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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:38 AM
Original message
Maybe I shouldn't be posting this....
But this was brought to our attention in another thread by a poster named "wsswss":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=841653&mesg_id=842253&page=

"Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."

John Kerry
Drake University
December 16, 2003

Kerry apparently said this, and I seem to remember it, back when he was going up against Howard Dean for the nomination.

He's going to get hit with this during the debates, as it appears to be a direct contradiction to what he's saying now.

I wouldn't post this if I didn't subscribe to the hacker's philosophy that vulnerabilities should be exposed as quickly as possible so that they might get fixed before they become liabilities.

In any case, both Kerry and DU need to find an answer for this discrepancy before Rove gets ahold of it.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Fortunately our nominee has been entirely consistent and reasonable
John Kerry recognizes that that not all questions involving Saddam Hussein and national security have the same easy answers.

Three different issues:

  • Authorizing the use of force against Saddam Hussein's government of Iraq for the purpose of ensuring that it was not in possession of nuclear weapons.
  • Invading Iraq and removing Saddam Hussein's government.
  • Capturing the fugitive Saddam Hussein.



John Kerry agrees with Bush on two of those issues, and disagrees with Bush on one, namely, the invasion of Iraq. We should be glad that our nominee is able to offer a thorough and reasonable critique of Bush's Iraq policy, a critique which hones in on the most crucial executive decision a president has to make.

Despite the efforts of our political enemies to twist our nominee's words and portray him as a waffler, we know that he has a clear message and a realistic strategy for meeting our national security needs in Iraq and elsewhere.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm not thinking that that explains the
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 02:46 AM by BullGooseLoony
contradiction, here. This isn't a distortion- he's said two very different things. Before, he said what he said above- that capturing Saddam has made us safer. Now he's saying that capturing Saddam in fact made us less safe.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. He says that the quagmire in Iraq is making us less safe
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 02:49 AM by Cronus
Show me the exact quote where Kerry says "Capturing Saddam has made us less safe"

I'll be checking in from time to time looking for your link. I'm sure you know I won't be holding my breath.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13


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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Kerry said that invading Iraq
has made us less safe. And we captured Saddam, which made us more safe.

So, have we been made both less safe and more safe at the same time?
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Link?
Don't see one. Surely you don't expect us to discuss something that is just your perception.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Don't give me that fucking bullshit.
Did you watch his speech and what he said on Letterman? He said these things repeatedly.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Link?
You don't have the goods, do you?


+++
"John Kerry won't divert our resources on misadventures like Iraq and will fight (the war on terrorism) in a way that is both strong and smart, which this administration has failed to do," Lockhart said.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Here:
Bill Kristol:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/587jxocg.asp

Don't play this stupid-ass game. I'm on your side, for Christ's sake.

Jesus.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Clear as mud
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 04:29 AM by Cronus
You quoted William Kristol, a GOP activist and signatory to the PNAC document. Here's what he said in your quoted article:

+++
by William Kristol
09/07/2004 12:20:00 PM

JOHN KERRY said yesterday that Iraq was "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time."

-snip-

Kerry asserted that "those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."
+++

I bolded the Kerry quotes and dumped Krusty the Klown's propaganda, which I refuse to repeat.

Here's your claim from one of your posts :

"Kerry said that invading Iraq has made us less safe. And we captured Saddam, which made us more safe."

In the following, if your statement has any veracity, either propositions A or B must be true, surely you would agree,

A/ a source exists where Kerry actually said the two sentences you claim he said, in context, right next to each other,

OR

B/ two or more sources exist for the quotes, which were not spoken in context with each other.

In the first, (A), I would have expected a link to something like, say, "invading Iraq has made us less safe. And we captured Saddam, which made us more safe.", said Kerry.

You didn't supply that.

Perhaps that quote doesn't exist as claimed. And if that doesn't exist, surely the two citations must exist seperately, as in proposition (B), and were crammed together out of context by someone who wanted to manufacture a scandal out of whole cloth, the GOP spin machine perhaps, creating the talking point du jour (Kristol is *always* a good repeater station for that, thanks for quoting him).

