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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:17 PM
Original message
"Dealing With a Disgrace-President Obama strikes a wise balance in coming to terms with the torture"
Editorial

Dealing With a Disgrace
President Obama strikes a wise balance in coming to terms with the torture of terrorism suspects.


Friday, April 17, 2009

THE OBAMA administration acted courageously and wisely yesterday with its dual actions on interrogation policy. The pair of decisions -- one essentially forgiving government agents who may have committed heinous acts they were told were legal, the other signaling that such acts must never again be condoned by the United States -- struck exactly the right balance.

The administration announced that it would not seek to press criminal charges against CIA operatives who participated in enhanced interrogations of terrorism suspects during the Bush administration. "It would be unfair to prosecute dedicated men and women working to protect America for conduct that was sanctioned in advance by the Justice Department," Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said in a statement.

At the same time, the Justice Department released and repudiated four more Bush-era memos from the Office of Legal Counsel that provided the legal justification for such extreme interrogations. An Aug. 1, 2002, OLC memo endorsed the legality of 10 techniques the CIA considered for use against al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida. Some techniques were mild, such as holding the detainee's face or grasping him by the lapels to grab his attention. Others were despicable, such as waterboarding, in which water is poured over a prisoner's cloth-covered face to simulate drowning, or sleep deprivation for up to 11 days. Eleven days! A May 10, 2005, memo gave the legal thumbs up to confining a detainee in a cramped, dark box for up to eight hours at a time and up to 18 hours a day. Some techniques were simply bizarre, such as placing a caterpillar into a confined box holding Mr. Zubaida -- who was believed to be afraid of insects -- as long as the insect did not sting and Mr. Zubaida was not led to believe that it was capable of stinging.

By repudiating the memos, the Obama administration has again seized the high ground and restored some of the honor lost over the past few years. President Obama's actions not only restore confidence that this country will not torture, but he has also strengthened the nation's moral authority in condemning these heinous acts wherever they occur.

Yet the decision to forgo prosecutions should not prevent -- and perhaps should even encourage -- further investigation about the circumstances that gave rise to torture. What has become clear as more of the so-called torture memos are released is that common sense and established legal doctrine were often contorted to justify abhorrent techniques. An OLC memo dated May 30, 2005, and released yesterday reveals that at that time, the CIA had custody of 94 detainees and had used a variety of enhanced interrogation techniques against 28. All the techniques were deemed legal as long as they did not inflict prolonged or severe physical or mental pain. More light needs to be shed on how decisions were made and why. And more information is needed on who in the Bush administration made the ultimate decision to authorize the use of techniques that have long been considered torture and a violation of domestic and international legal strictures. A commission like the one that investigated the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks would likely provide the best vehicle for such an exploration.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/16/AR2009041603911.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. thank you NT
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Refusing to prosecute the war crime of torture is also a crime. n/t
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Hanse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Damn spaniards.
Something should be done about them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. That headline was misleading. The judge can still go forward
just as he did with Pinochet, over the prosecutor's head.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Should Barack Obama be impeached and tried for the crime of not prosecuting?
Is that the best solution in your opinion?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. When I think a president should be impeached, you'll know, Mr. Moran.


You won't have to ask me. Is that as clear as possible?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I asked if you thought it was the best solution - since it is a crime
To be consistent with the argument that no criminal should go free, he must be prosecuted for his crime - agreed?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Please go hang your crappy logic somewhere where it won't embarrass you
or inconvenience anyone else.

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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. OK, so you're giving up on your hyperbolic argument
That's cool.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. My argument isn't hyperbolic in any way. It is literally a crime
not to prosecute torture. That's the law of the land since we signed onto Geneva.

But nice try, making this about me. What are you, twelve?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. So then if it's a crime not to prosecute torture, then Barack Obama must be prosecuted - correct?
Please, I'm just asking for consistency in your argument if it's not indeed hyperbole.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. There is no inconsistency in my argument because I'm not making one.
I simply pointed out the fact of the law.

Go read the torture convention for yourself.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm



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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. You didn't point this out "simply out of fact of the law". You were making a very clear point
Why not simply state it as you meant it "If Barack Obama doesn't prosecute the torturers, then he himself is a criminal - essentially condoning torture in violation of the Geneva Convention"
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I stand by my statement of fact and you can stand by your projection of motive.


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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Oh, it's an obvious interpretation of what you said
Projection my ass...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Yes, yours. n/t
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Do you think the torturers should not be prosecuted? nm
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Wasn't what I asked, but yes, of course I do. Now, do you think Obama should be prosecuted?
Since he apparently isn't going to prosecute them, and it's a crime, shouldn't he be impeached and prosecuted?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Only if we are truly a nation of laws. nm
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Cool n/t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. provide some evidence for that claim- other than Turley who jumped the shark
with his nutso testifying for the impeachment and prosecution of President Clinton. Seriously, I see this claim a lot, but I don't see the evidence backing it up. I think it's a little more complex than the binary crowd here insists.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. And what happens the next time the CIA goes to far?
Will they at least have to sit on the naughty chair for 5 minutes?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Evidently not.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Why did you post a thoughtful piece in this forum?
;)

He's taking the right approach, in my opinion.

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'll tell you, I had to think twice about whether or not I wanted to bother but I decided to do it
anyway. :)
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Washington Post.
"nuff" said.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. You're just filled to the brim with snark today!
What are you like when you're in a bad mood?

:rofl:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. I'm having visions of bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Libby,
Hadley, Feith, Wolfowitz, hillbilly "minutemen" with no teeth, rednecks with flags, Pearle, Addington, Yoo, and other assorted people smiling. Ask me tomorrow when I can see straight.
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. agree
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. I've noticed threads like this attract the complainers like flies to shit
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
31. Yeah. This country would be so much better off without all those complainers
whining about torture and shit.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
17. This is horse shit. The sadistic torturers knew full well that what they were doing was
against the law. Some stupid memo written by Gonzo and Yoo aint worth shit. To forgive these sadistic torturers is a crime. Banging someones head against the wall mulitple times because Gonzo said it was ok, just don't cut it.

And what about those that were tortured to death? Not mentioned much. How do we rationalize that?
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. Sick fucks implemented the torture policy.
How many here could do the direct physical acts to another human in real life?

The torture started before the legal memos anyway.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. Church Committee
Nothing new is under the sun just worse.

"The Church Committee is the common term referring to the United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, a U.S. Senate committee chaired by Senator Frank Church (D-ID) in 1975. A precursor to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the committee investigated intelligence gathering for illegality by the CIA and FBI after certain activities had been revealed by the Watergate affair."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
34. What's the harm in overlooking corruption in government ...
when you have the government country's existence to defend?
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