This is outrageous: Obama warned at Holocaust memorial

[cali]

By ALEXANDER BURNS | 4/23/09 1:47 PM EDT Text Size:

President Barack Obama’s visit to Capitol Hill for the Holocaust Day of Remembrance ceremony turned into more than just a solemn memorial event Thursday morning. As the president sat waiting for his turn at the podium, a series of speakers admonished him, in terms both veiled and direct, to confront Iran’s government as a threat to Jews and to Israel.

“Honoring the dead must not be the sole purpose of remembrance. It must help us shape a better future,” said Israeli Ambassador Sallai Meridor. “When a regime is again ... terrorizing its neighbors, threatening to destroy the Jewish people, how will we meet this challenge before it’s too late?”

Meridor kept his message implicit, but the subtext was clear: The world must stop Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon.

Joel Geiderman, the vice chairman of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, was more blunt, drawing a comparison between the Nazis in Germany and the present-day government in Tehran.

“At least one whole nation has been targeted for destruction with the threat to wipe it off the map,” Geiderman said, alluding to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s belligerent remarks toward Israel. “History should have taught us that democracies that let such pledges stand do so at their own peril.”


<snip>

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21632.html

[Thrill]

1. This is bullshit. Iran is the biggest overblown threat.

And they continue to misinterpret Ahmadinejad’s 'wipe it off the map' comment

[CTyankee]

3. What did Ahmadinejad actually say?

I hadn't heard this one.

[Canuckistanian]

53. Here's the story

Ahmadinejad was actually quoting the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini.

Khomeini said that the current government of Israel should "vanish from the pages of time". That translation is closest to the original Farsi meaning.

But some clown interpreted it as "wipe off the map". THEN they inferred that it meant the whole country of Israel.

Juan Cole's blog has the full story, I believe.

[CTyankee]

56. Why do you think so many Israelis believe that what was really meant was

closer to "wiped off the map"? Are they all stupid?

[Canuckistanian]

59. Because the misleading statement is repeated ad nauseum

And it's usually quoted about 5 times a week by Right Wing newspapers.

It's the old adage - lie often enough and loud enough and a lot of people will think you're telling the truth.

[CTyankee]

62. I really don't know. I will check this out. The Jews I know are pretty sharp on this subject,

which I am sure you know. I will get back to you...

[Canuckistanian]

65. Here you go: From the Wiki

"Wiped off the map" or "Vanish from the pages of time" translation

Many news sources repeated the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) statement that Ahmadinejad had demanded that "Israel must be wiped off the map",<5><6> an English idiom which means to "cause a place to stop existing",<7> or to "obliterate totally",<8> or "destroy completely".<9>

Ahmadinejad's phrase was " بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود " according to the text published on the President's Office's website, and was a quote of Ayatollah Khomeini.<10>

According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).<11>

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly, as "be eliminated from the pages of history."<12>

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."<13>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

[oberliner]

64. It was "the regime occupying Jerusalem" not "the current government of Israel"

He does not ever use the word "Israel" as he does not recognize it as a country.

He says the regime occupying Jerusalem or the Zionist entity.

[cali]

5. Although I agree that Iran is not a threat

it's absurd of Cole to parse the way he's done. Ahmadinejad's declarations of enmity toward Israel's existence is hardly a myth.

[bdamomma]

16. it is the clerics who run Iran not Ahmadinejad, and the clerics

are totally against nuclear weapons.

[Rebubula]

26. Would you mind...

...interpreting properly for me.

It seems pretty clear to me. His ability to fulfill that desire (which is not uncommon in that part of the world) is what is overblown.

[TTUBatfan2008]

2. Israel can wipe Iran off the face of the planet...

They likely have the second largest nuke stockpile in the world and certainly the largest per capita nuke stockpile.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CTyankee]

6. Would you care to explain what you mean? Are you saying that Israel

considers itself a "master race," in the way the Nazis used it?

[cali]

8. Oh I think that shit stain of a post is perfectly clear

and so are posters who make comments like it.

[cali]

7. that remark is disgusting and

has no place in this thread. I suggest you self-delete it. Conflating Nazis with Israelis is a practice that doesn't meet with approval on DU.

[Every Man A King]

24. ...

Makhoul Issam Makhoul (Hadash) said: "A leader who considers 20 percent of the population of Israel to be a demographic threat and treats them as an existential problem, is himself a racist threat to democracy, sanity, and the rule of law - and he should be disposed of immediately for the good of both peoples."

Talab a-Sana (United Arab List) said: "How would Netanyahu react if someone in the West or the U.S. said that the reproduction rate of Haredi Jews was a demographic problem? Netnayahu has double standards."

Labor whip Dalia Itzik described Netanyahu as "a serial pyromaniac." She said: "He has already lit the flames between rich and poor, and now he is trying to do the same between Jews and Arabs."

Yossi Sarid, MK (Meretz), said: "It is amazing to see how great leaders can instantly be revealed as small racists. The Palestinian problem has not yet been solved in the territories and they are already trying to create another problem with Israeli Arabs... A thousand firemen will not be enough to put out the flames one frivolous man set alight.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=373225

[Danger Mouse]

54. Bigot - terminated.

[MadBadger]

9. Why dont you explain your comment a little bit better

Id love to hear what YOU have to say.