I did note that you repeat this spin immediately following Kerry's successful speech, and claim we have to rally against this because it's somehow important.

You made a claim that seemed to me to be unsupported, so I asked you for quotation sources for the things that you claim Kerry has said, which were,

1/ "Invading Iraq has made us less safe"

and

2/ "And we captured Saddam, which made us more safe"

(Initially, you even claimed that "Now he's saying that capturing Saddam in fact made us less safe.", another quote that you haven't produced a link to either.)

You provided the following quotes:

" the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Nope, doesn't match your claims, but you also provided the quote:

"...those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."

In this quotation, Kerry clearly states that the world is safer with Hussein's capture. I think we all agree on this. Surely the capture of a madcap despot is a good thing for all humanity and each despot captured makes us all that little bit safer, although perhaps that applies more to the people he had power over than us fatcats in the USA.

So we agree that Kerry says the world is a safer place with Hussein's capture, and that the world will be better off because of it. On that point, I don't think your interpretation was far off my own.

So all that remains is for you to substantiate your claim that Kerry said, "Invading Iraq has made us less safe".

I think I heard him say, if I may paraphrase also, something to the fact that the bungled war in Iraq is the wrong war, in the wrong place, referring to the fact that Al Quaida and the 9/11 perpetrators were not linked to Iraq.

I only ask because I have never heard Kerry say "Invading Iraq has made us less safe", nor seen it before you introduced it into DU. Is it too unreasonable to ask for your sources?

And as for being on the same side, I wouldn't have taken these things out of context and promulgated them as if Kerry was a fucking idiot for "saying that", particularly when I want him to win, so forgive me if I don't shower you with rose petals.

Anyway, I'm willing to have a discussion about this if it's true, and you have yet to prove it. I don't have an ax to grind, and I'm not daring you to produce your sources, I'm making a simple, polite, understandable request. Sorry if it ticks you off a bit, but you'll get over it, I'm sure, as it's going to happen frequently.

I just plain have never heard what you claim to have heard, and I want to hear, read or see it as well. When I made my initial request I didn't expect you to have a hard time doing it, nor did I expect you to be upset that I would ask. Surely you would ask too, right?

Where's the source?

Thanks.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. You must have put a lot of work
into that pointless post. Now, the quote has been cited many times below.

In the future try just answering the question and solving the problem- after all, that was the point of the thread. But, no, you wanted to have some kind of bullshit confrontation.

Have a look at posts like 9 and 10- posts that answer the question and solve the problem. Try a little harder next time.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. So you just don't haev the good to support your assertions
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 10:42 AM by Cronus
I'm reading between the lines here as you won't address the issue of your unsupported claims.


+++

How to start each day with a positive outlook :

1. Open a new file in your PC.

2. Save it as "George W. Bush"

3. Delete it.

4. Empty the trash.

5. Your PC will ask you, "Are you sure you want to delete George W. Bush?"

6. Answer calmly, "Yes" and press the mouse button firmly.

7. Feel better and vote in November......
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I think you're on right track, here...
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 03:00 AM by BullGooseLoony
The capture of Saddam itself has made us more safe, but the invasion of Iraq and the way it was planned and carried out has made us LESS safe.

I think that has to be his answer, almost verbatim.

On edit: And I think he has to throw in there that, ultimately, the trade-off has gone against us because the safety gained by capturing Saddam was overshadowed by the recklessness of the invasion.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. The Americans in Iraq are more secure because Saddam was..
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 05:50 AM by Hubert Flottz
found in his hidey hole! America is not as safe now because we invaded Iraq in the first place, using bogus interpretations and distortions of actual facts contained in American and British intelligence reports! Saddam had zero WMD or active "nukular" weapons program, as advertised! Saddam had no connection to 9/11, nor did he constitute an imminent threat to the continental US or UK, as advertised! The US invaded Iraq even though the UN inspections had turned up nothing! The UN was still mostly against the invasion of Iraq, even though Bush and Powell had lied to them, about American and British Intelligence!

