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What a shocker - David Broder is pro-torture.

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MrPerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:34 PM
Original message
What a shocker - David Broder is pro-torture.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_04/017910.php

By: Hilzoy


My Allegedly Vengeful Heart

In an unprecedented, shocking development, David Broder is against any sort of accountability for what he refers to as "torture":


"If ever there were a time for President Obama to trust his instincts and stick to his guns, that time is now, when he is being pressured to change his mind about closing the books on the "torture" policies of the past."


I normally think that there's a presumption in favor of enforcing the law, and that people who think it should be ignored have the burden of proof. So what sorts of arguments does Broder offer in support of his view? Well:


"Obama is being lobbied by politicians and voters who want something more -- the humiliation and/or punishment of those responsible for the policies of the past. They are looking for individual scalps -- or, at least, careers and reputations.


Their argument is that without identifying and punishing the perpetrators, there can be no accountability -- and therefore no deterrent lesson for future administrations. It is a plausible-sounding rationale, but it cloaks an unworthy desire for vengeance."

To which I have two responses. First, who died and made David Broder Sigmund Freud? How on earth does he presume to know what the actually motivates those of us who think that the people who authorized torture should be investigated? Speaking for myself: I have never met David Broder. As far as I know, he has no idea that I exist. So how does he know that underneath my "plausible-sounding rationale" lurks "an unworthy desire for vengeance"? And how, stranger still, does he presume to know this about everyone who thinks this -- a group that (as Greg Sargent notes) included 62% of the American public before the latest memos were released?

Second: let's just stipulate for the sake of argument that all of us who favor investigating torture do, in fact, have "an unworthy desire for vengeance". So what? Suppose our "plausible-sounding argument" is actually true: "without identifying and punishing the perpetrators, there can be no accountability -- and therefore no deterrent lesson for future administrations." In that case, by not investigating torture now, we would be setting ourselves up for future government lawbreaking. Isn't it obvious that preventing this matters more than anyone's motives?

What matters is whether this is the right thing to do. If it is, then we should do it. If it isn't, then we should not. Motives don't matter here -- any more than it would have mattered if some of the people who favored getting into World War II had an unreasonable hatred of Germans in general, or the people who brought Brown v. Board really just wanted to get into the history books.

Broder's best stab at an actual argument is this:


"The memos on torture represented a deliberate, and internally well-debated, policy decision, made in the proper places -- the White House, the intelligence agencies and the Justice Department -- by the proper officials.


One administration later, a different group of individuals occupying the same offices has -- thankfully -- made the opposite decision. Do they now go back and investigate or indict their predecessors?

That way, inevitably, lies endless political warfare. It would set the precedent for turning all future policy disagreements into political or criminal vendettas. That way lies untold bitterness -- and injustice."

When people talk about "criminalizing policy differences", there's a crucial, question-begging assumption, namely: that no one actually broke the law. If that's right, and if we know that it is, then of course investigating previous administrations for law-breaking is just a "vendetta". But whether or not laws were broken is precisely the point at issue.

If laws were broken, then the fact that they were broken as the result of "a deliberate, and internally well-debated, policy decision, made in the proper places" is no excuse -- if anything, it makes investigation and prosecution all the more important. And it also means that the people who favor prosecution are not the ones who "criminalize politics". That honor goes to the people who broke the laws while holding public office.

If we care about the rule of law, and about the idea that ours is a country of laws, not of men, then we should investigate those who break the laws, especially when they hold high office. The Presidency is a public trust, not a license for criminality.

