"Democrats Should be Careful How They Tread from Here on Out" - re: Pelosi's knowledge of Torture

[K Gardner]

This has been the underriding current on MSNBC this morning. The GOP has nothing else so they're threatening Democrats because Pelosi and Rockefeller "knew about the torture program and wondered if it was tough enough" (quote from Joe Scarborough).

Note to the Desperate GOP Talking Heads: We do NOT care WHO was involved. We will NOT protect 'our own' in this if they were involved. This is not a Democratic Issue. This is not a Republican Issue.

This is a Human Rights and Morality Issue. It's about the Rule of Law. It's about our country.

If Democrats were involved, then they should be investigated and proper action taken. Try another talking point.. this one's no good.

[babylonsister]

1. They're savaging the idea. I did notice they also didn't mention

the amount of times some prisoners were tortured for such important info. The whole conversation was ludicrous and so one-sided. Would be nice if they at least attempted to get another pov. I'm going to cnn and they're not much better.

[K Gardner]

4. And Martin Savidge comes on saying: "This is not the time, it's going to distract the country."

When IS the time? This is only really "day two".. it's going to get very nasty.

[roguevalley]

47. this is a stain that won't go away if its left and NO ONE involved

in this fiasco is so important that protecting them -dem or other- trumps us knowing and getting justice. the dead demand it.

[Cha]

59. One wonders why corporatemediawhores love

torture so much?

[vaberella]

23. They're saying are Catepillars torture...yes, if you're deadly afraid of them. n/t

[K Gardner]

24. How do they know it was "a caterpillar" ?? Good lord !

[vaberella]

41. I don't...ask Chuck Todd and every other Repub. I remember insect, not catepillar. n/t

[saigon68]

2. A Pig with lipstick is still a Pig

And Pelosi, if involved, should go to prison with the whole lot of them

[ShortnFiery]

6. They have something on Pelosi lest Impeachment would not have been placed off the table.

A side benefit of Pelosi out of power will be that we won't be forced to tolerate her nepotism and daughters continuing productions of crappy documentaries. :(

Silver lining can be found seemingly everywhere. :shrug:

[K Gardner]

8. I had the same thought but didn't have the nerve to post it, LOL !

[ShortnFiery]

17. You are the "wise one."

Sometimes I deservedly get myself in TROUBLE for behaving in a brusque manner. :blush:

[rateyes]

25. Hey, ShortnFiery is who you are..

Don't change a thing. :D

[ACTION BASTARD]

58. We demand you continue to live up to your name, ShortnFiery!

Don't change anything. We love you for you.

[AndyA]

11. That was my first thought as well.

It certainly could explain why impeachment was taken off the table at such an early stage.

And if that's the case, she's as guilty as Bushco for protecting them.

[PassingFair]

27. Pelosi has been covering for our OWN DINOS.

Personally, I don't think she had much of a choice.

She walks the fence.

[NoSheep]

52. I have thought the same thing.

[KittyWampus]

54. What idiotic nonsense. If they had something on Pelosi, why didn't she give Harman the Chairmanship?

[Hippo_Tron]

62. Pelosi got a classified intelligence briefing that she was bound by law not to disclose to anyone

So I don't see how she was exactly complicit.

[polichick]

3. If a true and complete investigation takes place, some of our own will suffer...

...as well as Colin Powell, whose name has so far been kept out of it.

[annabanana]

16. Let the chips fall. . . America can "take it". . . We are stronger than this.

Americans doing their job and making the government work the way it should will make us much much STRONGER.

[polichick]

29. I agree - it'll be messy but worth it.

[rurallib]

5. did Joe forget who approved and pushed the torture?

[Supersedeas]

44. Mika's bubbly cheerleading was especially revealing

[meli224]

7. this show is such a one-sided joke

he was bullshitting that Bob Baier is a liar about torture, it worked. That isn't even the point! and he keeps saying that Pelosi and the democrats knew what was going on, and wanted the interrogators to go further. Feinstein was on Andrea Mitchell's show the other day and said she didn't know about the waterboarding, but Joe keeps insisting they all knew.