The invasion of Iraq has created more hate and discontent in the middle east, where the people who pulled off 9/11 came from, by the way! The fact that America is building bases in Iraq now, will cause nothing but more hate! The prison abuse and the killing still going on in Iraq, to this day, creates more hate! Bush is creating terrorists by fanning the flames of hate and discontent in the middle east!

Bush is the man who got it all wrong in Iraq! Bush broke it! Would you hire a man who's lies had caused the deaths of thousands? The fact that John Kerry can change his mind, as things in this war develop, should be looked upon as a GOOD quality! Bush lied to John Kerry too, about MANY things before he invaded!
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. No, he is not saying that capturing Saddam made us less safe
He said "we have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure" (Kerry NYU speech). Kerry is criticizing Bush for choosing to go to war and then botching it. The capture of the fugitive Saddam Hussein is not one the things Kerry is criticizing.

One could infer that Kerry would be critical of the Bush administration's actions that made Saddam Hussein a fugitive rather than a head of state. That is truly a different question.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. So, you're basically saying
post #10 is the way to go?
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Yeah, pretty much
When the question is put to them, Kerry spokespeople need to draw the distinction, especially if the questioner is putting words in Kerry's mouth.

(Saw that on Charlie Rose tonight--Note to Mr. Holbrooke: Please study our candidate's actual prior statements on the issues.)

There may be more effective counterattacks. John Kerry does not need to offer an opinion on the apprehension of each and every criminal. George Bush does need to explain why violence and unrest continue to grow more than a year after he declared "mission accomplished."
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Good.
I feel better about this.
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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Don't twist Kerry's words

Kerry never said "capturing Saddam made us less safe". That's a crock.

Kerry said that invading Iraq prematurely without international backing, a plan to win the peace, etc. etc. has made us less safe and he is absolutely 100% correct.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
43. Dean never said that either,
yet Kerry was attacking him with this.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. He also said Saddam belongs in hell
The way Bush prosecuted the war made us less safe. The way Bush peemptively invaded made us less safe. The way that Bush refused to let the process of inspections play out made us less safe. Bush didn't have to invade. Clinton, Kerry and others voted years ago to do whatever we could short of invasion to effect regime change in Iraq. The removal of Saddam was of course a good thing for the security in the region and for the security of the world community. The manner in which Bush removed him has made us vulnerable because of the cluster bombing of civilians and the overwhelmingly American occupation which created an excuse for regional elements to blame and target Americans and those interests close to us.

There was a right way to remove Saddam and a wrong way. Bush chose the wrong way and we are less safe because of it.
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shockingelk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
42. context - full speech
Shortly after he took office, Thomas Jefferson - America's first chief diplomat - laid out the goals of American foreign policy: "We are pointing out the way to struggling nations who wish, like us, to emerge from their tyrannies." For 225 years - and with gathering force during the course of the last century - these words have guided an America that has come to believe that the surest way to defend our people is to advance our ideals.

Saturday evening, halfway around the world, in a dark hole beneath a mud shack on a sheep farm, Jefferson's promise was fulfilled again. Saddam Hussein was a totalitarian who waged a reign of terror against his people and repeatedly endangered the peace of the world. And no one can doubt that we are safer - and Iraq is better - because Saddam Hussein is now behind bars.

His capture is a great tribute to the skill and bravery of the U.S. Armed Forces, who showed Saturday as they do everyday what it means to have the greatest military in history - and why we must never retreat from having the strongest military in the world. This nation stands united with a single message for our troops: Job well done.

Saddam Hussein's capture also represents a two-fold opportunity. For President Bush, it is still another chance to transform the situation in Iraq from an American occupation to a global coalition. And it is an opportunity for America to reclaim the best of our historic role overseas and to once again lead the world toward progress and freedom.