[AZ Criminal JD]

11. Anti-semitic slugs alive and well on DU

[Behind the Aegis]

48. That one is not alive and well anymore!

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

49. That one is not alive and well anymore!

:)

[Ganja Ninja]

10. If Iran is a problem for Israel why come to us?

Go to the Chinese or whoever they're selling arms and technology to and demand they do something about it. When did we become the servant of Israel?

[AZ Criminal JD]

12. We have a veto power over Israeli military operations

The Chinese don't.

[Ganja Ninja]

13. We do?

When did we get that?

[AZ Criminal JD]

15. In 1978 as part of the Camp David accords.

We began to supply Israel with massive military and foreign aid and have continued to this day. If you don't know about American influence over Israeli military decisions you shouldn't be on a political discussion board.

[Ganja Ninja]

23. Really? Not according to Condi Rice.

"We don't say yes or no to Israeli military operations. Israel is a sovereign country," Rice said in an interview with Yahoo! News.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009504.html

[AZ Criminal JD]

29. Again if you accept at face value what a government officials says

You shouldn't be on a political discussion board. Fail.

[Ganja Ninja]

36. Do you seriously believe that we can tell the Israelis what they can and cannot do.

They tell us what they want done and then demand that we do it for them. That's how this relationship works. If you think it works the other way around they you don't understand just how much political power the Israeli lobby has.

[dalaigh lllama]

32. Why so harsh? Why discourage asking questions?

[AZ Criminal JD]

34. They are not true quesitons

And poster knows it. He/she just wants to throw some cheap zingers at Israel.

[Ganja Ninja]

40. No I'm only trying to point out that we are America.

We have helped Israel for years, been their biggest friend. They on the other hand have spied on us, sold our secrets to the Russians, attacked one of our ships, sold advanced military hardware to countries like China and do pretty much nothing to contribute to a peaceful resolution of the Palestinian conflict. And when the job gets too big for them they turn to us like we have nothing better to do but fight their battles.

[AZ Criminal JD]

41. I have been to the Middle East many times

Including most of the Arab countries, Israel and the Palestinian territories. I will be going again for a month in July. What I have found is there are very few good guys in that part of the world. But I am unwilling to ignore U.S. interests in that part of the world.

[jberryhill]

14. What Is "Outrageous" About People Expressing Their Opinion To The President?

[vaberella]

18. During a memorial Ceremony? Talk about class. n/t

[cali]

20. completely inappropriate. context matters.

and horribly rude.

[jberryhill]

27. To Some Extent

...but good manners further includes not obsessing over the manners of others.

Their behavior speaks for itself.

[cali]

28. posting a political article on a political discussion board is hardly

either obsessing or poor manners.

[onenote]

52. Cali - can you point me to a specific statement that you think was inappropriately rude?

I guess I'm just not seeing it. Political? I can understand that characterization. But at least from the story linked, I see no "finger wagging" moment directly aimed at the President.

As I stated down thread -- if President Obama appeared at a Memorial Day ceremony dedicated to remembering the sacrifices of America's men and women in uniform and a speaker -- even one from outside the US -- took the occasion to include in a speeech about those sacrifices a comment about the need for the US to make wiser choices about when it puts its sons and daughters in harms way than it has recently made and made comments about the need to preserve the constitutional values we ask our sons and daughters to fight for -- I would regard that as political, but entirely appropriate, notwithstanding the "context" was an event designed to remember the dead.

[Forkboy]

17. I don't agree with the message about Iran, but I don't see it as outrageous...

...for these people to speak about what's important to them. In fact, I think it's a fine time and place to discuss such matters, agree or not.

[cali]

21. I don't think it was an appropriate time and place.

at all.

[Forkboy]

35. Put yourself in the shoes of the people bringing it up.

Their people were almost exterminated once, and they fear it could happen again. I don't share their fear of Iran, but if these people truly fear another holocaust I can't think of a better time and place to talk about it than while people are vowing "Never again" over the last one.

As I said, I don't agree with the message on Iran, and it's not an approach I would choose to take myself, but I do understand where these people might be coming from, and see nothing outrageous about it at all.

[Captain Hilts]

19. NOT the time or place for that. Bad form. They should be ashamed. nt

[vaberella]

22. Agreed. To me it's a direct form of disrespect.

I would have liked to know if they would have done that to anyone else.

[Captain Hilts]

30. Absolutely they would have. nt

[vaberella]

39. Why are people like that? O would have gladly taken a private meeting with reps. n/t

[Raineyb]

46. I'm inclined to think they would not. n/t

[Hutzpa]

25. This is one fight

the Israel will lose, you can bank on it, if they continue this BS of oppressing and trying to suppress the President of the United States they will lose.

President Obama is not President Bush.

[baldguy]

31. Remember the Holocaust by threatening to create another?

Well, that's OK - Muslims aren't humans like us.

