As bad as it seems, I think, as a whole, we're still better off today than we were in the 80s.

[Drunken Irishman]

Especially the early 80s, from 1980 to 1985. Crime rate was far higher, unemployment was far higher, the country was still doing that crazy Cold War thing and Ronald Reagan was our president.

I don't know, I was only born in the mid-80s, so I can't say for sure, but from what I've read and who I've talked to, we're nowhere near the level of total collapse as many felt then. Which tells me the climb, while difficult, won't take nearly as long. Maybe I'm an idealist, but if we could survive the 80s as a nation, surely we'll get through this. Right?

[jesus_of_suburbia]

1. For the simple fact that we have Pres Obama instead of Pres Reagan... we are much better off!

[MichiganVote]

2. Sure..what's two wars, billions of tax dollars to the Banks and one entire state that's in

a depression which nobody seems to recognize in the "united" states. More people out of work, fewer prospects for work, no healthcare plan worth a shit in the entire country and the infrastructure is maxed out.

Your birth alone, child, cost well over 40% less in the 80's that it would now. And, guess what, your infant mortality was better then. In some states it now falls below 10%.

An idealist aspires, a realist perspires....and no, some people, many people will not get through "this" because the billionaire elites don't want them too.

[Ken Burch]

3. Well, that, and Thompson Twins aren't on the charts any more.

[joeybee12]

4. In a sense, we're still in the 80's...the ignorance that propelled reaganomics to policy

is what is the basis of the current mess. The mad drive to deregulation and abysmyally stupid tax policies and unbridled greed that was the basic of that and which went basically unstopped (except for 8 years) caused this...throw that in a Reagan ass-licker's face.

[indepat]

15. Bingo: Reaganomics, the gift that just keeps on giving

:D

[Drunken Irishman]

22. I do agree with that.

Reagan not only fucked America in the 80s and 90s, but he's doing it again, even after his death.

Believe it or not, Reagan might be the most influential president in American history for that fact alone. His bullshit economic policies have dragged this country down for 30 years now.

[moondust]

53. Bravo.

And for 6 of those 8 years about all Clinton could do was use the threat of a veto to prevent the scourge from spreading even faster.

[druidity33]

5. whatever you're smoking...

i want some.

:eyes:

[Drunken Irishman]

7. Well if you disagree, let's hear it.

Because are you disagreeing with the facts that unemployment was higher then than it is now? Or are you saying crime was lower then than it is now? What about the whole Cold War and the fact Ronald Reagan was our president. Please, if you're not getting it or feel I'm up in the sky, tell me why.

[druidity33]

25. Well

Everyone i knew had a job, mostly Union. Almost everyone i knew was in the process of buying a house somewhere between 60 and 80 thousand dollars...y'know, a reasonable price. The school system had classes of 15 or 20 (instead of 35-40 now), there was Art and Gym at the school (complete with Art supplies and Gym equipment), there wasn't any type of Economic superweapon that could cripple our global financial system... you know, shit like that.

I could go on, and i'm sure you could pick everything that i say apart to point out how today it's "better"... but seeing as how i got laid off today, you're just not gonna be convincing me that because we're not facing the Cold War anymore we've somehow got it better. What the Global War on Terror isn't as bad as the Cold War?

Sheesh.

[Drunken Irishman]

35. Sorry to hear that.

I'm not going to pick everything that you said apart, however, I did find your tone rather dismissive. I'm sorry you lost your job, but you could have disagreed in a manner that wasn't so rude. But your snide remark was justified, because as I've already been told in this thread, I'm nothing but a drunk and as we know, drunks can't have an opinion, right?

But regardless, if we're going solely on personal experiences, well for my family, today is probably a bit better than it was in the 1980s, when my mother had to work at a 7-11 because it was the only work she could find. For me personally, it was better than 1992, when I watched a gang fight in the middle of my street end with a guy getting his head blown off.

Economically, things are bad and I'm not going to sugarcoat that. However, I also know that the country in the 80s was plagued by inner-city crime, rates that make today's numbers look like we're a pacifist nation. Gangs were at their height, New York was at its lowest point and most of Southern California was a war zone. On top of all of that, unemployment was either equal or worse than today's figures and Ronald Reagan was still our president.

Yes, forgive me for trying to find some type of optimism in what we're dealing with today. What the fuck do I know, right? I'm just a drunk pot smoking child who doesn't know two shits about anything.