From the Battle of Belleau Wood to the Battle of the Bulge, from Korea to Kosovo, the story of the last century is of an America that accepted the heavy responsibility of its historic obligation - to serve as not just a beacon of hope, but to work with allies across the world to defend and extend the frontiers of freedom.

But today, we confront a dual danger - two major detours from the true path of American leadership. On one side is President Bush who has taken America off onto the road of unilateralism and ideological preemption. On the other side are those in my own party who threaten to take us down a road of confusion and retreat.

Iraq has been ground zero in that ideological tug of war, with difficult decisions that had to be made, and complicated issues of national security that had to be discussed with Americans honestly and responsibly.

When America needed leadership on Iraq, Howard Dean was all over the lot, with a lot of slogans and a lot less solutions. One moment he supported authorizing the use of force, the next he criticized those who did. He said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, then he said he'd figured out that he didn't. He said he opposed the war all along, but less than a month before it began he said that if the U.N. wouldn't enforce its own mandates, then 'unilateralism is a regrettable, but unavoidable choice.'

And at other times, Governor Dean said that we should not go into Iraq unless the UN Security council gave us authorization. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how a President protects the United States. I have said many times I believe that America should have worked to get international backing before going to war. Our diplomacy should have been as good as our soldiers. A true international coalition would have been better for our troops, better for our security, better for Iraq's future. Perhaps it reflects inexperience, but for Howard Dean to permit a veto over when America can or cannot act not only becomes little more than a pretext for doing nothing - it cedes our security and presidential responsibility to defend America to someone else -- a profound danger for both our national security and global stability.

The Democratic Party has always been stronger than that. Woodrow Wilson led America in a fight for self-determination and against old empires. Franklin Roosevelt defended freedom from fascism. Harry Truman contained the expansion of communism and introduced the Marshall Plan. John F. Kennedy pledged a "long twilight struggle" to end the Cold War. Jimmy Carter renewed America's commitment to human rights around the world. And from Haiti to Bosnia, Bill Clinton placed America's might on the side of America's values while he expanded our circle of allies at the same time. And none of them would ever have given others the power to prevent America from defending its interests or its ideals.

To follow the path that Howard Dean seems to prefer is to embrace a "Simon Says" foreign policy where America only moves if others move first. And that is just as wrong as George Bush's policy of schoolyard taunts and cowboy swagger. Our job is to lead the world to a better place, to convince allies of mutual interest and global responsibilities.

We need a President who will not walk away from a dangerous world - and a President who will not walk alone by choice - but a President who will lead a new alliance of free nations to build a new era of security and peace. A President who will rally democratic countries to join in a lasting coalition to address the common ills of a new century - terrorism, loose nukes, and drug trafficking, environmental destruction and epidemic disease. And with your help, that's the kind of President I will be.

I believe it was right to hold Saddam Hussein accountable for violating UN agreements. I believed then - and I believe now - authorizing force was the only way to get inspectors in, and the only way ultimately to enforce Saddam Hussein's compliance with the mandate he had agreed to, knowing that as a last resort war could become the ultimate weapons inspections enforcement mechanism.

And I also believe that those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe we are not safer with his capture don't have the judgment to be President - or the credibility to be elected President.

A year and a half ago, as this campaign was starting, I argued that for Democrats to win America's votes we must first convince the voters that we will keep America safe.

I believed then and I believe now that Americans deserve better than a false choice between force without diplomacy and diplomacy without force. To provide responsible leadership, we need to take the third path in foreign policy - a bold, progressive internationalism - backed by undoubted military might - that commits America to lead in the cause of human liberty and prosperity. If Democrats do not stand for making America safer, stronger, and more secure, we won't win back the White House - and we won't deserve to.

We need a President who can take us back to America's rightful path in the world because President Bush has taken us so far off course. Whether it is failing to support a new Afghanistan or supporting a failed coup in Venezuela, whether it is pushing the world away on the Kyoto treaty or pushing the world into danger over North Korea, this Administration's go-it-alone attitude has endangered our interests and enraged those who should be our friends.

