Torture Gets a Pass: What Do I Tell My 9 Year Old Son?

[MannyGoldstein]

I have a friend who was tossed into jail for overdue parking tickets. Since brutal torture will not be prosecuted, it's apparently less bad than overdue parking tickets. How do I explain this to my son and keep his perspective intact? Any thoughts welcome.

[Kdillard]

1. lame and not worthy of further discussion. However if you are serious

I would not equate not paying parking tickets knowing the consequences which are clearly printed out when you receive the ticket and a National Security issue and being told what you were doing was not illegal by your superiors and a Justice Dept.

[cali]

4. I don't know. I thought it was a good little exercise even if it was

a poor piece of rhetoric.

[Kdillard]

7. Seriously I am a little sick of the obvious flamebailt rhetoric. If they were serious I apologize

but geez. I know people like to think in Black and White but the world seriously doesn't work that way and if you think it does you are going to be in for a rude awakening.

[cali]

16. nah, you have nothing to apologize for. You pegged it right.

it was transparent and idiotic. I just decided to answer it as if it were a serious question. And the OP won't respond, of course.

[omega minimo]

73. Cali's got the pegs. You get the stocks and truncheons

[cali]

92. you. have. l.ost. it.

[omega minimo]

112. you. have. created. a. lost. cause.

:toast:

[The Doctor.]

119. And. I. Have. Just.

Errr... what was this all about?

Seriously though, I'd give your point more merit here. The OP has a fair point indeed.

[omega minimo]

120. The tribe has spoken

Good luck to this OP and others who attempt further. Many have given up a lost cause.

[EFerrari]

6. Because when your boss tells you sodomizing your prisoner is legal

you should just go ahead and act on that!

[LooseWilly]

86. Of course you should.

Obedience is always to be preferred to employees who think for themselves.

Rum, sodomy, and the lash! We'll get us an empire yet!

[newview88]

17. +1

[rhett o rick]

28. LOL. You claim "lame and not worthy of discussion" then you proceed to discuss.

So you are rationalizing that because someone's superior tells them that torture is legal, then it is ok. I honestly have a hard time believing that anyone dare use that rationalization. That's the "just obeying orders" bullshit. There is only one kind of person that can smash another persons head into a wall repeatedly. They are sick sadist, like Ms. England. If they weren't they would tell their boss to go to hell. And as far as the JD saying it was ok via memo, I say bullshit again. These sadistic tortures knew full well what torture is. If you are making a prisoner scream bloody murder, chances are pretty good that you are torturing them. But it doesn't really matter. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

The rank and file torturers should be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

101. "Authoritarianism": It ain't just for right-wingers anymore!

There seem to be quite a few left-wingers on DU who behave the same... :shrug:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

[rhett o rick]

117. Sorry I don't understand, Are you saying demaning justice by the law is authoritarianism?

And if you ain't no left-winger, what are you?

[The Doctor.]

35. It's the 'superiors at the Justice Department' we would be talking about here.

The international treatise we signed was also pretty clear.

[omega minimo]

48. lame and not worthy of further discussion. However Here's What I Think

:rofl:

[Berry Cool]

2. I guess you tell him there are two sets of rules in this world.

One for the rich and powerful, and the other for everyone else.

Then, you try to raise him to believe that it's more important to be a good, decent human being than to be rich and powerful.

Good luck. It sure won't be easy. Not with the world outside him teaching him that the values you are attempting to instill in him are for saps and suckers.

[Starry Messenger]

75. +1

This.

[leftstreet]

88. Exactly

well said

[LibDemAlways]

91. Excellent post. Exactly right.

Ordinary people are routinely treated like shit while the rich and powerful live in a bubble with a thick, impenetrable outer shell. We're useful only insofar as we buy the crap they sell, pay our taxes, and don't complain while they screw us. We're kidding ourselves if we think anything's ever going to change. People at the upper reaches of government belong to a good old boys club of power and privilege. We're not invited and have no say.

