Calling Brain Trust -- Help me Follow This (re: CBS Documents)

[HFishbine]

Let's see where this leads, DUers.

- Burkett says he was given the now infamous memos by one Lucy Ramirez.
(http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20040921/1a_cover21x.art0.htm)

- Midland County birth records show the birth of a girl to one Lucy Ramirez and one Raymond Gutierrez (http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/tx/midland/vitals/births/1948/midlab48.txt)

- Midland County birth records show the birth of one Armando Gutierrez, Jr. to one Amando Gutierrez and one Francisca Rodriquez. (http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/tx/midland/vitals/births/1945/midlab45.txt)

- One Armando Gutierrez was involved with Republican operative Roger Stone in storming the 2000 Dade County vote recount. (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:BLrCJIFeAsYJ:www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,89450,00.html+Gutierrez+Roger+Stone&hl=en)

Questions to investigate:

- Is the Armando Gutierrez who was part of the mob that decended on the Dade County recount the one who lived (lives) in Midland Texas or his son?

- Are Armando Gutierrez and Raymond Gutierrez brothers, making them related my marriage to the Lucy Ramirez of Midland?

- Is the Lucy Ramirez of Midland the one who gave Burkett the documents?

I've got to get some work done. Have at it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. Damn, your good

this is all starting to fit together.



Our friend's Roger and Nydia Stone do seem to be popping up in the middle of every connection.

[spanone]

34. Boy, what a creepy looking couple. Think they swing?

[mistertrickster]

44. According to the Enquirer, they do . . . ickky thought, isn't it?

More Republican family values . . .

[diatribe]

47. Yep, they do swing:

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3108sharpton.html

"But Roger Stone was publicly kicked out of the Bob Dole Presidential campaign in 1996, when it was reported that Stone and his then-wife had placed an advertisement soliciting "swinger" sex from other couples."

[kikiek]

2. Do you think he was given a real name though?

[HFishbine]

6. Very Good Point!

That's something to keep in mind.

[punpirate]

9. You bet it is....

Geez, this is a mess. Let's just start with what's known. There is no mention of Midland, TX regarding a Lucy Ramirez in the USA Today article. It says she called from Houston, so she could have been born anywhere. There's no way one can make a rational assumption it's the same person.

Guiterrez and Ramirez are like Smith and Jones in the Spanish-speaking world.

There's no rational assumption that can be made that the name is real, unless the phone records confirm. Burkett hasn't released the phone records.

Burkett has never seen the woman and only spoken to her on the phone. He claims to have burned the originals, so there's no forensic evidence, i.e., fingerprints. (I, frankly, can't believe how incredibly stupid that was.)

He was given them by a man he doesn't know, and did not ask for identification.

Therefore, the only lead in any of this is a phone number which is not yet forthcoming.

All else is idle speculation.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Good analysis...

...but I've seen DU's "research corps" squeeze blood from the proverbial turnip. Go DU go!!

23.

[HFishbine]

11. Then sit on your hands

Midland has some signficance. I'm not drawing any conclusions, but for those interested in investigating, you have to start somewhere and curious possible connections are a good place to begin. Dead end? Maybe. Maybe not, that's why I've called to DU's help -- so that we can move it forward.

[punpirate]

14. You don't have an ID.

Period.

Midland is not referenced. Its only significance is that you found a Texas birth record by that name, and that Bush once lived there. What about a name change by marriage? Or that Burkett is spinning out another tale, for reasons unknown.

What you have, in reality, are figments of the imagination.

It's not a matter of sitting on one's hands. It's a matter of having a starting place that's somehow grounded in reality. Otherwise, one is simply spinning tales, and wasting time.

Now, here's a hint on how to proceed. Houston is named as the originating point of the call, right? Go to the Harris County public records and look up Lucy Ramirez in the voting records, which are online, and if you find one, get the address, and cross-reference that against the property records, which are also online. Then, just for shits and giggles, check the name against the corporate records and the DBA records, which are also online.

On edit, I should mention that all that should be done for the purposes of finding names and phone numbers and possible associations. You may get three cleaning ladies and four housewives, but without anything else, those public records are the best place to start, in the absence of better information.

But, a real phone number would be a quicker starting place.

Birth records in Texas are a bad place to start because they can't be referenced against death records.

Cheers.

[HFishbine]

15. I like your sig line

[crispini]

36. Hmmmm...

A couple of Lucia Ramirez's at HCAD. And a couple at the Harris Votes website.

[crispini]

37. One at the University of Illinois Medical Center

in the social work department.

Why do people put this stuff on the internet? Their entire staff directory is out there in a word document, easily googlable, and clearly marked "FOR INTERNAL USE ONLY -- NOT TO BE SHARED WITH NON UIC STAFF"

idiots.