[druidity33]

45. maybe you are drunk

But thinking that Reagan was worse than Bush makes me think you are addled by an old head injury too. As for Unemployment being worse... with the chronically unemployed (not counted) and the chronically underemployed, and years of Bush/R reporting methods, i don't think you can be sure that's true.

I'm sorry that you feel people should be as optimistic as you. I think we are slowly circling the drain right now. There's nothing anyone can do to stop it. That's what i see and those are my thoughts, i'll make no apologies about it. My only hope is that when the Mayan calendar ends in 2012, it will be a time of Transformational change that will leave us as a species with more altruistic tendencies. A little more innate kindness and humility would be helpful.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Drunken Irishman]

55. Wait, whoa, step back for a second.

I never said Reagan was worse than Bush.

I just said that 1983, the country was in the toilet and in spite of Reagan, we managed to get through. The big difference, of course, was that we were saddled with Reagan for two terms, then his vice president for another. This time, however, we have Barack Obama as president.

That's not saying Reagan was worse than Bush, though it should be noted Reagan's policies are a big reason for the mess we're in today.

And I agree about the 2012 thing. I hope it happens, just to see what the end of the world will be like.

Of course, I'm a sick puppy.

[druidity33]

66. this is Bush now

that we're dealing with, not Obama. The next couple of years we will still only be reacting to/moving/cleaning up the stinking pile that GWB left. So when you say it was better under Reagan, you really are comparing him to Bush, whether you wantd to or not. Yes, Reagan's policies opened the door for Bush, but the Devil doesn't open the door for the Imp, it's the other way around, you know.

The country was better off under Reagan (and much better under GWHB) than it is now. I just fundamentally disagree with you. Every adult i knew in the 80's actually had a Savings acct fer cryin out loud. Most EVERYONE i know now is jobless and a couple of my previously employed (good job) friends are now homeless/living with elderly parents.

Not trying to burn your butter, i just think the premise of the OP is flawed and vague... which is why i at first responded flippantly. Didn't realize you had a thin skin.


:shrug:

[xchrom]

6. my paycheck -- compared to cost of living was much, much better than it is today.

not that it wasn't going down them --

but you are drunk if you think it's better now.

this is way more desperate.

[Drunken Irishman]

9. I'm drunk, but that doesn't hinder my point.

Unemployment in the 1980s was far higher than it is today. Crime rate in the 1980s was far higher than it is today. Homicide rates in the country were far higher than it is today. Poverty numbers were far higher than it is today. Many American cities, including our largest, were taken over by crime.

Maybe for you life was personally better, however, I'd wager as a whole, we were worse off as a country in 1983 than we are in 2009. I say that because more Americans were out of jobs, more Americans were dying in our cities and more Americans lived in poverty back then (the poverty level in 1983 has been unsurpassed since 1965).

I think, as a nation, we are better off today than we were in 1983.

[xchrom]

13. indeed -- you're drunk. -- nt

[Drunken Irishman]

17. It's pretty unfortunate you can't provide anything of substance.

This topic too deep for you?

[xchrom]

23. it is if the OP is drunk. nt

[Drunken Irishman]

24. haha, good one!

Keep calling me a drunk, yeah, that's just awesome. Instead of actually telling me why you think I'm wrong, just keep name-calling, it makes you look so fucking big. :eyes:

[xchrom]

27. you said it -- not me. nt

[xchrom]

30. ' I'm drunk, but that doesn't hinder my point.' -- yes it does. nt

[Drunken Irishman]

36. I was joking about being drunk and you've yet to show me why it has.

C'mon, or are you just good at tossing insults?

[xchrom]

41. you know you're not telling the truth -- if the stated unemployment is x% -- it's much higher.

it doesn't count those who have stopped or are under employed or whatever.

you're being obtuse and disingenuous for your own stupid and -- by your own admission -- drunken -- purposes.

you don't do yourself or any one else any favors by trying to tell some bizarre untruth that it's better today than then.

we came NO WHERE as close to the kind of collapse we're sitting on today.
what was the loss that people suffered from their drop in home equity? -- just for one.

since you say you were around then -- i can only conclude these untruths are suiting some pro-status quo message you don't want to really throw down.

[Drunken Irishman]

56. I'm telling the truth, my friend.

The numbers I use are no different than the numbers they used in the 1980s. So it's only logical to assume that if the numbers are wrong today, they were wrong then and the economic conditions were probably worse in 1983 than what we were told.