[cali]

3. has he asked you ?

or is this just a rhetorical question? If he's actually asked you, i'd suggest telling him that you hope those responsible will indeed be held to account, but life is often unfair and though we don't always get justice, that doesn't mean we shouldn't always work for it, regardless of the result.

Not really that hard.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

5. Out of curiosity, do you have anything positive to add to this forum?

I can't recall a single instance of you having anything good to say about much of anything.

BTW, Obama isn't torturing or warrant-less wiretapping.

You can tell your son that his pony isn't here yet. In the mean time he can have a rational foreign policy and an economy that isn't imploding.

MmmK?

[The Doctor.]

36. If ya' didn't happen to notice, it's a POLITICAL forum.

You might expect to see that sort of thing these days.

[Skittles]

53. you tell 'em, Doc

there's some f***ing clueless folk around here

[omega minimo]

64. You sure? Are you one of the Gatekeepers? They don't seem real big on "positive"

:shrug:

[nevergiveup]

8. Tell him what goes around comes around

and eventually those who did these terrible things will pay the price if not in public then in their souls. You can also tell him that as long as Obama is president his country will not be torturing. If my son was only 9 today this would be my approach.

[TheKentuckian]

9. That reality sucks and he better get used to it, I reckon.

We have had slave owning, native murdering Presidents...true story. Our best and worst have generally been wrapped up in the same flesh. That completely innocent people get strapped into electric chairs and brazen evil is often rewarded. That if wishes to live in a just world then he must be part of inventing it because what has never been cannot be recreated.

Mostly, that people are a huge problem and apologize for the inconvenience but you figured existence was better than the alternative for him.

Get real Manny. You well know that there are plenty of impossible explanations and excuses that you must give your son for humanity and the world you give him. Don't act like this is new or honestly even the worst thing you have tell him about. Looking back at recorded history, we're doing much better than usual. This is a good a time as any as long as we don't destroy the world we live on.

[stray cat]

10. My mom always said life wasn't fair. Let him know murderers don't always get convicted

innocent people get convicted for things they didn't do and are executed. Mothers and children are raped and massacred in some countries. On those bright notes your son can sleep well

[BlooInBloo]

11. I would just sit and cry and do nothing else.

[Jane Austin]

12. Tell him

Torture is wrong.

[Danger Mouse]

13. Don't drag your son into this. That's low.

[The Doctor.]

41. Huhn? Actually, it's fairly apt.

We wish to impart higher ethical values and enlightenment to our children. To have to also turn around and tell them that the rest of the world, even worse; the authorities in the world, may violate decency and ethics at will.

I don't see how the OP's son is at all hurt by the poster expressing concern for the conflicting messages his/her son must somehow reconcile.

[NYC_SKP]

14. Well, he's a bit young to begin Teabagging.

Maybe just tell him that his president is an undocumented muslin.

Maybe have him wear an anti-obama t-shirt to school!



:hi:

[polmaven]

27. Wait!

I thought that was a HALF BREED Muslin.......!

[JVS]

15. Tell him that he lives in a fundamentally unjust society, in which the powerful operate without...

consequence, but that common folk like him will end up getting raped in prison for many years should he run afoul the law.

[Mark Twain Girl]

69. I think this post sums it up succinctly. Good luck conveying this to your son. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

106. good answer.

[Maat]

111. Great reply, JVS.

It's the truth; and, it is VERY painful explaining this to Beloved Daughter (12).

[cali]

18. You're a hit and run poster. It's a slimy tactic. And you do it frequenly.

[omega minimo]

49. You do not have Cali's permission to post!!!!!!!111

[cali]

96. you are getting increasingly more pathetic in your thirst for a little petty

revenge, and you're becoming a little bit stalkerish, honey. not that I mind terribly. It's your problem.

[omega minimo]

113. More like an aversion to pettiness outweighing substance

[Better Believe It]

130. That's right! Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!

[MannyGoldstein]

54. Would You Like To Be Specific?

Or... are you a "hit and run" poster?