Nowhere is that clearer than in Iraq. The Bush Administration has not just been unilateralist in war, but unilateralist in the ongoing guerilla struggle. And we have been paying too high a price - in dollars and the deaths of young Americans - to continue down this road. Let's be clear: Our problems in Iraq have not been caused by one man - and simply capturing Saddam Hussein does not finally and fully clear the path to a peaceful and democratic outcome. This is a moment of opportunity, a turning point when the Administration can and should face the realities of how you gain international support in this effort. We cannot expect other nations to join us now if the Administration prohibits them from sharing the reconstruction because they opposed us previously. That not only defies common sense - it's childish retribution which puts our troops at greater risk. It's time we leave no doubt what we believe: Iraq belongs to the Iraqi people, not Halliburton and Bechtel.

The Administration's reluctance to share power and responsibility is all the more stunning because it prevents them from investing Europe and Middle Eastern neighbors in their own self-interest not to have a failed state on their doorsteps and borders.

Saddam's capture is a victory for the Iraqi people; they no longer need to fear the return of a brutal dictator who terrorized them for so long. But Saddam's capture also represents a vital chance for the United States to build the coalition to win the peace that we should have built to win the war. To offer a real invitation to the rest of the world that says: "Join us. Share the burden of creating a peaceful and stable Iraq because your security depends on it too."

The threat of Saddam himself is gone. But the threat of terror continues to reach from the streets of Baghdad and the Middle East to the streets of Asia, Europe, and America itself. We must not waste this opportunity to rebuild alliances, both in Iraq and against global terrorism.


We owe this kind of internationalism first of all to our troops. Today American soldiers in Iraq fear getting shot while getting a drink of water. They wonder whether the old station wagon driving toward their checkpoint will explode when it gets there. For their sake, we must put aside arrogance and swagger and enlist other countries to share the burden and the authority in Iraq so that we get the targets off the back of our soldiers. We need tools of diplomacy equal to the tools of war. Our forces are doing their job and doing their best. Now it's time for America to have leaders that do the same.

With Saddam in custody, with others who did not join us in Iraq now celebrating that fact, we must reach out to the U.N. and our allies - and internationalize the reconstruction of Iraq. I hope that the President exercises that kind of leadership.

Unfortunately, on three different occasions, when he could have led in the past, he stubbornly refused to do so.

The first opportunity came last fall after Congress authorized the use of force. President Bush promised America he would "work with the UN Security Council to meet our common challenge." Instead, he refused to give the inspectors time and rushed to war without our allies.

There was a second opportunity - after the Iraqi people pulled down Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad. Again, the President could have worked with the United Nations to share the burden of rebuilding Iraq - to ensure that the Iraqi people would not see us as an occupying power. And again, the President chose to let America shoulder the burden alone.

Then this Fall, the President addressed the UN General Assembly. Other nations stood ready to stand with us - to provide troops and funds to stabilize Iraq. But instead of asking for their help, the President repeated the old formulas of his unilateralism, raising the risk for American soldiers and the bill to the American treasury.

Today, the risk is still too high and the bill is still too large. But today, we have also been given that rare fourth chance to set things right. We can return to the world, reject the idea of going it alone and hoarding all the power, and forge a shared response to the challenges of Iraq. No more snubbing allies, no more stonewalling the U.N., and no more sham coalitions. It's time to win the peace, and it's time to do it right.

So President Bush needs to take four immediate steps.

First, go back to the international community and to the United Nations and offer a real partnership in Iraq. We need a new Security Council resolution to give the United Nations authority in the rebuilding process and the development of a new Iraqi Constitution and government. Ambassador Bremer and the Coalition Provisional Authority should be sincerely thanked for their service - and replaced by a UN Special Representative in Iraq who will remove the stigma of foreign occupation from our presence there. The United States has ample power and influence to establish a working relationship which guarantees- indeed guides us to-an outcome which meets our goals and security needs.

Second, the UN authorization for international forces in Iraq is finally in place, but to expand participation we have to share responsibility, which the Administration still won't do. We need to conduct real diplomacy with the goal of really getting boots on the ground.