As for being obtuse, no, I'm sorry, but I've laid out my case. Maybe you disagree, and that's fine, but you could have found a better way of showing it than attacking me. But whatever, I'm over the drunken slam.

So sure, continue pushing this idea that I'm quoting untruths, though I think it proves you really don't have an argument, so I don't understand why you're even commenting at all.

[xchrom]

59. as someone else pointed out -- they don't even count the numbers the same.

and i'm pretty sure you knew that, my friend.

you don't include the losses incurred from 401ks -- equity -- people who.ve stopped looking -- oh my friend -- you know what you're doing --
and it's not about telling a truth.

[Joe Chi Minh]

69. All these intervening years, both in the US and the UK, most people's real income , their

purchasing power and disposable income, have been getting smaller and smaller.

The significance of that de-unionization cannot be overemphasised. Big Business has become ever more powerful; the general public, less and less secure, never mind powerful.

[Skink]

50. In the eighties you could pay rent on 8 dollars an hour.

Today that wouldn't even cover utilities. The 80's were the only time I ever had cable.

[Drunken Irishman]

57. So you'd say the 80s were better than the 90s?

[Hawkowl]

63. No

You have to realize that you are comparing selective history, (what you've read or heard since you were too young to experience) with what you're experiencing now. In other words, it doesn't seem so bad because you don't know any better.

Unemployment was also measured differently under Reagan. If we measured it the same way today we'd have over 15% unemployment (google is your friend). More importantly REAL WAGES (nominal wages adjusted for inflation), were much higher than today. For instance, I made $3.35 per hour, minimum wage in 1984, now 25 years, later it's only $6.55!!!! Prices for everyday items have certainly more than doubled in 25 years. And there are far fewer poverty and aid programs now. For instance, I started college at Valparaiso University, in Indiana in 1984 and I went FREE, because I was so goddamned poor. No shitty loans. Try doing that today.

Corporations did not have the absolute stranglehold on our country, or the world, back then. Free trade agreements were ludicrous. Health care was more than affordable and insurance paid for EVERYTHING.

The two wars also are indescribably horrible beyond belief. Six years of war. Six years of death, destruction and maiming. And no end in sight in Afghanistan, another 18 months in Iraq. The destruction of a whole generation of armed forces by PTSD. And the Pentagon wasn't bleeding us dry. Trust me, the cold war was WAY BETTER. The Soviets were far better enemies than our one true enemy now: ourselves!

Most of all, what you can not possibly imagine, having not lived it, how much freer we were and how OPPRESSED WE ARE TODAY. Warrantless wiretaps?!?! The FBI can enter and search your home and not even notify you after the fact!?! You could be declared an enemy combatant and be held forever?!?! Bush and his cronies are war criminals, about to be indicted by the Spanish and Obama is turning a blind eye!?! These were the reasons we were fighting the commies for chrissakes. Nixon and watergate were still very vivid and Presidents were wary, and the congress powerful. Our democracy now is a big, sick, fucking joke. The world considered America to be the leader of the free world--and they were right! We aren't anymore, and despite Obama's election, will not regain this mantle until we bring our war criminals to justice, restore our civil rights, and repudiate unilateral, illegal wars.

[panader0]

8. I'm 58 and have construction work all my life until lately

Even in the recessions of the past. All my buds are laid off too, drywallers, concrete finishers, carpenters, masons, all waiting for work.

[Drunken Irishman]

11. Ok, but our unemployment numbers still don't sniff where the country was in 1983.

In 1983, the United States' unemployment rate was at 9.6. We're not there yet and even then, for most of 1983, America's unemployment rate hovered over 10%.

[brentspeak]

12. Many states are already in double-digits unemployment

California, Ohio, Michigan...

Plus, every state has a greater population today than it did 26 years ago.

[Drunken Irishman]

20. This is true, but they also had remarkabley high unemployment rates back then, too.

So at best, we're breaking even here when it comes to unemployment. That still doesn't change the fact crime was higher, more people were in poverty and Ronald Reagan was still our president.

[xchrom]

14. californias counted unemployment is 10.5% .nt

[Drunken Irishman]

19. Yes and what was it in 1983?

[BeFree]

10. Well

We weren't so near to peak oil and Global Warming, and the debt was like a third of what it is today. We do have a better president but a worse congress.

We had a much freer press then. We had a higher interest rate. There were a whole lot less people. Air pollution was not as bad as it is now. The oceans had a lot more fish. Russia was the enemy, and may still be, they still have a lot of nukes. China was not as powerful and the Middle East wasn't such a mess.