[omega minimo]

63. No, just septic.

:thumbsdown:

[cali]

97. waaah. poor wittle you.

:rofl:

[cali]

95. yes. you post threads and then don't respond.

Your response here is the direct result of being called on it.

[MannyGoldstein]

99. Huh?

Are you thinking that I only responded to you on this thread, and you alone? Or that I typically don't respond to other threads that I post? Perhaps you can find some examples. Given your accusation, actual examples would only be fair.

I don't respond to *every* post, but if there are any in particular that are bothering you, I'll give them a try.

[Bluerthanblue]

19. tell him what I've told my own children right along-

doing the right thing doesn't mean you'll always get praise- and doing the wrong thing doesn't mean you'll always get punished.

Sometimes people do really good things and no one but them knows- does that mean it was 'wrong'? hell no- (yes- i do use that word)

Anymore than getting away with doing something wrong makes it right.

If we act out of fear, we are going to make many mistakes, and bad decisions.

In your GUT you know what is right, and what is wrong. LISTEN to yourself, because YOU are the one person you can't lie to or hide from.

:shrug:

[cornermouse]

21. Exactly.

[Ikonoklast]

20. That his father uses disingenuous methods to frame a discussion.

From that premise he will ascertain that you are biased against whatever the facts may present otherwise.

[MrSlayer]

22. Tell him to eat his veggies or you'll get the CIA to torture him.

Take advantage of the situation.

[polichick]

23. I've always told my sons the truth - our government is corrupt in many ways...

I also told them to take any courses in American History with a giant grain of salt.

(But imo this torture thing isn't over ~ I'm hopeful that others will pay a price, even if it's just that the lawyers lose their licenses to practice.)

[JTFrog]

24. nm

self delete - some shit just ain't worth it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Tell him what you always tell him

OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS
OBAMA SUCKS

[dionysus]

42. ROFL

you
owe
me
a
new
keyboard
because this one is
soaked in beer

:hi: come, you buy me new keyboard

:spray:

[newview88]

80. Win!

:rofl:

[AZBlue]

83. Oh, if only you could rec a post within a thread!!!!!!!

[90-percent]

26. easy

Son, The constitution is just a piece of paper and there is one justice for the elites and another justice for the other 99.5%

You will go through life better knowing this than believing in dead fairy tales.

-90% jimmy

[mikelgb]

29. My superiors told me the sky is green, how was I supposed to know it is blue?

[Life Long Dem]

30. Are you serious?

[MadBadger]

31. Has your 9 year old son asked you about this yet? My bet is no.

And if you say yes, my bet is you're lying.

[truedelphi]

32. Tell him that Obama is a negotiated solution

The dictator we used to have had become so unpopular, both at home and abroad, that the Powers That Be actually let our elections results stand.

But that doesn't mean a lot will be allowed to change. Obama immediately instituted an economic policy that is more or less what Bush himself would have done. As it will aid and abet those at the far top, the upper 1%, and not do too much for those at the bottom (And lately that has been most of us)

So The Powers that Be smile on him.

His Ag Department Secretary will see to it that our agriculture is handed over to Monsanto.

And while the new President is busy helping Corporate America keep expanding out across the globe, can he be expected to base his legal decisions on the notion that this nation act as though it were a nation of laws? How would imprisoning torturers help Corporate America?

[dionysus]

43. what a bald faced lie

"Obama immediately instituted an economic policy that is more or less what Bush himself would have done. As it will aid and abet those at the far top, the upper 1%, and not do too much for those at the bottom (And lately that has been most of us)"
you should be ashamed of yourself, travelocity gnome fan.

[truedelphi]

74. What I am saying is not a lie. We now live in a Banana Republic.

We have been lied to and coerced since at least 1959. Kennedy opposed the Bay of Pigs, and then didn't give them their little nuclear war in October of 1962, so he was done in. Sadly, the same people that did him in are running things, though second generation.