As we internationalize the work in Iraq, we need to add 40,000 troops - the equivalent of two divisions - to the American military in order to meet our responsibilities elsewhere - especially in the urgent global war on terror. In my first 100 days as President, I will move to increase the size of our Armed Forces. Some may not like that. But today, in the face of grave challenges, our armed forces are spread too thin. Our troops in Iraq are paying the price for this everyday. There's not enough troops in the ranks of our overall armed forces to bring home those troops that have been in Iraq for more than a year.

President Bush's policies have overextended our military - and turned reserves into fulltime soldiers. Iowa, with a population of less than three million people, is in the Top 10 states in the proportion of National Guard troops on active duty; more than 2,600 of Iowa's 9,500 Army and Air Guard soldiers have been activated. George Bush and Don Rumsfeld say we have enough troops. I think they're putting politics and pride ahead of what is right for our soldiers, our reserves, and our security.

Third, we need a reasonable plan and a specific timetable for self-government, for transferring political power and the responsibility for reconstruction to the people of Iraq. That means completing the tasks of security and democracy in that country - not cutting and running in order to claim a false success for the sake of the 2004 election. The timing of events in Iraq should not be keyed to the timetable of the Bush re-election campaign. Genuinely engaging the Iraqi people in shaping new institutions is fundamental to the long term cause of a stable, peaceful, and independent Iraq that contributes to the world instead of threatening it.

The actions we now take to try Saddam Hussein can advance that hope - or set it back. Justice must come to a brutal tyrant who has threatened the world and murdered hundreds of thousands of his own citizens.

But it must come through a new American partnership with the people of Iraq and of the international community. This is a unique time when we can show and not just speak the values of a free and just society to Iraqis, to the rest of the Arab world, and to our own people here at home. We can demonstrate in an unforgettable way that the rule of law includes rights that cannot be denied even to a despot. What a powerful signal that would be - a signal that would reverberate across the globe and even across generations.

So the question of how to structure the trial of Saddam Hussein is not just a legal issue; it is a test of our values and our intentions. Saddam Hussein committed heinous crimes against the Iraqi people and the international community, but we cannot try him in some kind of kangaroo court without due process of law. To do so would reinforce our image as an occupying power and set back the cause of a new beginning in Iraq. We need to work with the Iraqi leadership to create a path to true justice that is fair and credible - in their eyes, in the eyes of other Arab and Muslim people, and in the eyes of the international community.

After working with the Cambodian government and the United Nations for years to form the upcoming genocide tribunal in Cambodia, it is clear to me that we cannot and must not ignore the emotional and political stake the Iraqi people have in this issue. But as I saw in Cambodia, the international community also has a major stake in the quest for justice.

The Iraqi people should see the trial firsthand because that will prove once and for all that Saddam Hussein is gone. It was important that Nazi war criminals be tried in Germany, just as it will be important that those responsible for the Killing Fields be tried in Cambodia. Trying Saddam Hussein in Iraq will provide an essential sense of closure for the Iraqi people. And we and the world have a deep interest in showing the Iraqi people that a judicial process with transparency, fairness, and justice can provide accountability and a penalty that fits the crime.

That's why I believe a mixed tribunal, in which international judges, prosecutors, and investigators work alongside Iraqis, is the best guarantee of a fair and valid process. While setting up a credible mixed tribunal in Iraq may be more difficult then going to an international tribunal in the Hague, I believe it will be more credible in the long term; it will give Iraqis a place and a stake in the process - and it will lead to a stronger judicial system in that country for years to come.

Fourth, as we establish the rule of law, we urgently need to rebuild a sense of basic order. Today lawlessness and chaos, rampant violence and property destruction, threaten Iraqis and undermine the creation of a civil society. The job properly belongs to the new Iraqi security forces. And the United States and the allies we enlist need to do a far better job of training them - and then transferring authority to them.