I don't remember this feeling of doom back then, not like it is today.

Today the world's problems are a lot more serious and since Carter got cheated out of office have been very neglected until now. Frankly, I'm glad I am an old man, I feel bad for the kids. We will not leave this world in better shape than when we were born.

[Drunken Irishman]

Maybe it's perspective.

I think for people who grew up in the inner-cities in the 1980s and early 90s, things might not seem nearly as bad as they were. I grew up in a lower income housing project in the 90s and I remember gang fights nightly. It wasn't a fun experience, yet gangs today in my city aren't nearly the issue they were in the 1980s.

Maybe that's where this comes from. Frankly, maybe it's our ability to connect beyond just our local community that makes things seem worse today than they were back then. If you had internet access in 1983 and the ability to read whatever was put out there about all the problems the country was facing, you might have felt lost and sick about what was going on in your country.

But since most of the people in the 80s had to rely on the news, radio and word of mouth, the information just wasn't there.

[BeFree]

34. Eh

I considered myself a voice in the wilderness 20 years ago. DU has shown that there were other voices back then we just didn't hear each other. But the freer press did a far better job, too.

Nearly all the bad things forecast then are happening now.

Never had much experience with gangs, so if you say it is so, that's good, but that doesn't mean gangs are done and over with. Shoot, a movie about the gangs of NY @ 1860 showed how miserable gangs could be and in some countries gangs do rule.

One thing about today, worldwide, is that prosperity is spread out to more people than ever. If and when the prosperity disappears, lots of people are gonna be mighty unhappy. The G20 knows this. Throw peak oil and climate changes into the mix and lots of wealth evaporates. In fact, the oil pricing ripoff we just went through caused a lot of wealth transfer and is making lots unhappy right now.

[Drunken Irishman]

38. Oh I know gangs aren't done with.

But they're not nearly at the level they were in the 1980s and 90s. It's moved mostly underground, since gang task forces all around the country have really done a good job at bringing gang crime down.

The thing is, even if the press was freer back then, I still find it hard to believe every aspect of the national and world affairs were as easily accessible as they are today.

One thing is for sure, cable news and talk radio have changed the whole foundation of American politics and government. As you saw with the recent shootings, it's far easier to spread hate now than it was in the 1980s because there are now so many avenues to do so. In that regard, I do believe we are worse off as a country.

[BeFree]

44. Yeah

It is part of that underground thing. Now they can spew hate via the internet helping them get their jollies w/o actually getting in someones face.

The internet does help to make this a better time and place. What we do with it remains to be seen. It could incite more hate once it matures, or it could help us to overcome the fear. Seems to be doing both right now. Could go either way. Lord knows some DU posters sure get my hackles up. :smiley:

And cable -- the boob tube. The world sure has a lot of boobs, eh?

[Joe Chi Minh]

72. "I think for people who grew up in the inner-cities in the 1980s and early 90s,

things might not seem nearly as bad as they were. I grew up in a lower income housing project in the 90s and I remember gang fights nightly. It wasn't a fun experience, yet gangs today in my city aren't nearly the issue they were in the 1980s."

That's the impression I got from your post.

[Teaser]

29. "air pollution" is markedly better today than it was in the early 80s.

other than that, I have little dispute with your list.

note: this does not include CO2, as it's not often considered an "air pollutant", although hopefully it will be soon and treated as such.

[BeFree]

39. I treat it as such

The CO2.

The data I have seen from the higher altitudes^* shows AP trend lines increasing.

Cities have cleaned up a good bit, but through all the layers of the atmosphere, it is getting worse. imo.


*--National Park Service -- Rocky Mountains and Great Smokies

[Hippo_Tron]

31. The Senate was controlled by Republicans back then, I think we have a better congress now

[BeFree]

40. Yeah, but

The pubbies weren't nearly as rabid then as they are today, and the Dems were a far better lot. I stand by my feeling on this.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. Tip O'Neill was probably a better Speaker than Pelosi, but...

I really don't think the Dems were any better in the 80's or the Republicans were any worse. I think the Congress may have been better in the 70's but not the 80's.

[Mike 03]

16. Yes, unbeknownst to me, my parents were trying to send me and my two sisters to universities

during what I later learned was a very serious recession.

To this day, I marvel at, and appreciate, the fact they were able to do this without any of us worrying for them.