And if you look to the history of the Banana Republics below our Nation's southern most borders, you find out that when people disliked the odious dictator that was bleeding them dry, they would probably revolt. So to quash the revolt, our CIA would try to get someone installed in the government so that although it might appear to people that now there was this people-friendly, decent human who would re-start the economy in such a way as to allow for the people to benefit, in the end, this people-friendly person was only a ruse.

One exception to this was Allende - and ITT and the CIA made sure that that little mistake of theirs didn't get much traction.

Now back to current day Banana Republic 2008-09:
Bush had to go. People hated him here, in great numbers. People hated him across the world. They needed a controllable and likable puppet, and Obama it is. Without someone like that, Monsanto isn't going to get its demon seed technology everywhere. Corporate America won't get that last dime from America's middle class.

You may say he looks Kennedyesque, but on the other hand, his economic policy smacks of the same voodoo that we have seen under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush. There is nothing in Obama's economic policy that offers hope to the middle class, well, except for the 700 Billion dollar stim bill.

But most of the other three to 12 Trillion handed over to the banks and to the financial elites is not going to even trickle down to us. (Unless you count the bills we will be sent for the utilities that the banks are now going to be vying to buy up as "trickle down.")
In addition to the massive amounts given to the ruling class, there is NO SUPERVISION. NO AUDITING. No regulations, except those written up with so many loopholes that most banks will be able to drive their vaults through them.

The economic plan master-minded by Geithner/Bernancke can end only one of three ways:

1) Out and out bankruptcy of the nation.
2) Inflation that allows the government to keep running, but further destroys the middle and lower classes.
3) The creation of yet another economic bubble - which in due time will crash -- just as the other bubbles we've seen since 1995. So it will postpone the inevitable, but only postpone.

[tigereye]

116. he's the most liberal president elected in quite some time- not a puppet

When was the last time someone this liberal was elected? Who else would have changed so many Bush policies?


And how is enabling banks to continue to lend needed funds to small businesses and individuals to buy homes that they CAN afford, destroying the middle class?


SIgh.

[truedelphi]

122. Here is where your economics theory has shorted you:

You have a very basic, basic question here:

"And how is enabling banks to continue to lend needed funds to small businesses and individuals to buy homes that they CAN afford, destroying the middle class?"
Two things -

Because first thing - Kucinich and Issa, who have been dealing with this problem for quite a while, have seen nothing to indicate the big boys will lend out the money we give them. Kucinich is quite sure they will hoard the money, and that they will then buy utilites, such as your local water utility. Why should they loan to someone for a limited amount of interest (The Federal Reserve has cut loan rates to the bone, if you haven't noticed.) Wouldn't it be much more prudent to invest the money themselves in a utility? And then gouge the customers?

Because second thing -- thing that should be obvious to anyone examining these fraudsters is just that - these banks are frauds. It's why Obama had a real chance to bring about a truly democratic movement in this country - Issa and Kucinich could have offered him up enough proof that these bankers don't deserve our funding. Obama could have then brought about a Central National Bank free of these scam artists. Who to run it? Spitzer, Boxer, also I'm sure anyone on the inside world of banking could have brought some good people to the table. There have been countless posts here on DU about how this person at Citigroup tried to get Citi to straighten out, and got demoted, and that person at AIG tried to straighten out AIG and got fired, etc. So this notion that WE HAD TO HAVE Geithner, Bernanke et al to run things is a sham.

Take the time to examine how the big inner financial elite got rid of all the regulations, via the Bank Reform Act of 1999, and the Credit Modernization Act of 2000, to say nothing of the Glass Steagall Act, that Steagall Act being the main thing that has kept fraud and mismanagement out of the banking system from the thirties till the nineties. (A lot of topics on this over in the "e economics forum")

Ask yourself - if a system fails, why infuse it with tons of tax payer monies while keeping the same group of mis managers thieves in charge.

Twelve trillion bucks is a lot of money to give away. If we have not yet handed the fraudsters this twelve trillion, we are about to. Autorank has written some fabulous articles for "Scoop" His last article can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/cjxofn

You might need to get some understanding of the notions of SIV's, CDO's and Credit Default Swaps.

