Al Giordano's response to Naomi Klein's 'A Lexicon of Disappointment' article

[Jackeens]

Adelante mentioned the Giordano article in this thread -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8353819&mesg_id=8354020

- but I thought it was worth highlighting in a thread of its own, it's pretty strong stuff - whether you agree with it or not.

The Naomi Klein article is here: http://www.naomiklein.org/articles/2009/04/lexicon-disappointment


You and What Movement?
A Response to Naomi Klein

By Al Giordano
An Opinion Column

April 18, 2009

Naomi Klein is suffering, along with some other sectors of the academic North American left, an existential crisis.

In a recent column she published in The Nation and in The Huffington Post, she complained about “the awkward in-between space in which many US progressive movements find themselves” now that Barack Obama is president of the United States.

Revealing a bizarre contempt and college-educated condescension toward a vast multi-racial swathe of progressive supporters and sympathizers of Obama and his movement, Klein seeks to explain us away as dupes. We (I use the first person plural proudly and without hesitation) are, according to Klein, part of a “superfan culture,” that, she says, believes we can “save the world if we all just hope really hard,” and that suffers from the following psychological ailments: “Hopeover… hoper coaster… hope fiend… hopebreak… and hopelash.”

Her theory, that progressive Obama supporters are now inflicted by buyer’s remorse, flies contrary to all objective measurement. The pollster.com aggregate of all recent public opinion surveys finds that 61.8 percent of Americans view Obama (less than 100 days into his presidency) favorably, compared to 32.9 percent that view him unfavorably. As Gallup notes, President Obama’s first-quarter average favorability of 63 percent exceeds that of the first three months of his eight immediate predecessors: Presidents Bush II, Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon or Johnson.

Ah, but Klein is talking about “progressives,” so let’s take a look at the hard data that is available. Separate out the crosstabs, and those numbers are even sky higher among progressive demographic groups. Among Democrats, according to an early April Pew survey, 88 percent view the young president favorably, so it’s not really clear who Klein is talking about, imagining or inventing out of thin air when she devotes an entire column to claim a non-existent demographic trend.

The rest here: http://www.narconews.com/Issue57/article3498.html


Info on Giordano here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Giordano

[BlooInBloo]

1. Heh. If you just *define* a "true progressive" as somebody who voted for and now hates Obama....

Then there's no problem.

:rofl:

[HopeOverFear]

2. You beat me to it I was about to post this!

My subject line was gonna be: "Al Giordano tells Naomi Klein the FUCK off" :rofl:

[Jackeens]

3. LOL! (Left a message for you on the original thread)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

20. huh? What in this article, precisely, is racist, bigoted, misinformed

and in line with repuke talking points Personally, I don't like either of these articles terribly though both make some good points.

[omega minimo]

48. You haven't read it, then

[cali]

64. I read every word of it. And it is not racist, bigoted or elitest.

I don't agree with his every point, but it's none of the things you're calling it, and YOU can't point out a single damn sentence in the piece that is what you say it is.

[omega minimo]

69. it's in the other thread Cali and that's the last time I'll try to get you to join those syllables

[SemiCharmedQuark]

78. Did Al Giordano come to DU and rewrite his post in the other thread?

Because otherwise I fail to see how Al Giordano's essay is racist or RW.

[scarletwoman]

53. I'm sorry, friend, but I honestly think you're really misreading Al Giordano.

I starting reading his work many years ago on narconews.com, he is one of the most courageous, sincerely progressive journalists around. He is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a racist or a bigot or inclined to push "republicon talking points".

I think Naomi Klein made some good points badly. I think your thread where you attempted to dig through her rather condescending language to get to the most useful part of her message was well done.

I also think that Al Giordano is making some good points. I think both points of view can be accomodated, and useful ideas gleaned from both pieces.

Peace,
sw

[SemiCharmedQuark]

55. "I think Naomi Klein made some good points badly"

Bingo. I understand what she is trying to say. I think Giordano does too. But I think the manner in which she went about trying to explain her point was poor.

We're on the verge of something really great here. I know many people that voted for the very first time in 2008. As I said, I spent today flea marketing and I saw people talking about politics on a Sunday morning in Alsip and on Halsted in Chicago. Young and old, they are excited. We need to work together to, as Klein pointed out, push towards true meaningful change.

[omega minimo]

68. Good point and if we are to work together, it's helpful not to reinforce damaging stereotypes and

misrepresent the work of valuable voices and writers on "our" side.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

74. This is also true.

Giordano could have made his point more artfully and less antagonistically. Both writers made good points in a less than artful manner.

[omega minimo]

81. "less than artful" -- that's the prollem!

:spray: :toast:

[scarletwoman]

73. I have been advocating for YEARS that if there is to be a true progressive movement in this country,

it has go beyond focusing solely on electoral politics.

The fact that Obama's presidential bid got so many people excited and involved and newly politically aware presents the best opportunity we've had in decades. The task at hand is to channel that energy and interest into something enduring with the ability to transform our entire social and political landscape.

I think both Naomi and Al get this.

sw

[omega minimo]

82. Using "their" ideas to bludgeon each other doesn't channel that energy into something enduring or

transformative.

Well put as ever, SW :yourock:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

83. Especially because both agree on the CORE of the issue.

[omega minimo]

85. Well there it is.

[Odin2005]

166. And that's exactly why we on the left haven't been getting anywhere since the 70s.

too much rhetoric over things that obscure the fact that most of us on the left have the same ultimate goal.