[Mike 03]

18. Thank you, Drunken Irishman, your posts lately have been very

knowlegeable, timely and pertinent.

Not only that, but now you are taking me down memory lane and bringing tears to my eyes.

My parents struggled, only they didn't expose that until far later in our lives.

[Drunken Irishman]

21. My family struggled more in the 80s than they are right now.

My state was also worse off in the 80s than it is now, both on the streets and in the economic sector. But it seems most people here don't agree. I don't know, I wasn't around for much of the 80s and can't comment on the mindset of the nation. What I do know, though, is that the country was pretty bad off back then and we somehow got through it.

And hell, we got through it with a Republican in the White House for the entire decade!

[Teaser]

26. also, we have internet pr0n

God I love the intarwebz.

[Selatius]

28. Unemployment wise, we are probably worse off than in 1983 if we honestly examine unemployment.

Personally, I follow U-6 unemployment numbers, not the U-3 numbers the government reports.

U-6 unemployment number is about to breach the 16% threshold pretty soon, likely within the next couple of months if things do not swiftly change.

[Drunken Irishman]

37. Well what would the U-6 numbers be for 1983?

I mean, if we're going to debunk the government reports, isn't it entirely possible the 1980s numbers were just as bogus back then?

[Selatius]

43. this showed up when I referenced U-6 unemployment in 1983.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04072009/business/its_a_lot_of_work_to_keep_up_with_jobles_163247.htm

In 1980, the BLS used a different standard to report unemployment numbers than now, and the BLS is good in the respect that it reports the changes it has done over the years. The only thing that needs to be done is for people to go through the numbers and undo the revisions the BLS has added in over the years. Nowadays, it's much easier for the BLS to remove workers out of the labor force by reclassifying them as "discouraged." If they are not in the labor force anymore, then they cannot logically be "unemployed."

A better primer on what the BLS has done over the last two decades could be read here:

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/employment

[Drunken Irishman]

58. Thanks.

So I think the unemployment rates were very similar today than they were in the 1980s.

[Selatius]

64. Yeah, I'm willing to correct myself on that score.

I would have to say that today, at least as of the current date, isn't worse than the early 1980s, but given the changes to reporting methodology, I would personally believe we are just as bad right now as it was around then despite what the government is reporting. If the monthly job losses continue at the current rate, which is appalling if you look them up, I think we're going to beat the old mark, and that is not a race I'm quick to want to win any time soon, given that I'm in the job market.

[Double T]

32. NO. We are not going to get through this if we stay the current course.

We can't keep spending money we don't have. American capitalism has destroyed our nation and until fundamental changes are made to our economic, financial and governmental systems there is no hope for a recovery. The people that got US in this mess can't be the same people that get US out. Ronnie Reagan was the BIGGEST fraud that ever walked. BO has headed down some paths that are questionable at best. Since radical change does not seem eminent, either does recovery.

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. In 1982, I would have been insulted to get less than a 15% pay raise.

Today, it'd be nice to get pay.

[Hawaii Hiker]

51. If one had extra money to put into a CD in 1982,

you probably got somewhere between 10-15% interest...

What do CD's pay now, 2-3% or so...

[Joe Chi Minh]

74. And it probably wasn't staged over months or years! But that's a heck of good

point, because it is surely very indicative of the wider labour scene.

[relayerbob]

46. No

While things were very bad, the potential for complete collapse wasn't there. The level of fear is much higher now. No one discussed "depression". Overall, I do believe we'll get through this, however, don't think of this as somehow better than the 80s, it isn't. But at least we have Obama, and not a right-wing actor pretending to be President.

[mitchum]

47. Well, Reagan is dead

so I guess we are better off

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Crime Rate Was Higher, But Otherwise...

Actual unemployment was probably the same. Most important, a family of four could live a Middle Class existence on a single typical salary. Now we can't do that on *two* typical salaries.

And it's not getting better any time soon: thanks to the Paulson/Summer/Geithner Banker Bailout, we'll be in debt forever.

[Joe Chi Minh]

75. Another "slam dunk" point. What could be more significant? It's not just

the economy, pace Wild Bill; it's how justly it's organised.

[Canuckistanian]

49. Back in the 80s, Glass-Steagall was still in effect

The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was but a twinkle in a RWers eyes. The Commodities Futures Act was mere pipe dream to a Wall Street executive.

And the "Fairness Doctrine" was the guiding principle of the FCC.

There. Do you see the difference now?

