Texas Secession... what if?

[cwcwmack]

So what if they did? If they could? (which they can't)

They'd lose Federal funding, but they'd pay NO Federal Income Tax.

Effect: Probably net gain for a state in the current economy that Texas is enjoying.

They'd have a short term net population increase.

Why? All the knuckle dragging rednecks and the wealthy would RUN there. Some Lower to middle class (especially minorities) residents would leave.

Effect: They'd bring quite a bit of money INTO their economy.

How would they pay for Freeways, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc? They already have tollways paid for by private funding...

They'd HAVE TO institute a state income tax.

Military?

Why would they? Not like Mexico or the US would invade. They have the Texas National Guard... who owns all the military equipment they have? Is it Texas or the Fed?

Interesting issue... but can't really happen, but I'm no constitutional attorney!

[Mz Pip]

1. It wouldn't be pretty

The last Civil War sure wasn't.

I sort of doubt the good people of Texas will nip this nonsense in the bud. Then again where else could George be KING?

[GoesTo11]

2. A lot would be negotiated, like share of debt, ownership of equipment

That's how it has worked in other cases where federations split, etc.

[cwcwmack]

5. Yes, I think so...

They'd negotiate Federal property vs. Texas property and debts vs. assets.


The state could exist independently.

But I disagree that it'd be "bloody"... there wouldn't be a shot fired. It'd be done in the courts. I mean think about it... does ANYONE think that ANY POTUS is going to order the Army units in Ft. Hood to attack the Texas Nat'l Guard an/or Texas DPS?

Not a chance.

This is NOT the same nation it was in 1861-65. People would have NO stomach for the fighting.

This opens up a Pandora's box, The US would have to deny immigration to people leaving Texas. For the most part, the exodus would be minorities and poor folks... so basically Texas gains wealthy folks and wingnuts. This would put a strain on other states and their economies.

How about businesses? How many businesses would move to Texas? Would the US impart a customs duty on their products? Would DELL computers be "an import"? Texas has a zillion acres they could build economic/mfg/business cities...

IMHO, a Texan secession would only HELP Texas at the cost of other states.

[cwcwmack]

6. the more

I think about this...

think of all the companies that'd move there. Microsoft, etc... they'd run there for the tax breaks. They'd save millions.

I'll go as far as saying that a Texas secession would bankrupt the US.

[quakerboy]

17. Without Texas as a conservative bastion

The laws here in the US would change. The balance in the rest of the country would be affected. And the rest of us might have something to say about it. And I doubt Texas can offer a better tax deal than, say, Mexico. Or India. Or the Cayman Islands. Except they wouldn't be a part of NAFTA right off the top, so they might actually be less appealing.

Then you consider that anyone not rich, but with any talent or skill and any resources at all would probably be inclined to leave while they can, knowing that, knowing that in a few years their labor would be worth jack all in a country blatantly and unchallengedly ruled by wealthy right wingers. The country would go on much as it has to this point.

And all of that doesn't factor in anything Mexico might have to say about things as treaty issues were worked out.

I will go as far as saying that next natural disaster, Texas would be at our doorstep begging for reentry.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. However the US could impose penalties on companies that do this

and they could enact tariffs on products produced in Texas.

I think that Texas would have some problems with their border with Mexico. They would have to have a dedicated police force just to try and enforce drug laws (and don't expect a conservative government in Texas to ever legalize pot). They would have to find a way to raise revenues for this and for things like water preservation, something that is critical in West Texas. And there is the issue of infrastructure--I know that there are lots of toll roads, but would Texans stand for every farm to market road being a toll road?

[jberryhill]

14. "It'd be done in the courts."

Ummmm.... no. Secession is not lawful, and no court is going to allow Texas to secede and then split up property.

[cwcwmack]

16. we know it won't happen...

but if it would it'd require a constitutional amendment I would guess... OR a Supreme Court decision stating that it WAS legal.

So, WHO is the Chief Justice? How many Repugs on the Court?

Hmmmmmmmm....

[jberryhill]

18. Secession is not a "Republican" position

It is a treasonous proposition. Period.

That the Governor of Texas is openly flirting with such notions is sufficient IMHO to increase security of US installations in that state and to have him investigated to determine his intentions.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

3. Perry (and Delay) should either push for it in earnest...

...or "get off the pot" -- that should be the message, it seems to me. None of this political sidestepping: Either advocate for it or drop it completely, no middle ground allowed.

[quakerboy]

7. Yup. put up or shut up

I wonder who would walk away with the gulf oil. And If we get rid of Texas, does that mean we can take Cuba in exchange?

[Bad Thoughts]

4. We would renegotiate the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

The unionization of Texas was a treaty, as well as constitutional, matter, and Mexico would have a say in the process.

