The torture apologists are advancing two arguments:

[ProSense]

1) Releasing the memos jeopardizes U.S. national security and 2) Investigating and prosecuting will distract from important work.

In their view: The U.S. President and his administration are above the law and should not be prosecuted for war crimes. Accountability is a liability, not an asset to democracy.

[Lerkfish]

1. k&R

not much I could add...says it all.

[tekisui]

2. Using their arguments...President Obama is infallible and immune

against any law-breaking.

[JayMusgrove]

4. Right! sure Republicons are going to go alone with THAT!!!

Look at how they dealt with Clinton,

[vaberella]

5. Actually that's the idea WE want to sell b/c it will back them into a wall.

Plus I think O already figured that idea out so that's why the Repubs are scrambling to collect.

Secondly, we need to keep asking...if we're the moral compass and we do this then any country that is imprisoning US citizens for espionage or anything of that nature can be tortured since we have no MORAL high ground to stand on----so what Bush did was jeopardize the life of US citizens abroad.

[glitch]

16. So that means if Obama pushes torture prosecution he is automatically CORRECT.

I don't know why they feel they need to say anything at all, they should be comfortable with just sitting back watching and approving whatever Obama does.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Gates, the SecDef has stated point blank that THIS INFORMATION could not be kept under

wraps even if they wanted to keep it classified. He referenced the Red Cross report leaks, et. al.

It's important work that we NOT EVER lose our moral compass and "justify torture" again within this country. :thumbsdown:

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. Why would they want to disrupt President Bush's OWN initiative?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5522977

[msallied]

7. If Bush is above the law, that means Obama is above the law as well.

Something to keep in mind should the GOP see fit to go on any Clinton-esque witch hunts. Bunch of slimy hypocrites.

[Clio the Leo]

8. So is President Obama among this group?

Based on rationale number 2.

That's a serious question.

[ProSense]

11. We'll see. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. The major argument the whole thing will dissolve into...

once prosecution talk really heats up is that the whole thing is a political witch hunt.

Watch for the people who've been calling Obama a socialist to start whining about McCarthyism.

[ProSense]

10. Let's see:

Torture memos confirming that suspects were waterboarded + investigation = witch hunt.


Not seeing it.


On edit: The three stooges' lame argument

[Politicalboi]

13. But that's what the Repukes

Are calling it. This whole last 8 years was staged. They stole from the Treasury, put the US economy in the toilet, attacked us on 9/11 and ran a dictatorship. If 9/11 was like they say it was, then why do they need false confessions about 9/11 and Saddam. This whole thing was planned except they thought they were going to get away with it. And so far they have. There's no telling at this point if they will. They may not be done yet.

[ProSense]

15. But the Repukes

are irrelevant.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. brushing it under the rug jeopardizes not only our security- it

destroys our very foundations.

ARE we a nation of laws or not? Do laws only apply to 'us'-the US when we find them convenient? Is upholding the LAWS of our nation and international agreements something that only matters to Democrats? If so, then maybe we need to really examine what the people who identify themselves as 'Republicans' believe- and what place they have in American society.

Bush was fond of using the phrase: "bringing them to justice- or - bringing justice to them"- If we don't practice accountability and uphold justice ourselves, we have absolutely no business 'exporting' it.

The best way for America to foster democracy around the globe is to practice it at home- that requires us to hold ourselves up to the ideals we champion : No Torture- honoring commitments and treaties- taking responsibility for our actions and policies.

If America cannot function as a nation while focusing on more than one issue- we are DOOMED. Claiming that "holding ourselves accountable" would make functioning as a nation difficult is NO excuse. There will never be a 'convenient' time to face the immoral and shameful actions undertaken on behalf of our country.

If WE don't hold ourselves accountable, we make it necessary for the other countries of this world to do it for us. And do we really want to go there???

[Supersedeas]

14. Mika the Meek takes both lines -- I will confront them head-on

First, acquiring intelligence can be done without resorting to medieval tactics. Does the Brazen Bull sometimes work...maybe...is it humane??? The Republican relativist view of morality is that the humanity of a particular tactic depends on if it works. Morality is not relative and neither is the law. The law is clear -- GENEVA APPLIES -- Hamdan v. Rumsfeld makes clear that a President can not avoid International Law and so these tactics are OUT OF THE WINDOW ANYWAY. The entire basis of enhanced interrogation was that the President could avoid Geneva through his war powers. The law of the land is NOW CLEAR. GENEVA APPLIES and the Armed Services lawyers who unanimously concurred that the tactics violate GENEVA must now strictly honor the law. THESE TACTICS CAN NOT BE USED IN THE FUTURE. SO THE JEOPARDY ARGUMENT IS LEGALLY MISGUIDED.

Second, the DOJ does not do the important economic and development work that needs to be done. That's why the Executive Branch has D-E-P-A-R-T-M-E-N-T-S to compartmentalize the various tasks that need to be done....like....enforcing the law. DOJ can do it job and the others departments can do theirs. There is absolutely no reason why the DOJ should not be allowed to do what the law and constitution require of the Attorney General.

[tblue37]

17. Their third bogus argument--it wasn't torture anyway. nt

[Supersedeas]

26. Waterboarding as a history technique...and 183 incidents as a factual counter

[NYC_SKP]

18. We're too busy with the economy and the wars...

Both Bush creations, ain't it grand?

We're too busy with two bush fuckups to work on a third?

:rofl:

[Born_A_Truman]

19. They are also using the argument that since we do this to our own people, it isn't torture

They are referring to SERE school. I've posted a couple of times that my husband Paul went through SERE school when he was a Naval aviator. He was waterboarded among other things. Last night we talked about it while watching KO and Rachel. He was very upset. It IS torture.

He gave me details about it and I had to go outside and calm down a bit. I was so angry after seeing the Hannity and Beck and Rush clips on KO and watching Paul's face.

He still feels SERE school is good because it prepares them for what could happen and how to survive if captured or shot down. Even though he knew one of the torturers was a doctor (he said probably a flight surgeon) at the time, he thought he might die. He lasted 5 or 6 times (not sessions--I was mistaken in a prior post about that) before he went into convulsions. He remembers being kicked in the back on the floor to make him throw up and start breathing again.

Paul said he'd like to see Beck and Hannity and Rush go though SERE school; they have no idea what they are talking about.

ETA: Doctor was there--not doing the actual waterboarding. And I left out the Rush.

[ProSense]

21. They were against it before they were for it

They're confused.

[Qutzupalotl]

20. There is a third argument

mostly coming from Cheney: that torture works. I can't see how that argument will gain much traction.

It's close to rationale #1 but still distinct. The techniques, they say, are essential to our security, so releasing details jeopardizes that security by weakening one of our "tools"; this dovetails with the objection that publicizing the practices hurts our image abroad. It does, but it does so whether it's widely known or not. Even if it were completely secret, we cede the moral high ground the moment we abuse detainees. The practices are the real cause, not the bad PR.

[jmondine]

22. Apparently, to the neocons, revealing the truth is worse than committing a crime

[ProSense]

27. Exactly. n/t

[mmonk]

23. That is correct in some sense, but I think it may be a little deeper

than that. They fear full disclosure and fall out (domestically, not in the area of security).

[ProSense]

24. True.

They're spinning these arguments to mask the real reason that they do not want the truth revealed.

[nipinbud]

25. Blow job in oval office bad. Torture good nt

[eleny]

28. "...prosecuting will distract from important work. "

:wtf: They ought to be able to say "No" in their sleep by now.