[Odin2005]

165. That's why Obama stated that it's about "us" not him.

If Obama betrays us we will simply dump him and the movement goes on.

[omega minimo]

65. Thank you scarletwoman. Unfortunately, he is reinforcing divisive stereotypes in order to put Klein

down, so it's wrong on multiple levels and distressing that there is so much enthusiasm for that divisiveness on DU.

:hug:

[scarletwoman]

87. I honestly don't see that. He's advocating for community organizing, for really getting down among

the workers and the historically disenfranchised. I don't see that as being divisive, I think that's precisely what's needed if there is to be an effective progressive movement.

And really, it's not the least bit contradictory to what Naomi said about building "an independent political movement... fierce enough to produce programs capable of meeting the current crises..."

They're both ultimately talking about the same thing, getting the People organized in order to make demands of their government.

sw

[omega minimo]

89. "Revealing a bizarre contempt and college-educated condescension toward a vast multi-racial swathe"

"Revealing a bizarre contempt and college-educated condescension toward a vast multi-racial swathe of progressive supporters and sympathizers of Obama and his movement, Klein seeks to explain us away as dupes."

Some here object and react viscerally to one buzzword or another: "Superfan" "Obamanut" .....


I find his first line, introducing his premise and statistics to be incredibly charged and offensive, on many levels.

Somewhere in there it broadbrushes liberals who are comrades and associates us with "bizarre contempt," "condescension toward a vast multi-racial swathe," "explain us away as dupes......."

It's pure Us vs. Them, broken down on race, class and education lines and it is offensive to anyone who doesn't buy into or perpetuate his cliched view.

[scarletwoman]

92. Well, I think Naomi's language WAS condescending. At the very least it was unhelpful.

Again, I don't see what Al wrote as divisive. He was pointing out the difference between rhetoric, and actual action on the community level. I think his analysis has it right.

Peace,
sw

[omega minimo]

94. then you may not be among those being sideswiped in the opener.............

Even if her language was condescending, that divisive, accusatory and bigoted response is overwrought, dangerous and inflammatory.

[scarletwoman]

96. I clearly don't see what you're seeing in the Giordano piece.

I think your interpretation is very much mistaken. Al Giordano is someone who is unequivocally on our side.

I will leave it at that, I have no wish to carry on an argument.

Peace,
sw

[omega minimo]

97. his divisive pronouncements stand and reinforced cliches poison perceptions/discussion

[The Magistrate]

67. Well Said, My Friend!

[scarletwoman]

79. Dear Magistrate! It's WONDERFUL to "see" you again!!!!

It seems like it's been a very long time -- although if you've been here in GD-P for awhile I would have missed it, since I rarely set foot in this forum.

I hope you are well, I'm so glad you're still here!

:hug:
sw

[The Magistrate]

84. The Feeling Is Mutual, Ma'am

My presence is more a lurk than anything nowadays: the major electoral battle having been won, the daily give and take here does not seem so important. It is going to take time, and subtle manipulation, to put things in our country onto a new course, and snap judgements simply clutter consideration of the real flow of events.

I agree whole-heartedly with your view that we need to organize beyond simple electoral politics to achieve major changes. But in doing so, people should remain on solid foundation, and recognize that a turn has begun: it needs to be accentuated and intensified, not denounced for not going faster. The focus needs to be on improving the economic condition of working people, and kept there ruthlessly.

"Money changes everything."

[scarletwoman]

90. These days, I'm inclined more toward lurking as well.

The focus needs to be on improving the economic condition of working people, and kept there ruthlessly.

That says it all.

Thank you!
sw

[omega minimo]

91. Hence all the banking threads that were "critical" of Obama

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

93. Eyes on the prize, comrades, eyes on the prize.

;)

[Number23]

106. "people should remain on solid foundation, and recognize that a turn has begun:

...it needs to be accentuated and intensified, not denounced for not going faster." I simply could not agree more.

Beautiful. Brilliant. Thanks for that.

[Odin2005]

170. Same here!

Obama's no messiah, he is the trigger of change, WE THE PEOPLE have to bring the change, which is a point he made.

[Jackeens]

107. Ah Jesus - The Magistrate? I want your babies.

[Odin2005]

169. Magistrate!!! Where the Hell have you been all this time!?!

How ya doin'?

[DevonRex]

114. There IS no common ground to be found in writings that include "fan" in them.

It's a calculated insult and she knows it. She can fuck off.

[scarletwoman]

5. "progressive supporters and sympathizers of Obama and his movement" What "movement"?

Seriously, what is Obama's "movement"? ("Obama and his movement")

I saw lots of people work hard to get him elected, but as for some kind of enduring "movement" -- where is it? Who is it? What are the goals?

sw

(edited to fix a tag)

[NYCGirl]

6. Al Giordano is a treasure. His blog, The Field, was a must-read during the

primaies.

[omega minimo]

8. and apparently a racist and elitist using Republicon talking points. You people are fallin for this?

:wow:

[Cha]

14. Apparently not. n/t

[cali]

21. what are the racist and elitest talking points?

[geek tragedy]

24. The ones that don't bash Obama. n/t

[omega minimo]

27. see the thread this TOXIC OP came from, please.

[Jackeens]

34. "Toxic"? Are you saying Giordano should be censored?

Why not just let people read it for themselves and make up their own minds about it? If they think it's, well, "toxic" they will say as much.