[TTUBatfan2008]

8. What if a Cat 5 hurricane hits Houston?

Wipes out all the refineries, etc. The Texas economy would be devastated and there would be no money to pay for the disaster relief since the governor always goes crying to the U.S. government for help when a major storm happens. And what about protecting the Texas border from illegal Mexican immigrants? Currently Texas receives U.S. tax dollars to help with that issue. If my state secedes, we would lose those tax dollars.

[cwcwmack]

10. well...

it depends on the "new" Texas economy, if they had Microsoft, Caterpillar, FORD and DELL there... there might be enough money in the system to be self sufficient. They're a "net positive" state... they have more than they spend...

[TTUBatfan2008]

13. A fact I'm proud of as a Texan...

but I'm also completely against secession. Our economy is currently based on the rest of the country's oil consumption. Don't think for one second that Texas would get off scot-free if it seceded. There would be HEAVY import tariffs from the U.S. government against oil and natural gas products exported from Texas to the U.S.

[Orsino]

44. They will need to elect their own president to ignore the emergency. n/t

[jberryhill]

9. You mean if permitted to?

Because they would not make it very far otherwise.

Yes, military force will be used to enforce a Supreme Court decision, and they seem to need periodic reminders in that part of the country.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. There would need to be an amendment to the Texas Constitution

The Texas Constitution does not allow for a tax based on an individuals or entity's income.

That didn't stop the assholes in Austin from instituting the Texas Margin Tax (basically Revenue minus allowable expenses. How is that NOT an income tax)

Anywho, I digress. Texas has the most federally funded or subsidized highways in the nation and there would need to be some mechanism for revenue.

[cwcwmack]

15. oh. they'd tax the fundies...

and the blue blooded for the pleasure of being a "Texan".

Instead of 35% FIT they'd charge like 15%...

they'd have money because a lot of the internal "costs" would be eliminated. You think "Texas" the state would offer much in the way of welfare and food stamps?

[cwcwmack]

20. another problem is...

if you allow TEXAS to secede, how can you say NO to UTAH?

Basically you'd end up with a fractured UNION with all these independent states scattered around the union...

[PBS Poll-435]

23. Weird thing about the Reconstruction terms re: Texas

Texas was not required to remove from its Constitution its ability to seceed at will.

Texas is also the only state in the Union that can fly its flag at the same level (height) as the US Constitution.

[Lyric]

27. That's an urban legend.

No truth to it. Any state can fly its flag at the same height as the national flag.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texasflag.asp

[PBS Poll-435]

34. Thanks for the link

I heard that from a Texas State Ranger during a tour group when I was in high school.

Guess anyone can be susceptible to urban legend.

[Lyric]

36. Especially Texas Rangers.

We wouldn't want their Big Guns to shrink.

;)

[NorthCarolina]

12. I say give TX the boot, then give statehood to DC and we won't even have to change the flag

it's a Win Win!

[quakerboy]

19. Better yet, we should secede from TX

and petition to join Canada!

[NorthCarolina]

29. A round about way to get Universal Single Payer Health Care n/t

[quakerboy]

31. Wouldnt hurt my feelings any

Lets do it.

[Nailzberg]

21. Just threaten to kick the Cowboys out of the NFL, that'll put this secession talk to rest.

[quickesst]

22. In all of the Texas secession threads....

..that I have read, the thing that strikes me most about the comments is the total absence of any reference, or concern for the 3.5 million people who voted for Barack Obama. Quite naturally, this lack of recognition extends to their families also. This:

"Some Lower to middle class (especially minorities) residents would leave."

...is as close as anyone has come, and that is they would just leave. And go where? Hell, I'm lower middle class in Arkansas, another red state, but I love home, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I love it so much, that I'd rather put up with the crap, and change it when I can rather than leave. Texans feel the same goddamn way everyone else, north, east, west, or south does about their homes. So, while everyone is playing Fantasy World where southern repugs are their only victims, we're wondering if being unmentioned "collateral damage" in the fantasy is that desireable a part. I think we need to speak with our agent. Thanks.
quickesst

[quakerboy]

24. I think that most of us here

could agree that in all likelyhood, setting aside flights of fancy, it would be a traumatic and harmfull thing to everyone involved.

[Hellataz]

25. What I imagine the New Country of Texas would be like:

First of all they they wouldn't have welfare, food stamps or medicare. They would probably become the most hard core conservative model with everyone just fending for themselves and no regulations.