The SIV's were simply bundles of partial snips of mortgages. SO that it could be sold as an investment package. So 14% of 200,000 mortgages might be bundled up and sold to the good people of Northern Norway. Nice deal all around, except in the end, the city that bought these in Norway's is now bankrupt. (Also notice: The same packages are believed to have been sold up to thirty-five times!)

Credit default swaps were bets that the SIV's and CDO's would either pay off or would default. One big problem we are facing (Autorank's article covers this nicely) the banks have not come clean about how much they owe due to the vast numbers of people whose Credit Default Swap Plays should have been paid off for their bets that the mortgage economy would sink. In his article, autorank says that there are like 12 to 14 trillion in bets to be paid off. But some people are afraid that there may be as much as 550 Trillion dollars in these derivative pay offs needed.

If you have any idea on how the US economy can manage to pay off a 550 Trillion dollar Black Hole, please call Obama and let him know. There are probably not enough trees on the earth to be ground up and made into $ 500 bills to pay off this debt. (Our GDP is something like 13 to 14 Trillion a year.)

One student of the economy I talked to thought we might be able to survive because there is nothing stating that Goldman Sachs HAS TO ask AIG for all of its losses. IN other words, middle of January, this guy THOUGHT that Goldman Sachs might settle for pennies on the dollar. Goldman Sachs, however, was not the knight in shining armor we need. It has made it clear it wants all of its money.

While we bail out the banksters so they can do it to others especially US the tax payers one more time.

[tigereye]

123. yes, I am familiar with most of the things you mentioned, thanks

(Terry Gross had some great folks analyzing the credit default issues, and I listen to Marketplace, and read many articles.)

Even the Harvard prof/ uber-regulator that John Stuart had on the Daily Show talked about the need for re-instating banking regulations of the past- she cited the boom and bust cycle that was stopped after increased regulation of banks in the 30s.


Not sure that justifies a Central National Bank. as you put it, although I appreciate your reasoning. I guess I don't agree that the whole banking industry should be scrapped. Many banks avoided those toxic loans and assets. I suppose I'd rather see those regulations put back in place.


The most amusing thing is Issa ! and Kucinich working together! :wow:

[truedelphi]

131. I can't get the radio stuff any more on account of the hills

BLocking me. SO good to know about it being picked up by NPR.

Issa is a good man, in terms of fiscal honesty etc. Really pathetic in terms of gay rights issues, women's issues, etc.

Politics here in California is pretty crazy - back in the day, some of us environmentalists had to work very closely with people like Mountjoy in order to get rid of MTBE in our gasoline and drinking water. Mountjoy had a strange history with the Big Oil industry - he originally had gotten into office because he was their favorite son. When he turned on Big Oil on account of the MTBE stuff killing people, Big Oil couldn't understand why he bit the hand that had fed him.

He got elected anyway, because by then his home district had to purchase drinking water from another source due to the contamination of MTBE in their usual supply. People really support someone that stands up to Big OIl in order to save lives (and the environment.)

And again, I admired him because he would not back down from his stance on MTBE, but found him patheticly unaware (and maybe in the clutches of some RW Christian faith?) regarding the gay ights issue.

[dflprincess]

126. That's not a bald faced lie, but apparently this was

"Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in cover-ups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it."

Barack Obama June 30, 2008

It's in this transcript:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25478395/

[tigereye]

45. oh, what a pile of crap!

[Elidor]

33. Tell him this is a time for reflection, not retribution.

"It's time to focus on the future, not look to the past." That's what our president said, so by god, it must be true.

DO NOT tell him to try that line on a cop or federal prosecutor. Don't try this at home. Because it only works if you're wealthy and connected.

Seriously though, there is no excuse for it. You tell him that people who are a cut above the rest do not point to the inane justifications of everyone else as excuses. Good people hold themselves to a higher standard. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right, or smart. Honorable behavior requires sacrifice, and that sacrifice is worth the cost, and makes your small corner of the world a slightly better place. And that's always a good thing.