[omega minimo]

44. By transferring this from the other thread, you have proven that people don't read for themselves

and make up their own minds about the Klein piece, they latch on to some bloggers version of reality and vote it up, simply because it's a put down of Klein, despite its ill logic, racism, anti-intellectualism, elitism, repetition of Right Wing talking points and despite prolly not having read the blog entry anyway.

YYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY

you know it's toxic and that's why you did it

[Jackeens]

47. Ah, so you DO want it censored? Okay.

[Name removed]

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[dionysus]

141. anything that doesn't bash obama is "divisive" and "toxic" to you. you're transparent as glass...

:rofl:

[omega minimo]

146. nonsense

[Tarheel_Dem]

122. I don't get the point of your repeating those claims? "Racist & elitist?"..

You're working overtime to discredit this piece, as you're obviously a "fan" of Klein, but her piece was condescending tripe. To dismiss the president's supporters as mere "fans" is an insult, and I suspect she meant it to be.

Right on Al!

[Pirate Smile]

7. more

There is currently no quicker way for white progressives to further divide themselves from African-American, Hispanic-American, working class and poor Americans – all sectors without which serious and successful progressive movements in the US would be impossible – than to invent derogatory psychobabble terms for us because we do not share Klein’s tendencies to feel somehow demoralized by the country’s first African-American head of state, and demonstrably its most progressive since Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

That such complaint comes after less than 100 days, when the President has just eased the Cuba embargo that was foolishly embraced by Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II, is nothing less than pathetic. In the same week, Obama made the classified torture memos public (and as any working journalist or investigator knows, every department of his administration now responds quickly – usually overnight – to our Freedom of Information Act requests for information; a sea change from all previous administrations). The passage of Obama’s economic Stimulus bill marked the single largest expenditure ever on jobs and social programs like unemployment insurance, Medicaid and public education in the history of any country. He has already made the orderly withdrawal of US combat troops from Iraq official policy with a timeline that has most of it done before the 2012 midterm elections. And in three short months, Obama has restored the principle of progressive taxation to the United States.

-snip-
I quite agree with Klein’s belief that “demanding” is better than “hoping” when it comes to changing public policy. But where I get off her bus is upon her inference that we who are supportive of – and more happy than not about – Obama’s presidency somehow believe differently. Her claim only demonstrates her gross ignorance toward the important sector of the left (including parts of the Obama movement) that are community organizers. “Demanding” is necessary but without “organizing” to back it up it is merely an act of intellectual masturbation. It accomplishes nothing. It never has won a single battle. And that’s why, until 2008, the US left in particular – so busy demanding without doing the hard work of organizing – went through at least three “lost decades.”

The problem with too much of the “activist left” in North America is that so many of its adherents don’t really want to do the hard work of community organizing. I wonder: when was the last time that Klein went door-to-door, or staffed a phone bank, or otherwise reached out directly to real people demographically different from her? Any journalist or writer that hasn’t, at minimum, accompanied organizers doing that real work of change should shut the fuck up when it comes to opining about “the people.” They don’t have a clue as to who “the people” are. Activism that doesn’t involve one or more of those tasks does not rise to the level or effectiveness of organizing. And those that don’t do it really have no idea where the public is at: the masses (or “the multitude” in current jargon) are imaginary cartoon characters to these people. Their view of us is as elitist as it is condescending.

[omega minimo]

9. ain't divisiveness a hoot?

[Cha]

16. Naomi Klein

is big on that divisive crap.

[omega minimo]

19. Look don't drink the Kool Aid, please.

[cali]

66. oh fucking please. disagreeing with you or Klein is not de facto

kool aid drinking. pathetic.

[omega minimo]

86. saying she is "big on that divisive crap" is

[Cha]

76. As you're drowning in it..

No worries, I don't like it.

[DevonRex]

134. And now with the Kool-Aid insult. I call utter bullshit on you.

[cali]

26. and the name calling Klein did in such an elitest manner is just dandy?

your take on this is mind boggling.

[omega minimo]

29. apparently you haven't read my take on it. see the thread this TOXIC OP came from

[mkultra]

117. you are the only one here being divisive.

[SoxFan]

60. Physician, heal thyself

[omega minimo]

70. see the other thread, Beavis. Duh. May be the last time I try that sort of thing here.

Ya'll seem to love the hate.

[HopeOverFear]

13. whew chile that last paragraph is the TRUTH!

this right 'chere:

The problem with too much of the “activist left” in North America is that so many of its adherents don’t really want to do the hard work of community organizing. I wonder: when was the last time that Klein went door-to-door, or staffed a phone bank, or otherwise reached out directly to real people demographically different from her? Any journalist or writer that hasn’t, at minimum, accompanied organizers doing that real work of change should shut the fuck up when it comes to opining about “the people.” They don’t have a clue as to who “the people” are. Activism that doesn’t involve one or more of those tasks does not rise to the level or effectiveness of organizing. And those that don’t do it really have no idea where the public is at: the masses (or “the multitude” in current jargon) are imaginary cartoon characters to these people. Their view of us is as elitist as it is condescending.

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

22. Want some cheese to go with that . . . . ? n/t

[omega minimo]

31. Thank you Beavis, I'll pass.

[HopeOverFear]

37. I have that person on ignore LOL so I was spared from teh stupid

[geek tragedy]

41. I gave it a little leeway to see if there

was a possibility I'd miss something.

Nossir.

[HopeOverFear]

42. LOL!

[omega minimo]

45. your friend is lying b/c was just in the thread OP'd this BS came from. Which you didn't read.