:sarcasm:

[Malikshah]

51. Bingo. Those that made the comment should be publicly shamed for dishonoring

the victims of the Holocaust by calling for another one.

[Occam Bandage]

33. To propose "honoring the dead" of a genocide by starting a war of choice is vile.

[CTyankee]

37. Except for many Israelis there really is no "choice."

The threat of the extermination of the Jews is serious to these people. They remember that that goal was damn near achieved by Nazi Germany because the rest of the world didn't care what happened to the Jews.

Given that, do you really wonder why many Israelis (not all by a long shot) feel the way they do?

[Occam Bandage]

38. I agree that there are often rational causes of xenophobic fear and hatred.

Understanding a region and a people's history can make their attitudes more understandable. That does not make such attitudes any more valid, any more defensible, or any more appropriate.

I do not doubt that many Israelis sincerely believe that they must take any potential threat as an immediate and life-threatening danger. I also do not believe that the sincerity of a belief is correlated with the value of that belief.

[CTyankee]

44. I am not sure "xenophobic" is an appropriate term here. to me xenophobia is

an irrational fear of foreigners. The Israelis have a rational fear when they hear that a nation with nuclear potential wishes to destroy them. Seems pretty rational to me, esp. given the long, long history of this being tried before. Remember it wasn't just the Nazis that persecuted and tried to wipe out Jews. Try the Inquisition on for size. Queen Isabella's ethnic cleansing of the Jews out of Spain. Russia's pograms. The list is quite long, isn't it? I don't think it would take a rational person long before saying "They might have a point..."

[JuniperLea]

42. All memorials need to be respected

I'm sick of people shoving their agendas into the faces of others during such events! Funerals and memorials should be off limits!

This is sick.

[cali]

43. exactly. it was disrespectful to bring politics into this.

[JuniperLea]

45. I would feel equally sickened...

If the political view was something near and dear to my heart... no, probably more so.

[BeyondGeography]

47. Obama hopes to reshape the Iranian gov'ts words and deeds by making inroads with the Iranian people

And, until those hopes are dashed, the Israelis can ring the alarm bells as loud as they want, he will not be budged from his present (and I think very wise) course.

[onenote]

50. cali - we agree far often than we disagree, but not so much on this one

At least from what I see written in the article -- and I know the words "Obama Warned at Holocaust Memorial" aren't yours -- there was no threat or warning directed specifically at Obama. Rather, speakers took the occasion of a day of rememberance of the Holocaust to express concern and to raise a general warning -- not a warning specifically directed to Obama -- that the world cannot stand idly in the face of Iran's overt expressions of ill-will towards Israel. For some, undoubtedly, the approach that the world should take will involve military action. But this was not an express call to arms. It was a call to solidarity.

Maybe it seemed too political for the occaion to you. I disagree, but respectfully. I can see people coming to different conclusions. However, the notion that these leaders were "warning" Obama -- a statement that has a sinster sounding ring (why not "warn world" or "alert Obama" or "express concern") -- that seems a bit off base to me.

To put it a different context: if the President attended a Memorial Day ceremony remembering America's war dead and a speaker got up and spoke about the need for America to be wiser in its decisions about when to put its sons and daughters in harms way and suggested that the country needed to regain its footing with respect to the core values that we ask our sons and daughters to fight for, such as the constitutional protections in the Bill of Rights, I for one would not view that "political" statement -- even if it came from a foreign dignitary -- to be "outrageous" or necessarily inappropriate.

[Forkboy]

57. Very well said, and pretty much where I was coming from.

You just put it far better than I could. :)

[Danger Mouse]

55. Tasteless.

We're not going to war with Iran, Israel, even if you really really want it.

[lynne]

58. Seems very appropriate to me based on what I read and saw in the video -

- I heard or read nothing that called out Obama or the US specifically. They seem to be remarks made in general. Certainly an event in memory of the victims of the Holocaust is an appropriate time to speak of the event itself as well as to speak of making sure that it never occurs again.

The headline is sensationalized, IMO. It appears to have had the desired effect.

[genna]

60. If they took their memorial moment to legislate, I don't blame them

If they've lost their seat at the table and that is their only forum, use it.

I hope the corollary is true, don't blame Obama when he gave you your moment later. He heard what you had to say, but didn't agree with you.


If there is some evidence out there where Iran's behavior parallels Gestapo Germany, please detail the transgressions. Otherwise that comparison is over the top.

[IndianaGreen]

61. Wait until the Taleban take over Pakistan. Israel will shit her collective pants

as we will all, facing religious fanatics allied with Al-Qaeda, with their hands on Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and the missiles to deliver them anywhere they want to.

[w4rma]

63. Yup. That's where the danger is. Not Iran. And if not for the neo-cons it wouldn't be Iraq. (nt)

[agentS]

67. The Taliban are damn near 40% complete

They got Swat and are expanding. Just today in DU I read an article about how the Taliban are freeing pakistani serfs and using them in their army as foot soldiers.

Thanks a LOT fmr. President Bush! If we weren't sloppy in 2001 the Taliban wouldn't be marching on Islamabad in 2009!

[Stephanie]

66. This is why Cheney remains in DC

He's on a mission