Something to think about re: Obama and torture

[luvspeas]

I can't take the credit for finding this. I heard it on the Thom Hartman show. But it was a very inspiring thought to me and I think it's good advise. If we follow Obama's call and "make him do it", we can pursuade him to prosecute the war criminals.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/20/ED3M15E3UD.DTL

A long train ride
Amy Goodman, King Features Syndicate
Wednesday, January 21, 2009

Harry Belafonte recalled in an interview with Tavis Smiley recently a story he was told by Eleanor Roosevelt. She related a public event when her husband, FDR, introduced Randolph and asked him, Belafonte recalled, "what he thought of the nation, what he thought of the plight of the Negro people and what did he think ... where the nation was headed." Continuing the story, Belafonte recounted what FDR replied upon hearing Randolph's remarks: "You know, Mr. Randolph, I've heard everything you've said tonight, and I couldn't agree with you more. I agree with everything that you've said, including my capacity to be able to right many of these wrongs and to use my power and the bully pulpit. ... But I would ask one thing of you, Mr. Randolph, and that is go out and make me do it."

This story was retold by Obama at a campaign fundraiser in Montclair, N.J., more than a year ago. It was in response to a person asking Obama about finding a just solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. After recounting the Randolph story, Obama said he was just one person, that he couldn't do it alone. Obama's final answer: "Make me do it."

[zipplewrath]

1. That's the theory

Amongst many around here, that this the "hopeful" version of the theories, that he is releasing the info so as to create a public demand for investigations and prosecutions.

I'm more than willing to "make him do it", but let us acknowledge all the actors against which I will have to work. Besides the right wing/neocons, there are the existing democrats who aren't going to be thrilled at the prospect of having their complicity in these acts exposed. There are also the Obama worshipers that won't like me "pushing" Obama and expect me to just "watch the chess master work". And there are the progressives who are more concerned with healthcare, and NAFTA and don't want to see me "expend energy and capital" on past issues. And this doesn't even mention the democrats (Lieberman) who actually SUPPORT the torture.

[AtomicKitten]

America is still digesting the implications of these documents.

This is a work in progress and it appears both Congress and the Dept of Justice are contemplating action. I think it's great that people are contacting their representatives in Congress and government; that's the point of dissent. And, yes, pressure is building for a thorough investigation and prosecution.

This thing isn't over by a long shot in spite of the predictions made with certainty that it is.

on edit: Oh, by the way, your reference to "Obama worshippers" isn't particularly help in the dialogue here at DU, but I suspect you already know that.

[zipplewrath]

7. What expression would you prefer?

I'm attempting to be clear (and concise to some extent). However you wish to characterize them, there are those who will object to folks "making him do it", and they already are. They don't defend his statements and decisions, they merely suggest that he is "misunderstood" because we are all checker players and he is the chess master. How would you concisely "name" this group of people?

[AtomicKitten]

9. DU'ers that are expressing an opinion you disagree with on a particular issue?

I think some people are referring to what has been described as President Obama's political jujitsu, his proclivity for seeing a few steps ahead. Whether you subscribe to that theory is irrelevant.

What matters to this conversation is that everybody's opinion should be respected at DU, and attempts to minimize and demean others by name-calling aren't helpful. I'm pretty sure no DU'er has cornered the market on being right all the time.

[zipplewrath]

12. Actually no

I was attempting to make reference to DUers (and people outside this forum actually) who object to criticism of Obama. The subject of this thread is "making him do it" and in order to do that, we are going to have to criticize him. To do that, amongst the many obstacles to the larger effort are those who will object to the criticism, not through defense of his policies, statements, and actions, but out of a sense of "we're all dumb and he's smart". I can deal with a reasoned defense, but if I am to "make him do it" I at least have to be able to make an argument for my point of view. Being told that despite my well reasoned argument, "I just don't understand because he is so smart" is a dead end discussion. I merely shortened a description of this phenomenon to "Obama worshippers". If you have a preferred term I'm more than willing to use it. The "Jujitsu brigade"?

[AtomicKitten]

13. And so endeth the lesson on name-calling which has clearly fallen on deaf ears. n/t

[zipplewrath]

14. So you have no answer?

I'm perfectly willing to accept any title you wish to assign, as long at it is clear it reflects people unwilling to defend a position, and merely assert my stupidity.

[AtomicKitten]

17. Here's some information; I hope it helps.

You're welcome.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8360232&mesg_id=8360232

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8360114&mesg_id=8360114

[zipplewrath]

19. Nonresponsive

It has nothing to do with "making him do it" and nothing to do with what terms you thought I should use that would be less offensive. It is just more of the same basic claim that the only people he wants to prosecute are unelected lawyers, not the people that actually committed acts of torture.