[crispini]

38. Hey, here's a Lucy Ramierez in Houston Texas

She left some kind of comment in Spanish on a blog or feedback form or something.

http://www.mailxmail.com/curso/empresa/decisiones/opiniones

Anyone speak Spanish?
Como tomar decisiones
Muy buen curso, y estoy muy agradecida que ofrescan este tipo de curso, me ha servido en gran manera, exelente. Gracias, Lucy Ramirez( Houston, Texas)

[crispini]

39. A google of "Lucy Ramirez" Houston

gets you two entries, with addresses and phone numbers.

Wonder if they've got a zillion journalists calling them now....

So, how do we cross reference with the other guy?

[Tafiti]

61. Nothing here with the Spanish translation, which is roughly...

...How to make decisions
Very good course, and I am very that they offer this type of course, it served me very well, excellent. Thank you, Lucy Ramirez.
Probably feedback on some college or correspondence course.

[kikiek]

16. I have to hit the road I would love to do that today. Good luck and

I hope you find something. It would be a real coup to be able to prove once and for all Rove's dirty politics.

[wickywom]

23. I do quite a bit of poking around

in the conservative Christian sub culture...its a sick hobby.. but entertaining..
I've noticed that a lot of the same people cover the whole religious political spectrum by changing their names in articles especially with initials -- I guess to prevent easy Googleing- or to make it seem like there are more of them
Who knows?

[Justice]

3. Maybe Burkett Needs to Be Shown a Picture of Armondo and Raymond

or maybe a lineup.....



Me thinks that if this story is true that republicans won't want an investigation of CBS and the memos for fear it may lead to rove.

I just sent your email to CBS News.

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Here's another piece of the puzzle - STONE: FROM BAKER TO CHENEY

STONE: FROM BAKER TO CHENEY (back to Rove again)

Despite Stone's sordid past, former secretary of state James Baker, who was coordinating the 2000 Bush recount operation in Florida, tapped him to run its street operations. Stone has been credited in television and book accounts with putting together the mixed mob of Cuban and congressional-aide protesters who prevented the count in Miami?universally seen as the turning point in the battle that made Bush president. Out of sight in both a Winnebago and the building across the street, Stone ordered the shutdown. "I said, yes, break the door down," Stone told the Voice. "It was only when the Democratic commissioners removed the ballots that you had a near riot." Stone now says that "after" this Miami performance, he was "asked if I wanted to serve on the transition."

The Stone prospectus, which is titled "Indian Gaming Opportunities," contains a bio that features Baker's "recruiting" of him for the Florida recount and discloses that he "subsequently served on the Presidential Transition" for Interior. It even contends that Stone "was involved in selecting appointees for that department for the present administration." A brief introduction makes five references to Interior's role and twice as many to "federal" powers in Indian gaming, concluding, "We believe that based on our superior political contacts we could win all necessary approvals in a time between 8 and 16 months."

In fact, Stone was not among the 38 members of the formal Interior transition committee, consisting of prominent lawyers and members of conservative environmental groups. But that committee never met, according to members contacted by the Voice , responding instead to phone calls and e-mail from a small "working group" whose names were never released. Tom Sansonetti, who was tapped by Vice President Dick Cheney to lead the working group, told the Voice, "We built a network of advisers that helped us put together the transition briefing books, and Roger was one of those." Currently the assistant attorney general in the Justice Department overseeing Interior and several other departments, Sansonetti says he "reached out to Roger for his thoughts on Indian gaming." Calling Stone "very helpful," Sansonetti said he "may have had some names" to recommend for key posts.

Told that Stone had boasted to gaming associates that Cheney himself called after Miami-Dade to ask what Stone wanted, Sansonetti, the former Republican National Committeeman from Cheney's home state of Wyoming, said: "It would not surprise me if Cheney contacted him separately. I'm sure he knows Roger and knew that he would have a lot to contribute to the transition in general." Stone says he doesn't remember who called him: "I filled out a form with the areas in which I wanted to serve. I checked the box for Interior and served with about 40 other people." He says he's "met Cheney" but is not a friend of his.


http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0416/barrett.php

[progressivebydesign]

29. For what it's worth, more Baker/Stone stuff:

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/09/15_recount.html

This is from last year at Buzzflash. Lots of stuff about Stone, and in particular his contact with Baker's people for the "riot". I'm still digging.. thanks to all for giving us a possible husband name for Ramirez.