[cali]

36. all YOU are doing in this thead is throwing out accusations or right wing and bigot

with NOTHING to back it up. It's a truly ugly thing to do. And if you actually think there was anything right wing about that particular passage, well, you really are in need of help.

[omega minimo]

40. Cali. Get a grip. SEE THE OP THAT THIS TOXIC DIVISIVE RACIST "ELITIST" CRAP OP CAME FROM

[cali]

61. ok, you really are loosing it. you aren't even making sense here.

and I don't know what toxic OP you're referring to, but the piece by Giordano isn't toxic or racist or bigoted.

[DevonRex]

137. I love Al. nt

[Odin2005]

172. The "intellectual masturbation" remark is right on target.

Demanding and protesting is not enough, something many people of a certain generation whose name starts with a B have yet to understand. You need on-the-ground, grass-roots activity. Something Obama, who read Alinsky, understands.

[The Magistrate]

10. An Excellent Article, Ma'am: Thank You For Sharing It

[omega minimo]

25. How do you justify the racist and elitist and RW Talking Point aspects, Dear Magistrate?

Perhaps you can explain it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

30. Please explain which RW talking points you mean?

[omega minimo]

32. Have you read the piece?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

39. Yes. I don't see RW talking points.

I don't agree with everything in the article, but I really appreciate SOMEONE putting into words what I see as a growing division between working democrats and progressives.

We are working towards common goals. But if I read Klein's article to any one in my family, they would be offended and pissed off beyond words.

If you are arguing that any criticism of the left is RW, then I could likewise argue that saying that Obama's election came from SUPERFANS is RW.

[omega minimo]

50. oh holy shit. if this is as good as it gets, no wonder we fight all the time. Thank you SCQ

[The Magistrate]

46. None Stood Out To Me, Sir

He points out that the 'academic left', for lack of a better short reference, has somewhat divorced itself from working people, and may, in pursuing lines of purist dis-enchantment with President Obama, aggravate this even today. It is hardly a new observation; people have been pointing it out since the early seventies at a minimum, and it is a real problem, that greatly hampers the prospects for pressing left and progressive policies and programs on a national scale. A much better course for persons seriously unhappy with developments in Washington from a left perspective would be hammering what once were called 'boll weevils' and now are known as 'Blue Dogs' within the Democratic Party, and calling them out on their allegiance to rightist policies regarding labor, taxes, and social welfare. Very little good is achieved by simply complaining President Obama is not doing everything the Berkley City Council could pass with a slim majority next Tuesday....

[omega minimo]

54. thank you, worthy of a reply and then the stupid snark at the end about Berkeley

all these cliches, including the racist and elitist and academic ones in this bloggers spew do not help anyone.

[The Magistrate]

57. There Is Nothing Racist or Elitist In The Article, Sir

There is some element of criticism of elitism, and perhaps even some unconscious racism, within the more affluently white and best educated elements of the left itself, but that is the opposite of what you are declaring....

[omega minimo]

62. Wrong.

[The Magistrate]

63. Hard To Refute Such A Detailed And Well-Developed Rebuttal, Sir....

"There's just got to be a pony around here somewhere!"

[omega minimo]

72. You lost me at Berkeley, Ma'am

[The Magistrate]

75. Took A Wrong Turn At Albequerque, Myself, Sir....

"I came to Casablanca for the waters...."

[Cha]

11. I have Al Giordano and

Narconews in my address bar..as a handy antidote to the current scuttlebutt..thank you, Jackeens, for these links to his analysis of the Naomi Klein whinefest.

"There is currently no quicker way for white progressives to further divide themselves from African-American, Hispanic-American, working class and poor Americans – all sectors without which serious and successful progressive movements in the US would be impossible – than to invent derogatory psychobabble terms for us because we do not share Klein’s tendencies to feel somehow demoralized by the country’s first African-American head of state, and demonstrably its most progressive since Franklin Delano Roosevelt."

[omega minimo]

33. So that's how you see "white progressives" including your fellow DUers?

[rucky]

12. This is what I took away from Klein's article...

And that pretty much says it all. Hope was a fine slogan when rooting for a long-shot presidential candidate. But as a posture toward the president of the most powerful nation on earth, it is dangerously deferential. The task as we move forward (as Obama likes to say) is not to abandon hope but to find more appropriate homes for it--in the factories, neighborhoods and schools where tactics like sit-ins, squats and occupations are seeing a resurgence.

Political scientist Sam Gindin wrote recently that the labor movement can do more than protect the status quo. It can demand, for instance, that shuttered auto plants be converted into green-future factories, capable of producing mass-transit vehicles and technology for a renewable energy system. "Being realistic means taking hope out of speeches," he wrote, "and putting it in the hands of workers."

Which brings me to the final entry in the lexicon.

Hoperoots. Sample sentence: "It's time to stop waiting for hope to be handed down, and start pushing it up, from the hoperoots."

I don't think there are too many progressives that can argue with that. Klein always states a problem in dramatic fashion, then brings home a sober and viable solution. Al should've read the article all the way through.

[Name removed]

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[firedupdem]

15. Rec'd...thanks! n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. Thank you for posting this.

I like Naomi, but the "superfan" designation was insulting. I was just at the Alsip Flea Market. I saw and heard dozens of people talking about Obama and his policies. My family has become more involved in politics since his election. It is hurtful that all of a sudden if you disagree with Klein you're labeled a superfan and talked down to as if you are too stupid to know what's for your own good.