[depakid]

61. Yep- no such thing as ubiquitous hate radio of Fox "news"

And from experience at universities during both periods, I can tell you that Americans were much more intelligent and better educated back in the 80's. Some of the things I've seen on the graduate level in the 00's have just made my jaw drop.

[ShortnFiery]

52. Now the M$M is painting Iran as the next great "THREAT."

:eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

54. I think both opinions hit close enough to the mark to be worth considering

How I feel is that the early 80's were a bit more day to day shitty but our current long term prospects are many times worse.

That said the overall situation is worse today and it is because of the combination of crappy and deteriorating immediate circumstances with a bleak look out for the future.
The great thing about today is that we can lay the foundation for a better world and be responsible for literally saving the world but on the flip side we get the "pleasure" of weathering the brunt of the decline.

Eighties, today, it doesn't really matter. It is all the same shit sandwich, if someone thinks the bread tasted worse than the meat then their opinion isn't too much less valid than the opposite.
Its all the same process, in many respects the same fuckin' day man.

[Joe Chi Minh]

78. That's a very weird contention. Are you saying that, because we are in such deep sh*ite,

we have a unique opportunity to get out of it? And "save the world" from what? From your bankers and brokers and the poison fruit of economic penury they have borne?

Or do you mean, enabling the whole world to start over, on the basis of a completely fresh, economic model, in which growth and unconfined profit at the expense of the workforce are definitively rejected, in favour of the social-democratic model of France, Germany, Scandinavia, etc?

[provis99]

60. I had a much worse feeling in the early 80s than I had now.

Right around 1983, I was convinced Reagan would get us all killed in a nuclear war; that very real fear was much worse than the fear I have now, which is merely about uncontrolled environmental destruction and worldwide economic colllapse. I guess I just figured worldwide nuclear annihilation in 30 minutes was worse, by that's just me.

[paulk]

62. maybe it's a function of age

when you're younger you just tend to be more optimistic?

Personally - in the eighties I had a good job, I had health insurance.

I have neither now.

[Imagevision]

65. Like you said you're drunk (and you got this much attention?) do 2 more hits

[HamdenRice]

67. The idea is right. The dates are off.

I'm not sure where we are heading, but we certainly have not reached the depths of the economic malaise/crisis of the 1970s. By the 1980s, the urban northeast at least was already recovering.

Right now, there is a level of vacancy and foreclosure that is frightening. But it's nothing compared to around 1973-76. That was the era of "The Bronx is Burning," when huge swaths of New York had simply been abandoned, and crime, drugs and corruption were out of control.

We are nowhere near our state of collapse of that era.

[Joe Chi Minh]

80. Very interesting.

[Romulox]

68. Only someone in their early 20's would lecture about a time before they were born

to persons who actually lived through those times.

Ah, to be young and arrogant again! It's amazing how much less we know as we get older :eyes:

[omega minimo]

70. that was the beginning of corporate takeover of government, this is the end.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

71. It was not the beginning of corporate takeover of the government...that's been happening throughout

our history.

The entire 1920s for a start.

[omega minimo]

76. Wrong. The rise of Reaganism to institutionalize corporate government is nearly fulfilled now

Clearly we are is a far worse position that we were in the early 80's.

While you quibble over the life cycles of fascism, what are you doing about the current imminent threat?

:popcorn:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

77. Corporate government was all that existed in the 1920s. The prevailing attitude was that this was

the natural state of affairs. A *good* thing.

I don't know if the 80s were better than now or vice versa. I did not claim too. But I DO know that corporations didn't just spring up in the 1980s. I DO know that this has been an ongoing struggle throughout our nation's history. It is naive to forget that.

[omega minimo]

79. No one said they "just sprang up in the 80's" Yes, these things cycle. The post was a response to OP

the comparison of that particular timeline is as I said.

What's truly "naive" is the OP and other who don't understand how different the cliff we're standing on now is. Maybe you can enlighten them. :thumbsup:

[Mojorabbit]

73. I think it is worse now

I was in my late twenties in the 80's. Most people I knew could find at least some kind of work. Interest rates were very high. I know way more people now who cannot find any work and the global situation seems much more dire.

[Grateful for Hope]

81. I have been reading the threads here today

and, I suspect you recognize that the unemployment rate is calculated differently now than it was in the '80's.

[druidity33]

82. What do Drunken Irishmen do?

They pick fights.

That's this whole thread.



all i'm sayin'...