This may be hard to swallow, but President Obama is a Politician.

[npk]

President Obama is a politician. Like any politician the goal is to of course stay in power. Not just for selfish reasons, but also because a fall from power could open the door for the opposition to regain power. President Obama could go after former President Bush and his top administration officials. Perhaps he even will, at some point. We all want justice and we want it now. I want justice also. I believe President Obama has a plan and I am willing to allow that plan time to play itself out.


While indicting former President Bush and his top administration officials would certainly make all of us very happy, it would no doubt divide the country sharply. Now some of you are saying right about now, “fuck the other half of the country.” But understand that President Obama needs support from the moderate factions of conservatives in this country to remain as president for the next 8 years. Obama knows this. Unfortunately the far right also knows this. They are hoping that President Obama takes the bait. They want him to go after Bush and his top officials with the full power of the federal government. They are like dogs salivating over this very prospect. They could give two shits about Bush any longer. He has served his purpose and those on the far right would gladly sacrifice him for such a potential political gain.


Many moderates in the country do not agree with what President Bush and his administration did. No doubt they are disgusted. There is also little doubt that they would object to seeing President Obama going after another former president in this manner. It would definitely cost President Obama many votes in his bid for reelection in 2012. And while Obama may not be perfect, and many of us may not agree with this decision at this moment and time, I believe that all of us know what the stakes are. And allowing the Republicans a chance to use such a divisive issue against President Obama is not worth it. At least not right now. Give President Obama some time. He may be thinking several moves ahead. In time we may see President Obama bring the justice that we all demand. But like any politician there is right time and a wrong time, and whether we like it or not, sometimes the politicians, even the good ones, have to play the games to survive.


edited for: spelling.

[Clio the Leo]

1. Yup NT

[MarjorieG]

2. And a pragmatic politician. Evidence out there, but pushing health care, budget as better choice of

action.

I personally don't see the point of stopping CIA effectiveness into global terrorism, etc, for personal fears of prosecution that will not get us higher, for those who want that kind of justice. I also think Obama has certain limitations when dealing with the CIA as a private club and went far, while treading lightly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Americans - for good reason - do not like prosecution of former governments

It strikes people as tin-pot and vindictive. Even if the government was as corrupt and despicable and law-breaking as the Bush regime. It suggests that future elections will be about retribution through prosecution. Indeed, it is a path toward violent collapse of civil society, as the history of Jamaica after 1960 shows fairly clearly. A lot of people here are railing about the "rule of law." Yes, absolutely. Or rather, relatively. The rule of law cannot be the mechanism to destroy civil society by setting up elections as gang wars, complete with show trials at the beginning of each new regime. It's a formula for disintegration. It's unpleasant, but it's a trade-off we make. We have to eat shit for four or eight years, and then we move on. People die. It's fucking horrible. But you really can't set a precedent of even the appearance of post-election vindictive prosecution, even when prosecutions are warranted. It's step one towards Rwanda. Unfortunately. I'm not entirely comfortable with the trade-off, but I think the risks are too great to start playing that kind of game.

[salguine]

8. I'm guessing you weren't disappeared into one of Cheney's torture dungeons.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. I'm guessing you have a very vague idea of the collapse of civil society

:shrug:

[rhett o rick]

4. If doing what is right divides the country, then DIVIDE THE FRIGGIN COUNTRY

we have to do what is right and that is prosecute. If it starts a civil war then lets go for it. What President Obama is doing is yielding to the threat of terrorists. The republiCon party will have a fit if we prosecute. Damn the torpedoes, full friggin speed ahead.

I am so very sick of the way the Democrats in Congress are so afraid of republiCons. Makes me sick to my stomach.

[murielm99]

5. Obama has done a lot for someone who has been in office

for such a short time. He has made his priorities clear.

I know that many sensible moderates and conservatives in my area did some soul-searching and crossed the aisle to vote for Obama. A surprising number of them were open enough about it to take a Democratic ballot in the primary. Obama will need these people in the future.

I lived through the Watergate era. I wanted to see Nixon held accountable in some way. I did not want to see him in jail, but I wanted something more than a pardon. I was surprised to learn that my Republican neighbors felt even more strongly about this than I did. Many of them were very, very angry about the pardon.