[FrenchieCat]

23. Minorities who favor Barack Obama anywhere from 70 to 90%

must simply be stoopid fans. Thanks to Naomi Klein, now we know! :eyes:

[firedupdem]

28. yep...that's the only reason we voted for him. I wonder why I didn't

get so geeked about Al or Jesse?

[omega minimo]

38. The worst part of this level of willful ignorance is all the diligent, insightful work Ms. Klein has

done on ALL our behalf.

The racism in your comment is beyond appalling.

[firedupdem]

43. What racism? You keep saying that with nothing to back it up.

You also keep talking about RW talking points and you were the first person to drop the "kool aid" crap. Her article was insulting. She blew it with the "super fan" crap.

[omega minimo]

56. read the thread this TOXIC BS was imported from. and by all means, think for yourself.

[firedupdem]

59. I've read it and I always think for myself. I think you're having

real problems with that.

[omega minimo]

77. If you read it you wouldn't have asked #46

:shrug:

[Tarheel_Dem]

123. It's imaginary. This poster has been called upon, numerous times, to

provide evidence of "racism, elitism, & rightwing talking points" and he/she continues to point people to that wreck of a thread he/she started. I say, put up or shut up.

[October]

178. Yeah...lots of condescension but no detailed replies

I keep trying to find a post that goes into some depth of his argument, but all I see are snarky retorts.

[cali]

71. that's fucking it. how dare you? how fucking dare you accuse

someone of racism who didn't utter a racist thing? How fucking dare you say that this article is racist when it so clearly is not. Disgusting.

[omega minimo]

80. I don't use the term "reverse racism" another RW talking point. There must be a better term.

The broad brush attitudes in the blog post and in the comments here are damaging to all of us, Cali.

When you calm down from your adrenaline disgust rush, you may recognize my attempts to find common ground, including recently with you on the topic of common ground.

[cali]

88. your uncritical adulation of Ms. Klein, is just sad. n/t

and your accusations of racism where there is none, are beneath contempt.

[omega minimo]

95. and you're misinterpretations are stunning.

[DevonRex]

138. And I guess I voted for him out of

"white guilt" and since I still support him I must be a total freakin' idiot.

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[RoyGBiv]

99. Excellent article ...

Thank you for posting.

[Name removed]

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[Jackeens]

104. Speak of the Devil.....how's the birth cert search going?

[Number23]

105. Damn, who rocks harder today?

Al Giordano or Jackeens??? :shrug:

This OP single-handedly responds to two different posts in GD-P right now. Well done.

Happy to Kick. Happy to Rec. Happy to Bookmark. Just happy, happy, happy... :fistbump:

[Number23]

108. #23 again, Jackeens. This whole thread is just a great big bowl of Epic WIN!

I laughed! I cried. But mostly I laughed. :)

Thanks so much for this. I cannot hit the Bookmark Thread button fast enough. God, I love DU sometimes...

[Number23]

109. #23 yet again, Jackeens. You wouldn't by chance have saved any of those

"deleted messages" would you?? I'd HATE to think of the deliciousness that I may be missing... :)

[jefferson_dem]

110. Thanks for posting. Good stuff.

Klein's whiny rant pissed me off when I read it. This is one of the finest rebuttals I've seen in a while.

[omega minimo]

111. good thing it was prepackaged and no one here had to rebutt it themselves.

:thumbsup:

[jefferson_dem]

112. I was curious about the defensive posture of your post until I looked through this thread...

Perhaps you should respect the "first rule of holes" principle.

:thumbsup:

[omega minimo]

115. Well the post saying "Naomi can fuck off from now" shows where the holes (in common sense) are

:hi:

[DevonRex]

113. Naomi can fuck off from now on, as far as I'm concerned. nt

[firedupdem]

116. DevonRex! I missed my buddy! I should have known you would

clear up the entire thing quite nicely. Yes, she can fuck off!

[DevonRex]

136. Hey firedupdem! Oh, but apparently I have a logic problem, lol!!!

As IF Naomi doesn't know the "fan" meme is an insult. :eyes:

[Uzybone]

118. I love this excerpt.

"The problem with too much of the “activist left” in North America is that so many of its adherents don’t really want to do the hard work of community organizing. I wonder: when was the last time that Klein went door-to-door, or staffed a phone bank, or otherwise reached out directly to real people demographically different from her? Any journalist or writer that hasn’t, at minimum, accompanied organizers doing that real work of change should shut the fuck up when it comes to opining about “the people.” They don’t have a clue as to who “the people” are."

[omega minimo]

120. yeah, that's really great total divisive bullshit

:applause:

I wonder who many who are "loving it" ever "do the hard work of community organizing." or "have a clue as to who “the people” are."

[Realtalk]

119. Whew!

His response was dead on and should classify a grade A narcotic b/c it was that good...

[FrenchieCat]

121. It made me cry.....just a bit.

[Tarheel_Dem]

124. Smackdown of the Century? I resent being labeled a "superfan" simply...

because I support the president. Klein's piece was the most condescending piece of tripe I've read in a while at DU, and that's saying something for DU these days.

[DevonRex]

139. I do too. It was also intentionally insulting. For that, she'll get

nothing but contempt from me. Al said it all better than I could.

[Tarheel_Dem]

142. And contempt is precisely what is called for here. I don't envy her

position, as an activist, because the political climate has changed, and she's apparently searching for relevance in the new order. But pieces like hers, with namecalling, won't endear her to the left. She'll quickly find herself ostracized, and for good reason.