[stillcool]

34. Tell him that this is who we are..

and it is what we do. Tell him history is a great teacher. Tell him that checks and balances need vigilance, anywhere that unbridled power is given to one human being over another. Tell him that change doesn't happen, we make it happen. Hope springs eternal.

[high density]

37. Hmm.

If your friend had a legal opinion from the US Department of Justice in regards to overdue parking tickets, this perhaps could be remotely related to the issue at hand.

[Vidar]

38. Emigrate to a nation that still stands for something.

[dionysus]

39. you say"Daddy gets too worked up on a political message board and says ridiculous shit from time to

time."

[Drunken Irishman]

40. You sure you're not Helen Lovejoy?

[neverforget]

44. I love the put downs by some posters. How classy.

[MannyGoldstein]

46. Your Handle Is Appropriate

But, unfortunately, most of us have forgotten.

[omega minimo]

47. Tell him Ronald Reagan was a phony bastard figurehead for those who destroyed the nation

[MannyGoldstein]

51. Already Did.

And it's been a nonstop attack on the middle class ever since.

[omega minimo]

55. Righteous

[omega minimo]

58. Tell him "Rich People Have To Get All The Money Or They Won't Give The Rest Of Us Jobs"

[noamnety]

50. I guess teach him the value

of the good ol' boy network.

[Bonobo]

52. A 9 year old about this? Sorry, Dad, I cannot help you with your f'ed up judgment.

Here's my advice. Let him be a child.

[omega minimo]

59. 9 year olds can comprehend parking tickets, eh? They were big on what's fair when they were 7

:eyes:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MannyGoldstein]

57. You Think Kids Aren't Exposed To The News? Really?

Should I stop getting the newspaper? Did we err in teaching him to read?

[omega minimo]

61. No, you erred in showing him the Memory Hole, Manny.

:rofl:

[mkultra]

62. you should be managing it

If your nine year old son knows the current status of torture and extraordinary rendition participants, then your feeding it to him.

[omega minimo]

68. Yes, children should grow up in a bubble of pleasantly pornographic consumerist imagery

:thumbsup:

[MannyGoldstein]

71. Do You Have Children?

I'm thinking not, but surprise me.

[mkultra]

103. lol, many more than you im sure.

I'm thinking your are a one child parent.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flyarm]

65. HAVE HIM READ "NIGHT" WITH YOU..BY Elie Wiesel

AND HAVE HIM READ THIS AND HELP HIM UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS........

Justice Louis D.Brandeis

"Our government is the potent, the omnipresent, teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself;"

AND RECORD AND WATCH TONIGHTS HALLMARK HALL OF FAME ..AND GO TO HALLMARK.COM FOR THE STORY OF IRENA SENDLER

WATCH THE HALLMARK HALL OF FAME MOVIE TONIGHT ON CBS "The COURAGEOUS HEART OF IRENA SENDLER"

IRENA DIED LAST YEAR ..BUT IT WAS STUDENTS IN kANSAS THAT UNCOVERED HER STORY..

we can all learn from her story and how willing we are to stand up for what is right..

It was mothers in Poland that took in the Jewish Babies that Irena saved..I believe it will take we mothers to hold the war criminals in our country accountable..WE MUST ..FOR THE SAKE OF OUR CHILDREN!

and some brave dads..willing to stand up for our values and principles as Americans!

BLESS OUR CHILDREN AND ALL THE CHILDREN OF THE WORLD.

AND NEVER FORGET..BUSH AND HIS ADMINISTRATION WITH THE HELP OF OUR CIA ..TORTURED CHILDREN.

WE MUST NEVER EVER ACCEPT THIS!

FLY

[omega minimo]

67. Thank you. Where is the quote from? Do you have a link to the Wiesel? Thank you.

:hi:

[flyarm]

76. This is who and where..

I WENT TO A UNIVERSITY THAT THE MAIN HALL WAS PRESIDENT Woodrow WILSON'S HOME.. In NJ..I heard this so many times while in college..I just remembered it..

and I taught it to my son...

here from Wiki..