[AtomicKitten]

20. I'm sorry you are unable to feel the good news today regarding prosecution.

I am now convinced there is nothing President Obama could do that would leave you feeling satisfied, that you will always see the cloud and not the silver lining.

Rage on with your name-calling of other posters here at DU. I can only assume that sort of behavior is a comfort to you in some demented way.

[zipplewrath]

21. I'm sorry you're convinced

You've quit twice on this thread. Strange behavior for a discussion forum.

The good news was merely that SOME prosecutions MIGHT take place after SOMEONE does SOMETHING.

He is still talking about limiting them to very narrow categories of people.

He is still talking about protecting the very people who decided to waterboard a guy 183 times in one month. He still talks about "having peoples backs" and forgiving people who were just following the directions of their superiors. I'm not sure what the silver lining is here. And I haven't found anyone around here ready to defend these positions, merely dispute the motives of those of us who question these positions.

And you STILL haven't suggested a better description of the group of people I mentioned.

[AtomicKitten]

22. FFS. Choose your own epithets for your rude name-calling.

I'm busy celebrating the good news about accountability that you are discounting and disregarding.

[zipplewrath]

24. Actually, you brought it up

You were the one that criticized me. I merely asked for some constructive criticism. You've chosen to take a pass. I guess you never really had anything substantive to offer me. Merely attacks with out addressing my points. That's getting pretty common around here.

I have to admit, I probably need to pick my threads more carefully. I've notice before that many posters are only interested in people who agree with them. They often are merely looking for K&R kinda response. Preaching to the choir. Self congratulations, that kinda thing. With a bit more study, I could probably detect people actually willing to explain their points of view, and respond to questions.

[AtomicKitten]

25. Perhaps your difficulty entering into discussions here

has more to do with your aloof bordering on snotty characterization of people here in your initial post followed by further alienation with your continued armchair analysis of people to try to diminish them. Again just like the name-calling, it's boorish behavior.

Of note and relevant to the the OP, David Shuster today framed the great news by saying Obama had "changed course" which Jerrold Nadler promptly disputed. (on edit: For record, I love David Shuster and this proves he's got his ear to the internet.) It's the line of attack de jour coming from people that pretty clearly aren't interested in giving Obama a fair shake. How do I know that? Because any reasonable person would realize a couple things:

First, Rahm Emanuel shot off his mouth on Sunday, something he is known to do, and the White House issued a press release the next day - yesterday, Monday - correcting Rahm's erroneous statement that Obama wasn't interested in prosecuting anybody. Today President Obama clarified his position and not only left the door open for prosecution but - hallelujah - turned it over to the Justice Dept. Holder is already looking at appointing a Special Prosecutor.

Second and now here's where Obama's rumored political jujitsu comes in, maybe, just maybe Gibbs and Emanuel were playing rope a dope and gave Obama political cover by making it sort of seem like he's the reluctant president.

But some people here seem simply kneejerk incapable of seeing anything that might be construed as positive and choose instead again in kneejerk fashion to ferret out the worst spin they can find. In this case, they are incapable of celebrating the door to prosecution being left open and the series of moves Obama is making to nudge the Department of Justice to have a looksie. Instead we get the theory which you apparently subscribe to, a new mind-numbingly sad line of attack that alleges Obama was somehow squeezed to "reverse course" because that's the snottiest and as it turns out lamest thing some can think to say to diminish what's happenng. Whatever.

Truthfully I don't give a rat's ass what you think. I disagree with Obama on many things, but I also think he's an exceptionally bright man and politician, and he's on his way to being a great president. That's right, I can disagree with him and still like him. And you and the other knuckleheads ------> namecalling! can call it whatever the hell you like. I'm not impressed with your rudeness and I reject your attempt to demean people for simply having a positive opinion of the president.

You are welcome to your opinion but not to name-calling. Please feel free to put me on ignore.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

2. Exactly. Outrage, Indignation, Questioning, Demands for performance

and the like all need to emanate from the ground up.

People who are angry and disappointed with some of President Obama's action in specific areas like torture, get this. It's not helpful when they are asked where their ponies are, or are accused of poutrage, or are called names like "DU Glenn Beck left teabaggers" when they post.

Everyone's so happy today that MAYBE there will be a Special Counsel? Well, why do you think that might be? It's because LOTS of people, bloggers, editorial writers, most on the LEFT blasted President Obama for his "reflection not retribution" stance.

We will see this again when we have to drag President Obama kicking and screaming for a single payer option in healthcare since he was not for this in the campaign and we know for a fact that most of his staff is not in favor of this position.

