all

[jeffrey_X]

77. Keep staying missinformed...

more registered democrats voted for Bush over Gore than voted for Nader.

[SKKY]

29. What do I think about Ralph Nader?

I don't. Period.

[Milspec]

31. Fucking nut case was missing

and I was a strong supporter of Nader in the 70's and 80's. Sad he has become such an attention *hound*

[TheCowsCameHome]

36. Unelectable at any speed

[dionysus]

37. where's the love for 'ol ralph?

:rofl:

[JayMusgrove]

44. Doesn't play politics well with others!!! my opinion.

And his obstanance was one of the contributing factors to giving us 8 years of GWB.

[Occam Bandage]

45. Sack of ego. The kind of person who likes masturbation more than sex. nt

[Uzybone]

80. perfect description

nt

[damonm]

50. He gave us Bush - that's enough for me.

[Cali_Democrat]

52. The word fuckhead comes to mind. (nt)

[apr09]

53. Partly because of Nader, we are where we are

In 2000, he equated Al Gore with George W. Bush.

Today, Gore holds the Nobel prize in peace while W stands discredited in America and the world for ruining the economy and getting us into a war based on lies.

[dionysus]

60. welcome to DU

:hi:

[frylock]

54. ralph nader -- the DU's clenis..

you haters need to read some palast for fuck's sake.

[depakid]

62. Nader got it right

Democrats.... not so much.

And to this day- still not so much. Basically, the lesser of two evils.

[Undercurrent]

63. He did?

Gore = Bush?

Sorry, but anyone who thinks that is true is not thinking clearly.

[depakid]

65. On deregulatory policy- you known the type that bought us the great recession?

And the California energy "crisis?"

There wasn't a DIME'S WORTH OF DIFFERENCE between the parties.

Lesser of two evils about the only reason to vote for a lot of Dems- and even that's not alway the case.

[frylock]

92. gore + lieberman..

lieberman for fucks sake.

[azmouse]

64. Fuck Nader.

I'm sick of him.

[burning rain]

69. A great Republican.

^

[Two Americas]

73. worst. president. ever.

Worse than Bush.

Worse than everything -

Worse than the right wing Supreme Court justices.

Worse than Fox news.

Worse then Rush Limbaugh.

He is the worst human being who has ever lived.


...

[jeffrey_X]

76. I'm amazed that so many people are too lazy to know Nader's full history

if you did, you wouldn't make such ignorant and stupid statements.

[MadBadger]

101. Umm. what the fuck did I do?

[BlooInBloo]

83. Fuck Nader. Fuck Nader voters.

[firedupdem]

84. yep

:thumbsup:

[Lyric]

85. He's an egotistical douchebag.

His good positions on issues do not negate this fact.

[Autumn]

86. I had to vote favorable. I liked him way back in the day

(like the 70s). Never would have voted for him for President. I just never thought he would make a good one. :shrug:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

87. If Ralph Nader had been born in Kenya, Bush would never have been president.

N.T.

[Reterr]

89. Unfavorable overall

He has done some good things, but he has been a real tool in the last decade or so...

[stillcool]

93. He was a great advocate...

and brought a lot of attention to what ails our country...but somehow he turned into a bitter man. Sometimes when you're ringing the alarm bell you have to be noisy any way you can, but I think his ambitions got the best of him.

[Fire1]

109. Ditto.

[PopSixSquish]

94. And the Horse He Rode in On

n/t

[bertman]

96. Almost every democratic nation in the world has more than two political parties.

But, here in the U.S. a brilliant, anti-corporate, workhorse of a consumer advocate decides to run for the presidency on the ticket of a "non-party" and he's accused of throwing an election.

What's scary is that so many Democrats have been brainwashed to believe that Nader cost Al Gore the '00 election. Pitiful.

[quakerboy]

98. I wish he would funnel his efforts to make a real difference.

When I see him getting congress people elected, senators, governors, or even state legislators, then I will consider him a true patriot. As our senate is quickly proving, you need more than just a president to govern.

With the level of support he has, he might actually be able to get a Congressman Elected. And that person could be pushing the discussion in a beneficial direction. But instead, Ralph has no seat at the table, and his ideology has no effect on what is happening today.