[DevonRex]

176. Let's hope so, eh? And your post was very well written, by the way.

I always enjoy reading your replies.

[Life Long Dem]

125. She stands united for president Obama.

:think:

[BlueEyedSon]

126. OMFG!!! Some people are to the *left* of Obama!

[cali]

127. hardly germane to the discussion.

but feel free to contiune posting inanities.

[omega minimo]

130. you have cali's permission

[NJmaverick]

128. The Naomi Kleins are the types of liberals that have caused liberals to be the minority for way too

long. She is a poster child for clueless entitled elitist. Ones that accomplished nothing but carrying themselves with an unworthy arrogance. Al G is dead on accurate about this. The Democrats and liberals need to wake up to the destructive mindset of people like her.

[omega minimo]

131. "She is a poster child for clueless entitled elitist."

Klein's essay may have been a misstep.

She has done a lot of solid work on behalf of Democrats, liberals and workers for decades.

This blogger succeeded in driving a wedge in b/w all who could be working together.

[NJmaverick]

135. I wouldn't argue that Klein is a doubled edged sword or even a loose cannon

I would strongly disagree with who is trying to drive the wedges. That would be Klien and the people supporting her latest OP. Those people supporting that outlandishly unrealistic and divisive commentary are exposing their bitterness and desire to see the Democrats fail. The Democrats have a clear leader now. So those that try to undermine that leader are teh ones that are guilty of creating wedges and destructive divisions.

[omega minimo]

145. Let's not drive the wedge ourselves.

With respect to the work she's done for decades on all our behalf, including those the blogger tries to permanently alienate from her, your statement above about "type of liberals" is judgmental and not convincing, except as more Us and Themism.

It is possible to read the Klein piece and not be consumed with hostility and defensiveness and see a constructive point, without "supporting her latest OP" or insulting those who are sensitive about the "lexicon." And to do so without "bitterness," "desire to see the Democrats fail" and "trying to undermine" " the clear leader."

Those sorts of attitude ARE wedges.


With all DU respect if this is what people want in the name of support and diversity, far be it from me to keep trying to offer middle ground.

[Spazito]

129. Very hard hitting rebuttal to the Klein article...

I have read both this and Naomi Klein's comments and find myself more supportive of the view presented by Mr. Giordano than that of Ms. Klein. Ms. Klein's article did come across to me as condescending, written with a tone of superiority that was grating. Mr. Giordano's article comes across as quite angry, lacking tact possibly but the message within his article was very clear and, overall, correct, imo.

[omega minimo]

132. "Hard hitting" like a blunt force trauma.

Hers was an original article. If it was a misstep, it was also something of a satire, with a good point in the center, and not as clever as she might have thought.

His was a blog rebuttal to an original article.

His message may be "very clear" and quite destructive.

He provided a billy club and a mouthpiece for those who could not respond to the original work on their own.

[Spazito]

133. I disagree n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

143. But he has the numbers to back him up

An 88% Democratic approval rating of Obama rather decimates Klein's contention that Obama is turning off progressives. http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1178/polarized-partisan-gap-in-obama-approval-historic

[omega minimo]

148. She didn't say that "Obama is turning off progressives"

"Whatever the last straw, a growing number of Obama enthusiasts are starting to entertain the possibility that their man is not, in fact, going to save the world if we all just hope really hard."


She said "a growing number of Obama enthusiasts."

Even the term "enthusiast" maybe be seen as insulting to some and I am very sorry that the sensitivity is such we cannot read objectively.

I'm also sorry I didn't understand how bad it was, when I tried to draw attention to part of the piece that could draw us together.

:thumbsup:

[stevenleser]

150. Omega, the big mistake you made here is

you continued an argument and feelings from one OP into another. This is not only (if I am not mistaken) against the rules, it is a virtually guaranteed way to make yourself seem like an angry and unhappy person as many folks have no idea why you are so upset.

If you treat this OP and the comments as unrelated to whatever other OP you are talking about, there is nothing untoward going on.

[Starry Messenger]

153. Actually this thread is a continuation of Omega's OP.

This thread is the rule breaker, as I understand the rules. The argument should have carried on in the context of the original posting of Klein's piece in Omega's thread.

[cali]

155. no, it's not. this thread is simply the posting of an article.

that it happened to be discussed in another thread, does not make posting it independently a violation of the rules. Not as I understand the rules, and clearly not as the mods understand the rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

156. No, it isn't.

It's a new thread started to discuss THIS article.

[Starry Messenger]

158. Why is there a link to the other thread in the OP?

Is that not a continuation? I've seen other threads locked for that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

160. Because it's giving credit to the person that found the article, not calling the OP out.

[Starry Messenger]

163. .

Well, like I said...I've seen other posts locked for that very same thing. Interesting to note, anyway.

[omega minimo]

161. which referenced and linked to the other thread and was supported with the worst DU tactics possible

suggesting the intention WAS to feed off the other thread into a flamebait derivative, ignoring the "common ground" intention of the other thread and divised to drive the wedge deeper a la an outside blogger.

The tribe has spoken.

:thumbsdown:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

162. The person who mentioned the other thread more than any other was *you*.

YOU called this thread racist and RW and every time you were asked for proof, you kept directing people to the other thread.

Further, if your commitment was truly to find the common ground, you would not have chosen one of the most inflammatory pieces of the article for your headline. Rather, you would have gotten to the gist of the argument: Change needs to blossom from the bottom *OR* you would have used Klein's actual headline.