[monmouth]

9. Did you notice Joe said Baier was on "another show" saying.... He

would not mention Keith. What's the story between those two???

[meli224]

15. I think Baier was actually on Hardball last night..

If he was on Keith's show you know he wouldn't mention it. They haven't even uttered one word about the report that came out yesterday! Joe was talking about Pres. Obama "cherrypicking" the memos he wanted out. Well Scumbag Joe "cherrypicks" the news he feels like reporting! He must go to Drudge or something every morning to see what he will talk about!

[monmouth]

31. Ahh, I stand corrected. I watch in the early a.m., the repeats. No

coffee yet I guess.

[CTyankee]

32. I always suspect that Joe just makes shit up. I heard him this a.m. and thought

"Hmm, how does he know this? Any factual information to back this up, Joe?"
AFter a while, I turned him off.

[meli224]

33. I hate how people are afraid to call him on anything

because it's his show. You notice he didn't have any Dems on today, other than Claire Mccaskill. He knew they would call him on it!

[CTyankee]

35. I bet he's afraid to have O'Donnell on MJ cuz he saw what O'Donnell did to

Buchanan and Ari Fleisher on the torture stuff.

[meli224]

40. yea, O'Donnell would tear him a new one!

I wish someone would go on there and give him the smack down he deserves!

[CTyankee]

42. Well, actually somebody did. Mika's father. He called Joe's foreign policy

analyses "stunningly superficial" a few months ago, right on the show. Joe had to make the best of it, altho he was not happy at the time. I think he wound up making a T shirt reading Stunningly Superficial on it...it was pretty funny, actually...

[beachmom]

64. They didn't "ALL" know. But some did.

[Vinca]

10. The difference between the parties is Democrats would want

all responsible held to account, no matter the party.

[ErinBerin84]

12. yep

I turned it on today and watched for 10 minutes,and they were insufferable. It's expected from Joe, but should Chuck Todd really be joining in with Joe on excusing torture,with Chuck saying "Oh, we all remember what the political environment was at the time", and "A trial would just be SO LONGGGGG, that definitely couldn't be done". And Joe actually said "The irony of moveon.org creating the website to MOVE ON now saying we have to LOOK BACK." Yes Joe, a blow job is equal to a war crime. Exactly.

[babylonsister]

13. And there's Chuck Todd, moralizing on what a bad idea an investigation

would be. But were this now not pursued, he'd be the first asshole criticizing lack of action.

Such a two-faced SOB.

[meli224]

18. Chuck Todd

said "this is why we have elections, America rejected Bush's way, so we don't need to go into this" oh so it's ok to break laws as long as we have an election afterwards??? how can they listen to themselves!

[babylonsister]

20. We had this election because we were repulsed by Bush. And yes,

we rejected him. So finding out about what he did while in office is now not worthwhile, even if it was criminal? Doesn't wash, chuckie.

And welcome to DU, meli224. :hi:

[meli224]

22. thanks!

:hi:

[ErinBerin84]

19. yes

Chuck makes it clear to talk about what a silly idea a trial would be every time he is on the air. Should he really be so one sided as a white house correspondent? What a tool. And Joe "We can't just call it TORTURE. They've been trying to muddy this up by calling it TORTURE!", with Mika the cheerleader nodding in agreement.

[AtomicKitten]

21. There is no ambiguity, waterboarding is torture and precedent set.

I'm getting annoyed with some referring to it as "so-called torture." We tried and executed people for waterboarding after WWII.

[annabanana]

14. They still think this is a "R/D" ... "Red/Blue". . . "Left/Right" thing...

Americans know that's not true....

[lame54]

26. Then prosecute them too

[stillcool]

28. Republicans always accuse..

Democrats of what they are doing. They will continue to use the 'witch-hunt' meme, and try their best to minimize their own parties culpability with "They did it too". And the media will be more than happy to assist them in making their case. The question is will the American people fall for it this time? Will the facts be disregarded in favor of he said/she said, charges and counter-charges?

[OneGrassRoot]

30. Step up, complicit Dems. Come clean now...

and start the redemption process.

