Question: since it has already been admitted we tortured what is the purpose of releasing photos?

[JohnWxy]

Justice Dept. memos have been released showing how torture was redifined so as to be acceptable. It's known that we used "enhanced" interrogation techniques. So, what is purpose of releasing the photos?

Just wondered.

[movonne]

1. I think to make the non believers see how bad it really was..If you

want to get convictions these must be shown...

[JohnWxy]

6. IF you are interested in convictions you certainly could allow them as evidence in a court proceding

for a judge or jury to see.

[vaberella]

8. Uh...no they don't because we also have the pics for Abu Ghraib

floating around. I think that's one of the weakest arguments I've heard...next to "it shows that we did wrong and are trying to make changes" as though the release of the memos and more memos is not enough.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. The worst of the Abu Grhaib pictures were removed

these are the documents that make it undeniable what we have done. They may also document multiple sites, which ends the 'bad apple' lie.

What do you have against the truth?

[glowing]

2. Apparently the others show different sites, which shows a systemic installation of a policy of

torture.. along with the horror of videos and photos of children being sodomized and women being raped. Would put a twist on further horror.

[JohnWxy]

7. this happened at Gitmo? women and children? I confess I do not know the reliabilitly of such

assertions. Certainly, these things could be looked into in a court proceeding where examination of the reliability of such tapes etc would be done before they could be admitted as evidence.

[vaberella]

10. First off..

I keep hearing people here say there are pictures of that nature. But no one else has mentioned those pictures. Secondly the videos have been destroyed, or the CIA says they have so I don't know where the videos you talk about are coming from.

[polichick]

3. To prove that it was widespread and from the top, not only a "few bad apples."

[vaberella]

11. Um...so the memos didn't point that out?n/t

[polichick]

13. The more evidence, the better - if the goal is to prosecute and hold people accountable.

[Fresh_Start]

4. government by and for the people

where the people have the right and duty to know what their government is doing.
So we know the people have been held accountable for their actions.

[radiclib]

5. Full disclosure

is always a good thing, unless there is something to hide. Failure to release them only fosters the suspicion that they show much worse than waterboarding, and implies a cover-up.

[lunatica]

9. If photos of the Holocaust had never been released

People would truly believe that no such thing happened because 'no one, especially not a government, would do that to another human being'

And if people don't get the difference between someone describing the treatment of the Jews in the Concentration camps and photos of it then they should try to describe something like this and get the same impact that the photo has.

[IndianaGreen]

23. President Truman didn't say "let's move forward" on the Holocaust

He had the Nuremberg Trials to exact justice.

[JohnWxy]

30. The haulocaust photos of people exterminated merely because of their religion, innnocents

who did not commit any acts against the German state (nor were they engaged in plots to blow up Germans) were, of course, proof of abominable crimes - against innocents, that the Nazis said did not happen.


OF course, in this case as stated in OP, we have the release of the Justice Dept. memos. Detailed descriptions of what was defined as "not being torture" in interrogation techniques.

[John Q. Citizen]

35. The Germans had tons of records on the death camps. From poisen gas requisitions to train manifests.

What is the point of keeping the pictures hushed up?

[Fresh_Start]

12. so that we don't elect torturers to national office

so we don't allow torturers to become secretary of the defense

sort of like, now that we understand Bybee's role, we don't think he should be in the federal judiciary.

[lunatica]

14. .

[FrenchieCat]

15. It always help the American case abroad to show the graphic humiliation

of Muslim Men at the hand of American Soldiers, again.

It's not nearly enough to have already shown similar photos,
and to have put out memos describing in details what was done to them.
Afterall, some of their wives and children may have missed them the first time round.
and we couldn't have that. Not now.

Then we can send Obama off to Egypt for a good speech
from the thoughtful and honest as all heck good ol' US of A!

It will be something just short of spectacular!

all done in the name of Justice served, or something like that! :applause:

[lunatica]

17. Obama didn't torture so what do you mean?

He goes to see Heads of State, Prime Ministers and Presidents and he goes to create a new environment of US diplomacy and it would actually give other countries hope to see the Bush administration held accountable. President Obama will come out looking good in any case, but justice can be served and he would come out winning some points for our country too.

[FrenchieCat]

25. SO ok....Let's humiliate Muslims again, and again, and again......

I mean their pride should be assaulted at every turn,
because once is never enough.

After all Muslims are sooo stupid,
they didn't quite get it the first time around.
Some may have blinked and simply missed the last set of humiliating photos....
so, yeah! They need to see more,
because that is the only way that they won't ever forget,
and they can love us again.... :sarcasm:

[lunatica]

28. Why should they ever forget what the Bush Administration did to them?

Should we?