[omega minimo]

167. I did NOT "choose one of the most inflammatory pieces of the article for your headline"

"YOU called this thread racist and RW and every time you were asked for proof, you kept directing people to the other thread."
Thank you for making the point that the "argument" didn't need to be siphoned off.... :spray:

Don't dare question my motives on common ground. No one here is that dense.

I presented it as cleanly and clearly and carefully as possible and that would be plain to anyone viewing it objectively.

What I missed -- and you insist I "would not have chosen" unless I had ill intentions -- was that even the sentence used as the title would be considered inflammatory by some here.

I can see how the "lexicon" would be. But the sentence is clear, in context, complete, an inviation to the concept and I DID NOT KNOW that "superfan culture" were VERBOTEN WORDS on DU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111

Those of us not invested in this violent reactionary position cannot possibly know every word combination that will ENFLAME people.

"Superfan" "Culture" "Superfan Culture" "If the Superfan Culture..............." "IF"

Mea culpa mea culpa mea culpa. May I have my Habeas Corpus back now?


"Rather, you would have gotten to the gist of the argument: Change needs to blossom from the bottom *OR* you would have used Klein's actual headline."

I presented the OP as I did, in good faith and in hope of avoiding the animosity over the "lexicon." That's why I objected to the HIJACKING.

I DID GET TO THE GIST OF THE ARGUMENT. Wasn't Klein's actual headline MORE inflammatory? Dunno MAYBE WHEN YOU TAKE THE TIME TO OP you can sort it out.


Your arrogant attitude and assumptions, criticizing someone who bothered OPing in the hope that GD: P could handle common ground rather than bitter infighting, further underscores what a huge waste of time it was.












"If the superfan culture that brought Obama to power is going to transform itself into independent"

[SemiCharmedQuark]

171. You had no idea that the word "superfan" would be radioactive on DU? Really?

Because it seems absolutely obvious to me that Superfan is as radioactive as "hater" "cheerleader" "Obot" "Poutrage" "Pony" etc.

Nefarious intentions? I don't think you had nefarious intentions...I worded poorly. But I do wonder how on *Earth* you can possibly be shocked that people reacted negatively to your OP.

Even in real life when you start off a conversation or speech poorly, odds are people are *not* going to listen to you or bother to tease out the point you are seeking. Multiply that kneejerk reaction by 10 on the internet. Multiply it by 100 when people are on a DEMOCRATIC board during a DEMOCRATIC administration.

[omega minimo]

183. you can't take my post at face value b/c you would have to question your own assumptions

Is there somewhere on the Homepage or the Forum page or Sign In that says DO NOT USE THE WORD SUPERFAN!!!11111

I explained the care and context in which I OP'd. A gracious person might admit that that word could be overlooked by someone neutral on this battle, someone unfamiliar with all the slings and arrows b/c they have mostly avoided those sort of flamefests IF the word actually already was part of DU's "lexicon" which it is ENTIRELY UNREASONABLE OF YOU TO ASSUME THAT EVERYONE IS "SUPPOSED" TO KNOW THAT.

I've said elsewhere, this impartial observer thought "superfan culture" referred to the groundswell of grassroots support and engagement. I DID NOT GET THE MEMO ON EVERYTHING WE'RE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE OFFENDED BY.

The intention was peaceful. That's not good enough.

Extra care was taken. That's not good enough.

The title was in "--," in context and encapsulated the notion of CHANGE for PROGRESS. That's not good enough.

The OP was well stated. That's not good enough.

BECAUSE THERE WAS ONE WORD in a sentence IN CONTEXT that SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE or ELSE!!!!!!111111

You can't see how that makes the "offended" look? How it further deteriorates and "degrades the discussion for everyone" b/c those who don't do the secret handshake right get handed their asses?

"Start off poorly?" Speaking of "condescending." Like I said, the energy I put into that OP (AND THE EFFORT TO BUILD A BRIDGE IN GD: P MY MISTAKE I AM VERY SORRY) is pointless in the face of the continuing SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS of those who have nothing better to do than tear it down.

Maybe you can do better.

[cali]

174. wow. you need to take a deep breath and quit with the martyred drama queen

stuff. It's getting both pitiful and embarrasing to witness.

[omega minimo]

182. It's so funny how all your accusations sound like you're talking about yourself

:spray:

[omega minimo]

159. We are talking about opportunities to drop defensive and divisive attitudes or perpetuate them

:hi:

If Ms. Klein made a misstep, reinforcing and further alienating "our side" from her and her work serves no good. His "racially tinged" broadbrush attacks serve no good.

People reacting to her misguided "lexicon" and missing the common point serve no good.

It shows how extreme our times have become.

:shrug:

[DevonRex]

140. I agree. Since I was angry myself at Naomi's condescending attitude

and use of the "fan" meme (she KNOWS it's an insult) I understand Al's anger. In fact, I think he probably held back a bit. I feel no such need so Naomi is nothing but a bitter ass.

[omega minimo]

144. It still seemed possible to look

at the core point that is common ground
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8353819

[namahage]

154. If finding common ground is what you seek

you might consider not slipping in a line that distinguishes "some of us":

Some of us do not need a "lexicon of disappointment" because we are not disappointed because we did not have extraordinary expectations in the first place.

What purpose does this serve, other than as an "I told you so"?