—Hilzoy 3:05 PM
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Um, you can't make "policy decisions" that are illegal you jackass fuckwit.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Isn't it against the law to promote torture?
Sure sounds like Broder is in favor of it
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. He might just be more for kissing ass to the status quo
He does it on everything, torture is just another issue. And the status quo is mostly center right so he does a lot of RW ass kissing.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Greenwald wrote a wonderful article on this a few days back...
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. He's exactly right
Part of it has been about 35 years of very effective work by the Republican Party to promote their message and to accuse the media of a bias to the left. They've succeeded in getting the media to largely frame every issue from the right. The status quo has become fully center-right, and stays that way no matter how wrong they or their guests have been. And journalism has devolved from a quest for the truth, or at least most of the truth, to a "He said, She said" game and it doesn't matter if one opinion is absolutely insane, it's still treated like it's an equal. That's partly why something like climate change is not in question with the scientific community but from a political standpoint it is very much debated, because nobody just laughs the right off the stage when they say something goofy, they treat it like it's a valid argument.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Bill Mahr goes on and on about just this point in the most recent _Real Time_.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Broder leans conservative---need I say more.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. But but but...I thought Clinton was investigated because
He broke the law not that he got a blow job from an intern?
So is he saying the investigation of Clinton was a vendetta?
I'm confused.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. He's projecting his own feelings on the rest of us
We're surely angry, and there's plenty of reason to be, but vengeance isn't out goal. We want justice and accountability and the restoration of the rule of law. Period. This asinine attempt to lecture us about revenge is just that. Asinine. Do they think we should abandon the law just so we don't look like we're being 'vengeful'?

Dream on!
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. When is he just going to go away? Isn't he overdue for retirement?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Yeah, he's old. More importantly, he's been in Washington too long. He probably
knows a lot of the people who would be prosecuted or at least investigated in this matter. So he is not the objective journalist he would like us to believe he is.

He's just an old hack at this point. Not that I admired him much when he was younger...
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. People still read and pay attention to David Broder?
:shrug:

I guess maybe inside the beltway....

:boring:
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Chuckleberry Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. In the MSM, only Gene Robinson and Krugman have demanded accountability
Kudos to those two great ones.

I might be forgetting one or two, but I haven't heard any other MSM figure do this.
The rest wants pardons for their Bush-era buddies and accomplices.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well, it's to be expected that he'd want people to sit through.....
his teevee appearances... (Couldn't resist.)
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. He's getting pretty well smacked int he comments section...
The wacko responses get NO recommends.. The ones that recognize that torture is a crime and not a "policy difference" are getting the love. .
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Chuckleberry Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. I believe his email is dbroder@washpost.com
Or you can contact him directly from the page.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. Even supposing it was about "voters. . .looking for scalps" . . .
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 08:04 PM by pat_k
. . .So What?

The Rules of Criminal Procedure are designed to keep the process as free of passion and prejudice as possible. Doesn't matter how many voters are out for "scalps." The outcome of prosecution is justice, not "scalps."

There is no better way to "de-politicize" than to confront reality, and do what must be done: Prosecute. By seeking to escape that duty, Obama and his people are Politicizing Criminal Justice.

Obama is being lobbied by politicians and voters who want something more -- the humiliation and/or punishment of those responsible for the policies of the past. They are looking for individual scalps -- or, at least, careers and reputations.


All the sudden those "Get 'em! Get em!" repubs have a problem with "retribution" -- with sentencing convicted criminals to exact payment of their debt of retribution to the state?

Ah, but horror of horrors. Somebody David knows might suffer "career death" if convicted. And even worse, beltway insiders would suffer the "humiliation" of having been associates and defenders of war criminals.

If Bush, Cheney, Addington, Rumsfeld, Haynes, Yoo, Byee, Bradbury, and the rest of them are so secure in their own rightness; if they are so sure water torture, bashing a captive's head against a wall 30 times, or hanging them from the ceiling is not cruel, inhumane, or degrading, you'd think they'd welcome the opportunity to make their case in court and settle the "question" in the time honored way designed to give us ALL confidence in the results.

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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. Another person who should be in jail for beating Iraq war drum
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
17. How old is Broder now? Maybe he shouldn't trust his brain cells.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
18. BRODER BLOWS GOATS
why should I listen to that smack?
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