The Iraqi military battalion we just trained suffered a massive desertion when about half the troops left over inadequate pay. We need to get the planning right and stop making elementary mistakes. We need realistic support, equipment and pay. And we need to get this Iraqi Security force into shape to achieve early successes so that Iraqis can have confidence in their army and the troops can have confidence in themselves.

Iraqi police forces also need adequate training and mentoring. Here at home, a police officer has four to six months of training. We may not have that luxury in Iraq, but training must be sufficient - not just speedy. And the police forces too need real support, equipment and pay. Countries like Italy, France, and Spain have national police forces with a paramilitary capability. They could contribute by preparing and mentoring a similar Iraqi force.

But they won't do it unless the Bush Administration changes course, renounces unilateralism, and turns a new page in Iraq and in all our international relations. We must lead, not order.

We should be prepared to act to protect our interest, but we must also be ready to listen to others.

So leadership is the issue - abroad and at home.

In a world shadowed by terrorism, Americans are asking. Who can best defend us? Who can meet the challenge of this dangerous time? In the next election, Democrats owe the American people more than anger; we owe them answers. To earn their trust, we must prove by our experience and our vision that our approach to national security and foreign policy is strong and credible - and the best way to defend our nation.

I am here to say that holding Saddam accountable was important, even if not always popular. I am here to say that doing nothing would have been the most dangerous path of all. But I am also here to say that the price of unilateralism in Iraq is too high, and Americans are paying it - in resources that could be used for health care, education, and our security here at home. We are paying that price in respect lost around the world - respect we need to win the war not just in one country, but the global war on terror. And most important, the price is paid in the lives of young Americans forced to shoulder the burden of this mission alone.

We must change a course of unilateralism and pre-emptive war that is radically wrong for America. Saddam's capture offers even this Administration the chance to make change. And if we as Democrats are to change America, we cannot seek to replace the Bush unilateralism with confusion and retreat. Let's bring in our allies, take the target off our troops, and let's finally win the peace in Iraq. In a time of fear, in a uncertain world, let's affirm that America's security depends on our own strength, but also on our ideals, and on the will and wisdom to forge a new era of internationalism where this nation truly and proudly is, as Lincoln said, the "best hope of earth."
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. kick
:kick:
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have answered it this way...
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 02:51 AM by Hepburn
...in December 2003, the 911 Commission report had not come in with the findings of no connection between 911 and Saddam and, further, the final reports on WMD and Iraq had not come in. The status of what intelligence Kerry had at that point in time was that Saddam was wrapped up in and responsible for all of this and possessed stockpiles of WMD that were a danger to the United States. After all, on March 8, 2003, Bush went to Congress and in a letter, signed by him as POTUS, set these facts before the US Congress with a request to wage war against Iraq. Congress and the American public had an absolute right to believe that the POTUS was telling the truth. Why would anyone question in a situation like this - a declaration of war - that the POTUS was lying?

Kerry, like the rest of us, we were fooled by the lies of George W. Bush. And like the rest of us, who are reflective and open to the truth, when Bush's lies could no longer be hidden and the truth came out, we knew that we had been fooled and that if we have been given true and not false information by the POTUS at the time, our views, too, would have been different back at that point in time. And we accordingly changed them when the truth replaced the lies of George W. Bush. An analysis is only as good as the information available. And in this case, all Kerry had to rely upon, and did justifiably rely upon, were the lies of George W. Bush.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Kerry said today that
we knew immediately after 9/11 that Saddam had nothing to do with it.
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Has Bush conducted the war in Iraq effectively since then?
Clearly he has not. Those mistakes collectively in Iraq have made us less safe.

That is why Kerry is saying something very different now.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
13. ?????
Can anyone even find a debate that was supposed to happen at Drake University in 2003? I can't.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'm pretty sure he said this.
This is what he used against Dean.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Show me the link...
I can't find any evidence of a debate at Drake University.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. He did make a speech at Drake University
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. You quoted debate...
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 03:18 AM by Luminous Animal
You are right...

""those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president." "

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_3166588,00.html

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. No, I didn't.
Quote me.