[Connie_Corleone]

5. I agree with you. However, some of the anger went way over the top.

Some people were calling Obama "same as Bush" and ready to throw him off the cliff instead of being proactive and constructive with their criticism.

I strongly disagree with Obama on a couple of issues. But I also know that it's ultimately up to the Justice Department to investigate and prosecute those involved in torture.

[luvspeas]

6. I agree with you that change will come from the ground up...

I also think there is a fundamental shift in the way our current president thinks about the will of the people. Limpballs spent 8 years (unjustly) complaining about Clinton relying on the polls for every move he made until it started to stick. This just cowed Bush into never listening to anyone except his trusted cronies who only kept him just out of reach of a public hanging. Obama is going to do a lot of things I disagree with, but he can be reasoned with and is willing to consider many different sides. Kicking and screaming to me means he will fight things any way he can, I don't think that will happen in this case.

[Frustratedlady]

3. Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one thinking in this vein...

The people supported Obama, partly because they believed that he would bring these "criminals" before their peers to answer for the violations connected to the Iraq War. I keep thinking that the loud applause he heard during the campaign, must still be ringing in his ears...he knows where we all stand, Democrats and Republicans alike, (except for those addicted to Kool-Aid). If we force him to fulfill this promise, he won't be blamed for going after them out of vengeance.

He's in a tough spot. The nuts have enough reason to be against him (in their own minds) because they are being racist. To add punishment of their idols would be the ultimate infraction and would lead them to be more violent. We know many of them are on the brink, just from reading some of their awful posts. I fear for his safety, but I also fear what will happen in the future when a precedent, such as what the Bush administration did to our country and the world, would be set. It must be stopped. We will just have to rise up and protect President Obama and his family.

Cheney protesteth too much. He is worried he will be brought before his peers. I don't know why, as I'm sure he'll never tell the truth, anyway. As for Bush? He's moved on.

[vaberella]

15. No you're not. O has always said it's about us and we need to always be proactive.

I actually see many of us were falling towards complacency or you have the other set you think O is superman and he could do it alone. No, no he can't. ~sigh~ but you won't get that here...it's all or nothing or he has to this or that like he has the full right too. We blasted Bush over this shit and it's okay though for O to do it?

[BeFree]

4. Agitation

That's why so many of us here are agitating. We quarter no dissent - we must get everybody fired up and clamoring for investigations. Just one serious investigation needs to begin. Just one, then the floodgates will open.

We must make Obama do it. We are the only ones who can. It is our duty.

[luvspeas]

8. I think the left needs to continue to protest, but perhaps in a new way...

I have the utmost respect for our president. This is something I cannot say that I felt with Chimpy. But there are things that I disagree with about some of the decisions Obama has made. I do want him to know this, but I also want him to know that I respect his position, his judgement, and his overall philosophy.

I must admit, it was lots more fun to take jabs at Shrub. There's just so much material there. In many ways it's harder to make our voices heard without the comedy.

[BeFree]

10. A new way? wtf?

We are doing what we can with what we've got. We get no help from the establishment. No help from the MSM.

The honeymoon is over. It is now or never. Do not take those words lightly, it is now or never. We have a sliver of power and we must use it as it will soon be buried if we don't.

Just one investigation. Investigate something and do it with serious backing is what we are asking of our president. Why would we be refused? Why are we being refused?

[Life Long Dem]

11. Yeah... we could probably have a Representative prosecute all the soldiers if we wanted this

But isn't it time to go after the boss who told you to pull the trigger? And why threaten to throw Obama under the bus if no prosecution is taken place.

Yet this threat is in the middle of a crisis the American people are having and people who are more interested in jobs and keeping their houses right now than jailing a soldier and any threats against Obama for the 2010 election.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Who's talking about jailing a soldier?

We are talking about getting the lawyers who rationalized torture investigated. One of them sits on the Federal bench to this day, and he must go.
You make the declaration that Americans have no interest in justice, but you show no proof of that statement. Why is that? Because you have none. If you do, share it. If you don't, then stop foisting your assumptions as facts, be honest and say 'in my opinion, the American people...blah blah' instead of trying to co-opt the citizenry into your corner.
The orders were given and legal bullshit written to 'legalize torture'. Those who did those things need to be held accountable. For the sake of our soliders and our nation.

[Life Long Dem]

18. I thought it was about the CIA

I was wrong.

[wildflower]

23. I heard the clip on Hartmann too

And was going to post about it. I'm glad I found your post.

It strikes me that this is exactly what is happening today with Obama's recent statements. The people made him do it. And that's what he wanted.