• They would also be a church state and create laws that are morally in sync with the warped christian value system.
• They would not have to create a state income tax, but eventually they would have to create a program (not called taxes, but essentially is) that forces the residents to pay for roads and other state affairs.
• Police, firemen, and teachers would all be privatized. Schools would most likely be private citizen funded church based schools.
• Any Law, if they created any, would be enforced by a military presence.
• They would make being gay illegal (or at least sodomy).
• They would force out people with disabilities by mistreating them or framing them for crimes.
• Their cable companies would have 100 channels devoted to football and the rest devoted to evangelical programs.
• Law enforcement would be allowed to work outside the law with a "the ends justify the means" mentality.
• They would build an obscenely large fence around the entire state to keep their communities safe from anyone that threatens their christian nation.
• They would ban all forms of dance other then Line...Wait that's footloose right?
• They would make it law that everyone owns at least one firearm. Ironically missing the point that in order to enforce that, the guns would all have to be registered to make sure no one is without one.
• Abortion would be illegal.
• Residents would be encourage to set up drilling platforms wherever possible to help fund the state and provide oil and natural gas, since no muslim country will ever agree to sell them theirs, given all the hostility they have shown that nation.
• Open Racism would not be frowned upon


This is the Right Wing Mecca. And Frankly if they all want to move to one place that isn't associated with our country I am all for it!

[Hansel]

33. They would start a war with Mexico over illegal immigration

by using "no tolerance" violent methods to keep all Mexicans out. The US would have to come in and occupy them in order to prevent the violence from spilling over into US territory. The people of Texas would overthrow the government and immediately reapply for statehood because the militiamen will have turned their young country into a war zone much like Iraq.

Needless to say The US is not going to let them go anywhere because of the national security risk of having a rogue nation filled with trigger happy militiamen between it and Mexico at this very volatile moment in time.

[Paladin]

38. I'm Alerting The Moderators About Your Post.

3.5 million Texans voted for Obama. There's no reason why Texan DUers should put up with brain-dead stereotyping of the sort you're peddling. Find some other group to hate......

[crispini]

41. Why do people think that it's the REST of the U.S. that keeps Texas from doing that stuff?

It's the DEMOCRATS WHO LIVE HERE that keep Texas from doing that stuff. Hellooooo.... I live in a blue county, Austin is a blue county, and Houston is well on its way to becoming a blue county. In fact, we're one seat short from CONTROLLING THE TEXAS STATE HOUSE. Texas is actually NOT as monolithic, and NOT as crazy, as people like to paint it. And, no, we're not going to secede and although I understand the OP was a thought experiment, this line of thinking does get a little tiresome from time to time.

[nolabear]

26. Oh, please. No Dallas Cowboys in the NFL?

The gov had better watch it; this could get mean.

[Nailzberg]

32. Aggies and Longhorns out of the NCAA.

Its their weakness. We'll crush this talk of secession with a football embargo.

[NorthCarolina]

30. I double dog dare TX to secede n/t

[madmom]

35. My idea for texas. Since most southern states get more Federal money than they

give (I'm not sure if texas is one of them or not) but if they are, since they want to be a sovereign state, only give them the amount they send in, no more, let them make it on their own.No extra federal help with natural disasters or immigration problems or any thing over and above the amount they pay for with their tax revenue. That would be a sovereign state right?

[crispini]

42. Actually, Texas gives more federal money that they get.

And Texas is one of the few states big enough to have its own economy and we could probably make it on our own. NOT THAT I'M SAYING IT'S A GOOD IDEA but that's exactly why this tired old canard keeps getting tossed around.

[salguine]

37. As long as they left Austin behind I'd be fine with it. But I suspect the

secession crowd would be happy to leave Austin behind anyway.

[asdjrocky]

39. And when there's a hurricane or some other natural disaster...

They can lose our number. Gawd I hate Texas.

[workinclasszero]

40. Do you think the AA's and Latinos would support the second Confederacy?

I believe this secessionist drivel is in fact a white separatist movement. It would be a top down astro turf "revolution" of rich white people with the help of the useful tools of Boss Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.

I do not believe the lower and middle class people in Texas would sit back and see their entire social safety net, poor as it is, ripped away by rich white people and replaced with a wonderful cash only capitalist system.

As far as the national Guard goes, all their equipment belongs to the Federal government, period. So unless these fine upstanding, "christian patriots" want to steal property that doesn't belong to them, they would have to surrender all such property to the feds.

Actually their would be an upside to Texas leaving the Union, think about that. Every knuckle dragging freeper in the USA would be gone to Texas, hallelujah!! It would be mere days before an internal war would break out in Texas as the racist minority in power started forced removal of Mexican immigrants. Maybe they would try to force AA's into ghettos like their nazi heroes did also.

OTOH, I can see people in the USA making good money running guns to Texas so minority's can defend themselves. I also believe Mexico might get an urge to invade the ex-state to reclaim land and protect its citizens.

Yup all these reich wing fanatics would be tied down forever in loony KKK-Texas! BRING IT ON FREEPERS!

Umm...for the sake of all the sane working class people in Texas, I hope this doesn't happen. It would be a hell on earth for anyone not white and rich no doubt.

[Bill219]

43. I have a legal question about this topic

How would the Texas vs White Supreme Court ruling affect any talks of secession?

It clearly states that a state cannot unilaterally secede from the United States.