Thing is, once things are REALLY shaken up and revealed, I wonder how many are TRULY unscathed after the last eight years of being in Congress?

Messy indeed.

But it needs a huge spring cleaning. Shoot, it needs a completely overhaul, the likes of which we may never have seen.

Obama probably knows this and it's likely why, even though he wants to transparency, he may have been hesitant about this moving forward (I'm not in his head, I don't know if he personally is wanting this to happen or not) knowing that a HUGE avalanche of shit is about to break through for all to see.

[chill_wind]

34. Scarborough is seizing on a reported quote by Porter Goss

There was a DU article floating around here yesterday containing and comparing his recollection of Intel briefings with Pelosi's, Graham's et al before he got promoted upward to his part in what will be the real stuff of investigations. Goss is attempting to use Dems as a sort of threat and shield. His intended message:

"You can't investigate me without investigating the REALLY TORTURE HAPPY DEMS. So think twice about that."

Yeah, good luck with that, man. It will have to go where it will have to go, and with or without Pelosi, your former life and times at the CIA just got a lot less private.


It's no surprise whose quote Scarborough chooses to promote:

"knew about the torture program and wondered if it was tough enough"

[CTyankee]

46. Porter Goss? That's where Joe got his "proof"? Well, guess I was right to be skeptical

when I heard Joe use that quote. I wouldn't trust Porter Goss to give me the time of day...IMO, he's a REAL bad mofo...

[chill_wind]

51. Yep. Found his quote. There's no mistaking his "message".

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2009/04/22/on-interrogations-it-s-not-just-the-bushies-who-look-bad.aspx

"Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, who in 2002 was the ranking Democrat on the House committee, has said in public statements that she recalls being briefed on the methods, including waterboarding. She insists, however, that the lawmakers were told only that the C.I.A. believed the methods were legal — not that they were going to be used. By contrast, the ranking Republican on the House committee at the time, Porter J. Goss of Florida, who later served as C.I.A. director, recalls a clear message that the methods would be used. “We were briefed, and we certainly understood what C.I.A. was doing,” Mr. Goss said in an interview. “Not only was there no objection, there was actually concern about whether the agency was doing enough.”

Senator Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, who was committee chairman in 2002, said in an interview that he did not recall ever being briefed on the methods, though government officials with access to records say all four committee leaders received multiple briefings. Senator Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, the senior Republican on the committee, declined to discuss the briefings. "

RW media will be his useful willing tool.

[JamesA1102]

36. Scarborough use to be an honest conservative

but since he got his radio show last fall (on the same station as Rush) he has taken a few steps to the right and parrots GOP talking points on a regular basis.

[Cubisa]

37. Congressional Briefings

From what I understand of the situation, if the committee members were told of this, they were unable to publicly talk about it. So even if they had reservations (and I certainly hope they did), they couldn't talk about it.

[Laelth]

68. Welcome to DU!

:dem:

-Laelth

[Proud Liberal Dem]

38. Cheney, et. al are the ones that should be "treading carefully"

The more Cheney runs in front of the camera and slams Obama and the more McCain, Graham, Lieberan argue against any prosecutions, the less "sympathy" people like them, many of whom actively and openly defended torture- if not directly approved of it- and other other "enhanced" techniques for interrogating terrorist suspects, are going to get from the public when they try to push back against the tidal wave of public opinion and pressure to prosecute individuals that seems to be forming against them all- with the release of the OLC memos and other previously classified documents and reports. It's not 2001-2004 when the GOP was able to make us Democrats look weak and wishy-washy politically for not advocating or supporting "enhanced interrogation" of our enemies.

With everything that we know now- not to mention what we might learn in the near future-the Republicans IMHO will be hard-pressed to find any real political cover for their apparent lack of concern about the fact that people were harmed and killed as a direct result of secret (il-)legal maneuvering and planning at the highest levels of the Bush (mis-)administration following (or maybe even preceding) the 9/11/01 attacks.

[Jennicut]

39. So? The top of the top is the still the Bush officials and they still would

be investigated regardless if Pelosi was investigated. If she went along with it then she should be investigated but that does not take away from the fact that the Bush administration was still the main architect of it all. They are all scared and looking to blame anyone else.