[omega minimo]

157. That is a perfectly reasonable and peaceful statement and I am VERY SORRY if you can't see that.

What purpose does it serve for you to pretend there was some ill intent?

That's really absurd.

[Jackeens]

164. Are racist comments on DU perfectly reasonable and peaceful too?

Just wonderin'.

[omega minimo]

168. Apparently the despicable tactics you used yesterday are mysteriously okay for you to inflict on DU

A permanent resident apparently.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackeens]

184. As my Granny used to say, "drink's a curse". Liars too.

[omega minimo]

185. Keep it up, maybe you'll manage to get banned.

[Jackeens]

186. 4008 views for the article you wanted censored.....no wonder you're enraged, omega minimo.

:toast:

[omega minimo]

187. Nice try. You're on your own. You can spin your web and get caught in it without help.

[Jackeens]

188. 4052.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

189. 4053

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/nnstory/you-and-what-movement#comment-29110

[Jackeens]

190. Wrong: 4062.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

191. have a nice wank.

[Jackeens]

192. 4078.

:woohoo:

[Hello_Kitty]

147. Klein made several valid points in her essay but was needlessly insulting.

And as Giordano points out, she is unaware of the depth and breadth of Obama's actual support outside of her bubble.

[omega minimo]

149. Well he succeeded in setting himself & HiS fans outside - & hardened the shell of - "her bubble"

that's divisive.

[Hello_Kitty]

152. 88% approval among Democrats.

Higher than any previous recent Dem President at 3 months in.

[Cha]

151. Naomi Klein is not only insulting ..she's

freakin' clueless.

[grantcart]

175. Actually I find her essay completely self indulgent

[cali]

177. and that's spot on.

nice to see you, Craig.

[Grinchie]

179. I like Obama, I don't like his crew.

In fact, I'm disappointed that he panders so much to the center, because it is certainly not what he campaigned on.

He could do much better than he is, but I an not so naieve to think that the American System is the result of one man that gets elected every 4 years.

In fact, I don't even believe that he has much of a choice in selecting people for many of these position. He is a figurehead, and nothing more. An eloquent, intelligent, and cautios mouthpiece for the real machine that largely works in the smoke filled room in the back.

To focus on Obama is exactly what the real power wants us to do, and therein explains the irrational "He's got a 61% approval rating" and other such nonsense. The truth of the matter is how much change are we seeing that actually makes our lives better?

Naomi Klein realizes that it's still status quo in many parts of the machine. She's right to be worried, because decades long plans fo transforming a supposed democracy may run into so obstacles, warranting slight alterations to plans, if those obstacles can be worked around, then we are still on the way to a machanized, corporatocracy.

It's the people that don't look at the broad picture that always think a vacation is in order when a disaster is averted, instead of evaluating what caused the disaster in the first place and resolving it so it doesn't happen again.

Not pursuing Bush/Cheney et all, using a "Looking Ahead" approach leaves the same hazard in place for the next person that travels unfortuantely down that path.

To try and throw Naomi Klein under the bus by democrats is a very stupid thing to do, especially in light of the very recent past that most would rather just forget instead of dealing with rationally

[cali]

180. actually, he did campaign to the middle

and it's utterly ridiculous to think he's only a figurehead. And criticizing Klein is hardly throwing her under the bus.

Yes, institutional power is a real thing. And it takes time to change that. Americans tend to be impatient and want instant presto change. That's unrealistic.

[omega minimo]

194. you realize you're replying to a parody, right?

:wow:

[Tarheel_Dem]

193. Then perhaps Naomi should have climbed down from her ivory tower...

& thrown her hat into the ring? Naomi's the stereotypical liberal who causes all Democrats to be painted with a very broad brush.

"Naomi Klein realizes that it's still status quo in many parts of the machine. She's right to be worried, because decades long plans fo transforming a supposed democracy may run into so obstacles, warranting slight alterations to plans, if those obstacles can be worked around, then we are still on the way to a machanized, corporatocracy."

And your deliberate mischaracterization of how Pres. Obama ran his campaign is very telling indeed. Perhaps you and Naomi could get together and form an exploratory committee for 2012?

[omega minimo]

195. i could read that carefully boxed "quote" that seemed entirely ludicrous

I don't recall why that poster is invisible, but I assure you there was a good reason for the decision.

In logging out to be able to read what you're quoting and you and others are tilting windmills at, the post reminded me of what Jon Carroll celebrates as Mondegreens or bad translations of foreign written instructions for unfamiliar products or parodies of the Left portrayed, perpetuated and playbooked by the same lying, fucking bastards of the Reich Wing that you apparently think you are combatting.

So. After the gatekeepers and enablers and resident rhymes-with-moles DRIVE OUT all the well meaning, hard working true allies and progressives and create a toxic, incestuous echo chamber of divisive back slappers, does it not occur to you that some patched together parody is not a FUCKING PARODY AND FLAMEBAIT?

No. Because there is not reference point. No reality check. No respect and balance and shared -- truly diverse, not just pandering -- perspective.

The voices of reason have left the building. The bullies have "won." And the remaining trolls reinforce their assuredness that they were correct in driving everyone. else. away.

So they become the buddies/fakes and the parodies/fakes that symbiotically feed/dance a nonsensical argument for and against right wing fakery.

Congratulations. And thank you from a grateful nation, living in a world dominated by fakery and fakers.

So much easier to go along to get along rather than having the brain/spine to do something about it.

:toast:

[ihavenobias]

196. Kick n/t