Justice Brandeis was appointed by Woodrow Wilson to the Supreme Court of the United States in 1916 (sworn in on June 5), and served until 1939. It surprised many people when Wilson, the son of a Christian minister, appointed the first Jewish Supreme Court Justice.

Besides his educational record, Brandeis had for some years been a contributor to the progressive wing of the United States Democratic Party

Good luck with your son..

and I found Honesty is the best policy raising a son..AND TALK..AND WHEN IT IS A DIFFICULT SUBJECT ..READ IT WITH THEM!!

Because i was a flight crew with a major airline, i was able to take my son to Dachau and Auschwitz and Normandy..and the South of France..my father in law landed in Normandy and in Normandy there is an incredible museum of the german occupation, and the bravery of our soldiers.. ..my husbands nick name is "the tourguide"..because we took our son so many places so he could see and learn..and hopefully never live with prejudice..
My hubby's family is from Spain..and American Indian..my son was treated with predjudice when he was a young boy, and i never wanted him to be that way in return to anyone, so i believed seeing and educating was the best policy.

I am sorry to say..the days of bravery are very sick in our nation today..but i will stand and scream it from the roof tops...NOT IN MY NAME..I want every one of the war criminals in this nation of ours held accountable..it is the only safety we all have!

fly

[omega minimo]

79. Thank you for the info. Manny and all don't miss this post!!!!

[omega minimo]

66. MannyGoldstein I apologize for being prejudiced. Anyone with that screen name cannot be

an idiot or poseur as the hardasses here are accusing you of. :yourock:

[MannyGoldstein]

72. Thanks. It's Pretty Disturbing To Be Called A Rotten Parent. n/t

[omega minimo]

77. Bout as low as it gets........

[flyarm]

78. Manny..there are manuals for cars, and computers and microwaves

and refrig's..there are no manuals for raising children, and there is no such thing as raising the perfect kid..we all do the best we can..and please..ignore the assholes..i thought your question was a very good one..and a very caring one!!

Its a tough thing to explain ..to even another adult!

fly

[rasputin1952]

70. There is a petition at Democrats.com asking for signaures on

their petition for Congress to outlaw torture once and for all. Additional information and signing can be found here:


http://www.democrats.com/no-amnesty-for-torturers

They initially asked for 10,000 signatures, it is up to 20,023 as I type this.

[newview88]

81. Tell him you're still pissed you wasted all that money on McCain-Palin bumperstickers.

[Hippo_Tron]

82. I would tell him that justice isn't perfect

[AZBlue]

84. Tell him obvious posts like this get you on many Ignore Lists.

Welcome to mine!

[cliffordu]

85. Torture hasn't been given a pass, and you fucking well know it

[MannyGoldstein]

98. Well... How Would You Characterize It?

Americans tortured prisoners. They are not in any legal trouble. Seems like getting a pass to me.

[cliffordu]

108. Odd how you believe this is all over and done with already.

Fits your pre-judgement perfectly.

Keep watching.

I'm marking this thread, We'll revisit this in about a year.

Obama said no matter who won the presidency there wouldn't be time in the first term to concentrate wholly on this. Which is what it's going to take.

Nothing else will get done. There will be no other obsession worldwide.

[omega minimo]

114. "Lack of time to concentrate wholly on this" is the rationale? When many Americans seek justice and

accountability for the crimes of the previous administration?

[LooseWilly]

87. I'd suggest the two of you sit down and watch Clear And Present Danger.

When the movie's over, instruct your son that he should ignore Harrison Ford's character, heroic as he might be, and instead study his character's boss... the one that arranges a "get out of jail free card" before he does anything questionable.

The moral of the story is that nothing is immoral if the President says it's ok.
And the Rovian asshats that permeate the institutions of this country firmly believe it... and so, in a strictly non-judgemental sense, to instill any morality other than that into your son is to interfere with an intact perspective.