[tomreedtoon]

99. Egotistical, modern version of Robespierre.

Remember the guy from the French Revolution who was an insane ideologue, who sent his former friends to the guillotine and let the Terror destroy the country? That's Nader. Unfortunately, for him to go to the guillotine, America will have to be in flames.

[cherish44]

100. He sucks

I very much believe Gore would have been president if it had not been for Nader's being in the race. And we probably wouldn't be in this fucked up mess that we are not.

[omega minimo]

103. Your opinion of Nader depends on whether you use facts or not.

[jefferson_dem]

105. Nader was cool back in the day.

But he clearly should have retired from political life with dignity after 2000. Now...he's relegated himself to the role of dilapidated old ideological gadfly.

[mrs_p]

106. i used to really, really like him

now, i think he is a narcissist. why doesn't he run for local/state office and work his way up like every one else, instead of just running for president every four years? why the sense of entitlement?

[saltpoint]

113. Ralph's a real smart guy. But he rarely smiles.

He looks profoundly unhappy to me.

[Araxen]

117. He's a racist

[iamthebandfanman]

131. whoa, youre gonna hafta back that one up.

if youre gonna make that kind of an accusation, atleast post why you believe it...

[WI_DEM]

121. I think he could use a new hair style.

[Douglas Carpenter]

122. a GREAT man who made a few tragic errors in judgment

It is a case where having a very valid point - that the Democratic Party does not and probably never really has supported the kind of policies that most of their most committed backers support - thus many or most of the most ardent, committed and most faithful Democratic voters are voting for an illusion - not voting for the policies that they truly believe in.

Ralph Nader raises this issue. Certainly from anything remotely resembling a progressive perspective - his essential point in quite valid.

Still, the on the ground reality of how politics in the United States of America actually works - his run was a significant contributing factor toward the disastrous election of George W. Bush.

Was Eugene V. Debs wrong for running as a socialist instead of backing the Democratic candidates of his day - when he had no hope of winning and would only take votes from William Jennings Bryan or whoever else he was running against in his many campaigns? I'm sure many would would have said yes. But without Debbs and the early American Socialist Party, there probably would have never been a New Deal. Debs and the socialist raised issues that the Democratic Party were way too timid to touch.

Still, I would have to agree that given that the current Republican Party is now dominated by extremist who threaten the very tradition of western democracy itself and the peace of the entire world, it is necessary to make whatever compromises that are not completely intolerable for the sake of preventing these evil madmen from every taking power - including backing the far less than adequate and frequently treacherous Democratic Party. The cost is simply so great and the threat to humanity is so dear of allowing the right-wing to ever come to power. They must be thwarted by any means necessary - including dining with the devil himself.

[cherish44]

124. I have three family members who voted for Nader in 2000

idealists you know. They now admit how stupid it was but hindsight is 20/20 I guess

[TheKentuckian]

126. I'll go the somewhat unfavorable route

I hate to say that. I'd like to say Nader is a hero and a patriot and he certainly has been but I also feel his current efforts are utterly counter-productive, divisive, dangerous to country's future, a waste of energy, and a brake on momentum.

[iamthebandfanman]

127. love his issues

hate his personality.


his ego always gets in the way.


im starting to think hes right tho, as maybe it is impossible to change the democratic party from the inside...
thats why he took off thinking he was the lefts savoir in the first place, because he didnt think the left could get their issues pushed to the front of the line with the democratic party.

i keep hoping we are both wrong.


its to bad the majority of democrats have bought into this hating nader thing...
it was only done to protect their collectively corporately owned asses, not anybody elses.

[Honeycombe8]

133. Who? nt

[Arkana]

134. Self-absorbed prick who may have some good ideas,

but they can't get past his massively overinflated ego.

[mac56]

135. Ralph Nader is like the aging idiot, sitting on a barstool in any small town

getting bombed, ranting on about the wonderful things he once did, and how he would fix things right once and for all, by God, if only everyone would recognize his genius and let him have his way.

I have uncles like Ralph Nader. Pathetic, really.

[jeanpalmer]

138. Nader is great

He has been there for the average person for a long time. Much longer than Obama. He stands for principle.

[mix]

142. dustbin of history n/t