[Supersedeas]

43. yeah, and what they knew was limited presentations given in CLASSIFIED briefings

the information was NOT to leave the room.


Is that ALL the torture apologists have to cling to?

[hedgehog]

45. I'm not certain exactly what Pelosi could have done given the secrecy laws,

but if she knew about it and said and did nothing, then let her constituents kick her to the curb. Let the Justice Department investigate the rest.

[Life Long Dem]

48. And only an idiot would think this is about pointing fingers.

[meli224]

50. that is what the Rethugs do best.. Point Fingers!

They rather obliterate what this country stands for, as long as they don't get hurt in the end.

[sampsonblk]

49. You are on the money, yet again

Good post.

[rucky]

53. Yep. If they were party to it, they go down.

Joe wouldn't understand.

[totodeinhere]

55. For any investigation to be credible, it must not be influenced by partisan considerations.

Any Democrat who was found to be complicit must face the consequences just like everybody else. I don't care who it is.

[chill_wind]

56. kicking.

[uponit7771]

57. Nancy Pelosi: " ...the Bush admin black mailed me and 2 other democrats..."

....it would work no?

Thx

[Generator]

60. This infuriates me

Though in an ideal world of course, Pelosi or whomever had knowledge should have stormed out, risked everything and blew the whistle. OF course what would have happened-they would have been given a gag order and then arrested if need be-for revealing "state secrets."

And these cynical fucking evil scum wads-the Bush RepublicONS knew exactly what they were doing-they did this just to have this very moment where they can claim, "You knew too-you were as bad as us."

EXCEPT they would have been arrested and lost their job for revealing what they knew.

EXCEPT they couldn't prove what they knew because of course Bush/Cheney Fuckers would have never admitted to it, those memos would have never in hell ever been released.

EXCEPT they weren't the ones that pushed torture. Minor fucking point-heh-who wanted the torture-and what the fuck could any Democrat do about it? I knew they were torturing people-me a goddamn housewife in Oregon-everybody knew they were doing horrors in Guantanamo and Iraqi prisons and we had no power-they would have locked us up just as easily.

Nancy Pelosi or whom the fuck ever on the intelligence committee wasn't the one dreaming about torture night and day since 2001. No, that would be the evil fuckwads called the Bush admin.

They deserve to rot in hell.

And YEAH I knew this was their meme-when I heard Ari Fleshier mention this on CNN, oh yes, if you prosecute the Bush admin then you must prosecute the Dems that knew too. WOW. Just knowing of a crime you can't tell people about because you will be arrested and lose your job is the exact same thing as being a CHEERLEADER for committing the crime.

Always with the false moral eqviualency. YEAH, I wish our Dems were hero's but I also realize it would have achieved nothing. Having the facts in print today and a Dem president and still no one is being held to account. There was zero chance to stop it while the evil fucks called the Bush admin had power.

[agentS]

61. Last I recall, it was Fuhrer Bush signing the memos and Rice's name on the papers

not Pelosi or Rockefeller.

While they may have knowledge, they were not giving the go-ahead. THAT responsibility falls on the people in charge at that time.

Sorry bushtards- you fail personal responsibility 101.

[Fleshdancer]

63. Exactly

We Democrats have no problem cleaning house when needed. I couldn't care less what party these people belong to. If they knew about the torture and approved of it, then they need to go.

[Honeycombe8]

65. Pelosi says she didn't know waterboarding was being used. In her

press statement, she said the admin. told her and others at that meeting that they had rec'd legal opinions that waterboarding, etc., COULD be legally used, but they did NOT say that they had decided TO USE those methods, and that they would brief them before they used those methods.

That's what I heard Pelosi say on TV today at a press conference.

[Laelth]

66. Agreed. We don't care. We're not that happy with Pelosi, anyway. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Honeycombe8]

67. KNOWING about something, and AUTHORIZING/ORDERING something - 2 very different things!

In my mind, it's terrible to have known about something, disagreed with it, and failed to object or do anything to stop it. But that's not the same thing as ORDERING that terrible thing to be done, or AUTHORIZING or SIGNING OFF on it.