Ohh yeah, and tell him not to trust the meter maids. Ever

[jberryhill]

89. Did your local Attorney General Specifically State the Parking In Question Was Legal?

...in a formal opinion given to your friend before he parked in those spots?

[Egnever]

90. Heya jberry

I really dont understand why people are having such a hard time understanding why these people can not be tried in our courts. I understand the outrage but I cant for the life of me understand the refusal to understand what laws are in play here.

[jberryhill]

100. It's not as broad as "can not be tried"

But should be considered on a case by case basis. I'm sure there are plenty of instances where chronology and other factors would negate good faith reliance.

[BigBearJohn]

93. You think that's hard? What do you say to your son when you catch him smoking pot and he quips:

"Hey -- President Obama smoked pot too when he was a young man.
How bad can it be?"

[Kablooie]

94. Tell him the truth. Parking tickets are worse than torturing people.

[karynnj]

102. By saying the decision was because the US, like most countries,

has enormous difficulty accepting that atrocious things were done in its name. Few countries have ever prosecuted their former leaders for crimes of this sort without the outside world demanding it and the country not having the strength to defy the word. This though is an awful explanation to give a 9 year old who likely wants to think the world is fair.

There is one thing that can be added though that helps a lot. By releasing the documents, with very little withheld, President Obama has provided the world and history with clear, unimpeachable evidence that the Bush administration, from the top down, condoned torture. This is a mark that will be there forever on their legacy.

If he asks if people who did these awful things would care that history records this, mention all of Bush's "re-write history" interviews. Ask him how he thinks Bush will feel when his future grandkids learn about this in their history classes. So, though there punishment will likely not include trials or prison, for a leader, how history views you is in itself a trial.

[Teaser]

104. Tell him the truth: that your friend is the prime suspect for string of unsolved murders.

.

[Maat]

105. This law school graduate GETS what you are saying, Manny.

I'm also having trouble explaining to my twelve-year-old, whom I homeschool due to her unique needs, how we fail to aggressively punish such an egregious violation of both international and domestic law (something that is such a gross violation of every beloved principle this nation was founded upon).

What's most amazing to me is those on this Board who even think about justifying the lack of prosecution - in the least way. It renders me speechless.

[omega minimo]

115. Yes, this audience needed the civics lesson of investigations/impeachment during Bushco's reign

as the nation learned the lesson up close and personal (via TV wall to wall coverage) during Watergate.

Showing your daughter those hearings will help her understand how the nation went off the rails after Reagan's "landslide."

As for folks here -- like a lot of Americans, too many DUers believe their Constitutional protections are intact just b/c of the fairy tale and haven't a clue about the reality; or why the Constitution requires public servants to swear to protect and defend it.

[Maat]

128. Exactly.

It leaves me so sad - thinking about the situation.

:-(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. tell him that if he wants to sidestep the law, he had better work very hard

at becoming someone important.

that like in most societies the law only applies to the hoipolloi.

[snake in the grass]

109. Tell him the truth.

This world is unjust. The little people get hanged while the big fish get away. That's why it's not surprising that Bush and Cheney will die comfortably in their beds at a ripe old age.

"Justice is in a place to which the law seldom has access."

-Friedrich Dürrenmatt

[harun]

110. Truth = good.

[rhett o rick]

118. Tell him you stood by and watched as your government commited horrendous atrocities.

You wrote a couple of emails and went back to watching American Idol.

Sorry, I am not aiming this at you anymore than myself and millions of others. We are all complicit.

[mkultra]

121. this is funny but only because it is so true

Its almost like the tea baggers watching bush spend and spend but then protesting a democrat doing it.

[mimitabby]

124. write to the president. I did. n/t

[noiretextatique]

125. tell him this nation has lost its soul

and will never regain it until the people who ordered torture are prosecuted.

[Maat]

129. Exactly (n/t)!

[Kaleva]

127. Parking fines can't be covered by "National Security" reasons