And why do you think we would be humiliating them again and again and again and again when it is us who are accountable? We did the crime and you want us never to have to do the time?

[IndianaGreen]

16. Some of those tortured and abused were children of our prime prisoners

May I remind you that when we arrested "high value targets" in Iraq, we also detained their wives and children. There have been rumors since then that the boys were sexually abused and the girls raped in order to break their fathers.

[lunatica]

18. Correction: The boys were raped too

Sexual abuse is when an adult has sex with a child, but it isn't automatically a violent act. The trauma of sexual abuse is mental and emotional more than physical. The boys were raped too. Not seduced by pedophiles.

[JohnWxy]

20. These should absolutely be investigated to see if there is anything behind the rumors. But will

releasing photos (are there any of abuse of women, children, alleged (quality of intelligence?) help this be accomplished?

I believe in prosecuting the guilty, but I can't support prosecuting people in the press. That destroys there ability to defend themselves - as emotions have a way of confounding reasoned judgement.

but certainly, we should look into these questions. I believe rumors should be investigated either to be substantiated or to be proven baseless. If there is something to them, justice should be served.

[lunatica]

27. If the photos are handed over to prosecutors I would be OK with that

I don't want to see them, but I think we all need to see them because it's the truth and it was done in our name and if we turn away from them then we're being complicit. Doing nothing is something that carries as much accountability and doing something. Sins are as bad when they are committed as when they are allowed to be committed.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. The liars continue to claim it was not torture.

The pictures just might shut them up once and for all.

[lamp_shade]

22. Good luck getting a good answer.

[lunatica]

29. What would you say is 'a good answer'?

One that only agrees with what you think?

[jberryhill]

24. The Government Needs A Reason To Withhold Information

Not the other way around.

I do not need a reason to demand publication of, say, the Congressional Record or the Federal Register. They are required to be public.

When the government withholds information, the government needs a reason that will withstand legal challenge, not the other way around.

NASA said Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. I do not need a picture of that either.

[ZombieHorde]

26. To combat the lies spread by the RW. nt

[JohnWxy]

31. I was pleased to hear the testimony of the FBI agent who said they were getting good info

BEFORE they started the "enhanced" interrogation techniques. He said after that they didn't get anything out of the prisoner.

[katsy]

32. The purpose of this particular release doesn't matter.

Government should be transparent. And in that, the product of the last administration is owned by each and every one of us. We are responsible and personally, I want to know the depth of our crime. Without a thorough airing of bushco's crime... we can never wash our hands of the bloodstains. Justice belongs to those whom are wronged and we will never know the depth of our debt without seeing the crime.

And then there are those to whom "torture" is just a word. They have little understanding of the meaning of the past administration's actions. Just by using terms like "refined" and "enhanced" - these blooducking murderers are trying to minimize their monstrous acts.

Well I call bullshit on that and their sanitizing terminology. If justice is to be done, I want to fully understand and accept these monsters for what they truly are and I want the punishment to fit their crime. "Enhanced" interrogation techniques are when mommies give their toddler a cookie for telling the truth about a broken window or whatever. Crimes are what were committed in our name and I want to see what those crimes entailed.

If these visuals help bring criminals to justice all the better. And the next bastard that tries to pull this shit on ANY people held in U.S. custody may want think twice about it.

With the exception of maybe a few military defense systems (picked this out of thin air as I don't know enough about defense issues)... nothing the government does in my name should be secret. Nada.

There is very little reason, if any, in my mind for a government to operate in secrecy unless their real enemy is it's own citizens, or they are looting the taxpayers' $.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[TexasObserver]

34. Why does anyone ever NEED to see photographic evidence?

The answer is simple: Because photographic evidence is far more compelling than paragraphs that may or may not accurately reflect the things done.

Your position is an absurdity. Can you imagine a trial in which the defense objects to showing a video of a man raping a woman, on the grounds that "well, she can give her testimony describing the event, why does the jury need to see video of it?"

A picture is worth a thousand words, and often, more than that.

Your argument has been used for decades to suppress photos that reveal excess. There are many who would like for the Holocaust photos not to have been taken and disseminated. Even now, with such widespread dissemination, we have Holocaust deniers. You can be assured that in 20 years we will have deniers of these more recent atrocities, UNLESS, there is widespread dissemination of photographic evidence.

[Orsino]

36. Seeing is believing.

Those who ran the torture, and those who would like us to forget it, are afraid that should we be allowed to see the torture we paid for, we will find a new set of leaders. The better-intentioned among them may be genuinely worried about the rest of the world turning away from us.

The government wants you to forget, Citizen.