We do need some sort of accountability. Let's wait and see if Obama can come up with something meaningful without setting a drastic precedent. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[localroger]

17. He is waiting for us to make him do it

It's the same with single payer health care and gay rights. He knows he doesn't have the pull to get these things done, and that moving too aggressively on them will hurt causes he can get done, and he is not in the business of looking like a fool because he overreached. What he could get done he has gotten done; for the rest he is accumulating capital. He will move if and when he feels the tectonic plates have put him in a position to succeed, and not one second before.

I am sure he wants you to yell about the things he's disappointed you on. If there is enough yelling he can go to the podium and say "I have heard the voice of the people, and I'm changing course." One of the most refreshing things about Obama is that he is not afraid to admit that he was wrong. In fact I think he is willing to plan to do that strategically, setting up a position for future movement. And I think that is exactly what he is doing now.

w/r/t the CIA, he is probably mindful of the lesson of Jimmy Carter. Carter made it clear from the outset he didn't like a lot of what the CIA did, and so they were at best ineffective for him. They don't have to assassinate you to sabotage your administration; all they have to do is fail spectacularly when you actually need them to do something they should be doing. So he has let them know he is not going to throw them under the bus. He'll hold out a bit for them. And should, say, substantial public pressure (perhaps generated by those very UN-redacted document releases) build up enough, he can shrug and say "sorry guys," and they will probably forgive him for doing what we all think he should have done in the first place -- but for which, had he done so, the other agents would not have forgiven him.

[mmonk]

6. Is there a politician clause in the Constitution because I haven't found it?

[HughMoran]

7. This is the "obvious" part of the story that often gets overlooked in arguments

I don't agree with not prosecuting the criminal torturers in the Bush administration, but when I hear that officials in other countries are just now being held accountable for war crimes (killing 100,000's of opponents) committed over 10 years ago, I realize how good we have it in this country. If it takes more than a few months before indictments are handed down, I can handle that. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

[bvar22]

10. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph....

...is for good men to do nothing."---Burke

Is this the course you want Obama to follow ?

[npk]

12. Ofcourse not.

I do believe in time we will see all this play out. I believe President Obama understands that there is a lot at stake right now and even over the next five to six years. Obama may believe that a more unified nation will make it easier for these ideas to come about. Health care, energy, high speed rail, Obama will need support for these issue, even support from outside the Democratic party. I do not condone letting anyone get away with a crime. Sometimes though you have to look at the bigger picture and do what is most important at this moment. Obama has taken a stance before the nation and the world when he said that the United State of America "Does not Torture." These officials in the Bush administration will never again serve in politics. They are all finished. I am not saying that makes up for it. But it is a start. Maybe a more concrete resolution will come down the road.

[mix]

11. interesting claim

"While indicting former President Bush and his top administration officials would certainly make all of us very happy, it would no doubt divide the country sharply."

How so?

[npk]

13. IMO it would divide the country.

There are a great many people in this country that would not support President Bush indicted on charges of war crimes. Likewise for his top officials. There are moderates on both sides of the political spectrum that believe it would do more harm to America by creating a sharp divide. There would be moderates in the senate and the house that may view this as retribution or simply going to far. It could cause Obama to lose support for many issues that he plans to present. There are a lot of moderates that voted for Obama in 2008 who would not like to see former President Bush and his administration put on trial for War crimes, at least not right now. It would cause a division in the country. Maybe Obama will build support with the release of these memos. Maybe then when some of these moderates see what is in these memos it could change their minds. Then Obama may have more support. That may be what the President is thinking.

[mix]

18. Your argument and mine differ

in that you see this issue in terms of what is best for Obama.

I see it in terms of what is best for the country.

That is the difference between politics and ethics.

[Political Heretic]

14. Thanks, but we already understand the reasons why Obama not likely to do what's right.

On this issue. Thanks for the refresher I guess.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cornermouse]

16. If you refuse to investigate torture and prosecute those

involved then you can expect to see it happen again. Think about it.

[nod factor]

19. I am an anti-idealist

and ever since I followed his progress, learnt his history, I have always thought of Obama as the quintessential politician. Yet I think he is THE most capable person to lead the world in these tough times, bar fucking none. Having said that, I must admit that those who were so willing to swallow hope and change and turning the beltway on its head should not appreciate his obvious political moves. You SHOULD be disappointed, but hey, you can always vote in Ron Paul next time.