It's not my quote, anyway- it's wsswss's. And I have no idea where he got it.

But I was a Dean supporter, and I remember Kerry saying this kind of stuff.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Sorry...
Keyboard mistep on the subject title. I provided a link to Kerry's quote.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
15. he is saying catching Saddam in itself does not make up for the mess
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 03:07 AM by JI7
Bush created. it's about bush and how he fucked things up such as not planning for things.

he isn't saying catching saddam made us less safe.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Gotcha.
Yep....he needs to memorize a talking point to make that clear, though, because you know damn well that Bush is going to bring this up during the debates, if not before.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. yeah, he needs to make it clear on that point
bush will try to turn any criticism into how he did things into trying to claim that kerry supports saddam or kerry thought saddam was an ok guy.

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21winner Donating Member (374 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. Such prophecy.
Dean ridiculed Hussein's capture. Dean just never understood how stupid he was. The voters agreed with Kerry. The world is safer and better off without Hussein. And Dean doesn't have the judgment or credibility to be elected President. So what is wrong with that?

I see no problem for Kerry in the debates.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Dean's "problem" was that he linked Hussein's capture
directly with the invasion. In other words, if we hadn't invaded, Hussein would never have been captured.

Apparently, in this world we don't have to make that connection, though.
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ever_green Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
29. Saddam was bad
Well, even the most antiwar people have to say Saddam was a horrible man, that's not really debatable. But that is no reason to go to war and that's what Kerry says. There's no flip flopping there.
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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Look up the Bush quotes on this subject

Bush said he wanted the authority to go to war "in order to win the peace". That's a direct quote. Al Fraken played a series of them back on Air America today.

Bush lead Congress to believe that he needed that authority to be in the best bargaining position with Saddam. Bush said he would build a coalition, and try to win the peace. Then once he got the authority he rushed headlong into war without a coalition or a plan.

The threat of force plus inspections could of been sufficient to do the job.
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ever_green Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yeah
No one is going to say getting Saddam wasn't good. But it wasn't worth it. We were misled, now we have a huge mess and more terrorists than before. Bush is an idiot.
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highnooner Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. I have no problem with the apparent contradiction
A lot has changed in the past nine months.

Have the casualties gone up? Yep.
Do the troops have control over the country? Nope.
Are the troops pissed that they are having to stay longer than they were originally told? Yep.
Are terrorist groups more active now? Yep.
Does Iraq have sovereignty? Not really.
Will free elections happen in January? Probably not.
Was there prisoner abuse? Yep.

I could go on.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
34. Yes you should be posting these .
It seems every day people have to come to Kerry's defense , because of things he Say's but didn't mean ,but were taken out of context , that need to be put in a new context ,because of some new event, that will shed new light on the matter, which is not the same subject that he was taking about, why do we have to define Kerry , I quess he doesn't want to do it himself.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. I lost $10 yesterday.
Today, I found $1 of it. Am I $1 richer, or $9 poorer?

Hint: Saddam is the $1; the Iraqi invasion is the $10.

Sure, I'm happy to get the $1 back, but what I really want is all $10.
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shockingelk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
38. No problem, check why he voted for the authorization
"As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime."
John Kerry, October 9, 2002

Every bit of criticism Jr offered Kerry is disarmed by remembering what Kerry's position always has been - not what the Bush campaign says it was. http://fearofclowns.com/text/kerry_v_bush_iraq_04.09.20/
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
39. How many Americans have changed their minds on Iraq since last December?
Probably quite a few, eh?

That puts Kerry in the same boat as all the people who've 'woken up' to Bush's huge mistake since December 2003.

Bush used that Kerry quote you posted in a speech yesterday. While I'm sure it affects people who still think the war is a 'good idea', for those who have changed their minds about the war, it just puts Kerry on the same philosophical vector they've been on themselves.

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
41. We might not get the 300 word vocabulary voting block
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 08:05 AM by Jim4Wes
because they will need the GOP to translate. But other than that not worried. Kerry's statements yesterday are not in contradiction.
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