[HFishbine]

5. Update

Lucy Ramirez also had a son to one Ramon Gutierrez in 1945. I don't know if this is an alternate spelling of the 1948 father "Raymond" but he's a Gutierrez. (http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/tx/midland/vitals/births/1945/midlab45.txt)

[rocktivity]

7. Be still, my heart...

If this COULD be traced back the Bush camp, he'll look like slime for stooping so low, Kerry will look honorable for keeping his hands off, Rather could get off the hook by claiming he'd just pretended he'd screwed up in order to flush out the real culprits, and I'd look like a genius because that was my original theory!

:headbang:
rocknation

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. This Stone story has everything

Sex, maybe Drugs and Rock & Roll.

Stone is also connected to the Cuban Mafia in Miami, which is directly connected to Jeb.

Jim Baker called Stone to stage the MIAMI RIOT. Stone was outside conducting the operation from his cell phone.

[seabeyond]

25. a bunch of f*in males using intimidation of violence

to f*in get their way, pisses me off so. and people arent bothered. i am. being female, i see it easily adn resent the hell out of it

[HFishbine]

26. We're not all bad

There are some pretty smarmy republican women too.

[maryallen]

33. I bet Al Gore would be interested ...

in seeing Stone gets what he deserves.

What slime these people are!

Some 527 group should run that picture of the "Miami riot" -- with names and job descriptions of "rioters" prominently attached -- as a tv or newspaper ad and superimpose a picture of Stone directing the debacle from his cell phone.

[starroute]

41. Stone's wife is a Miami Cuban

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Feb04/Ireland0221.htm

Who is Roger Stone? A slash-and-burn Republican black-bag election tamperer and consultant whose mentor was the repulsive Roy Cohn — the redbaiting hatchet man for Senator Joe McCarthy. Stone first made news in the Nixon Watergate scandal, when it was revealed that the 19-year-old apprentice McCarthyite had infiltrated George McGovern’s 1972 presidential campaign as part of CREEP’s sabotage plan. A few other highlights of Stone’s career as the boastful black prince of Republican sleaze: Stone helped Ollie North raise money for the Nicaraguan contras, and was a close associate of the notorious Lee Atwater (the GOP hit man who created the race-baiting Willie Horton TV spots for Bush père’s 1988 presidential campaign).

The New Yorker’s Jeffrey Toobin — in his excellent book, Too Close To Call, about the 2000 Florida election — details how Stone was summoned by Bush recount chief James Baker to disrupt the vote counting (Stone and his Cuban wife, Nydia, organized a screaming mob of Miami Cubans outside the headquarters of the canvassing board — Stone directed the mob by walkie-talkie from across the street — and intimidated the board into ending the count).


http://www.democracynow.org/print.pl?sid=04/02/04/1656216

Stone's wife is Cuban. Stone is very involved in Cuban politics in Miami, very right-wing Cuban politics in Miami. That's why he was so instrumental in putting together the operation in Miami.

[ClassWarrior]

12. .

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. Here's another puzzle piece - Jeb and the 2000 election

GOP Front Group Exposed

During the 2000 presidential recount battle in Florida, a group called Committee to Take Back Our Judiciary spent $150,000 attacking three pro-Democratic state Supreme Court justices who they felt threatened George W. Bush's hopes for victory. The group was a front for Bush donors trying to ensure his victory in Florida, in yet another example of Republican chicanery in the 2000 election. The Florida Elections Commission announced July 2003 that it will consider a $450,000 fine against the committee's chairwoman, Republican Mary McCarty, a Palm Beach County commissioner. The Florida Elections Commission concluded that McCarty violated several state election laws, including accepting contributions exceeding the $500 state limit and filing an inaccurate disclosure report. GOP political consultant Roger Stone persuaded McCarty to head the committee and that he supplied $150,000 from undisclosed sources.

http://www.literalpolitics.com/Florida/corruptionrev.htm

[progressivebydesign]

30. I linked a Buzzflash article about that above.. but GET THIS:

Stone runs many of his operations through a GRAPHICS company owned by his ex-wife, Ann Stone. Graphics.. as in documents and typesetting and things.. hmmmmm....

[starroute]

43. More about Ann Stone from that Buzzflash article

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/09/15_recount.html

But what Stone did not explain -- and still has not to this day -- is who instructed him to create the committee and who donated the $150,000. According to press reports, committee campaign records listed the $150,000 as a "loan" from Creative Marketing in Alexandria, Va., which doesn’t exist, though it does share the same mailing address as the Stone Group, a fundraising and marketing firm run by Republican activist Ann Stone, Roger’s ex-wife.

Stranger still, according to the Broward Daily Business Review reporter Dan Christensen, state Administrative Law Judge Harry L. Hooper, determined that "Stone ‘or his organization’ actually paid the $150,000 not to Creative Marketing but to a Virginia company called Unique Graphics and Design, which, according to Virginia state corporate records, had as its principals Ann Stone and Lora Lynn Jones. The committee subsequently paid Unique Graphics an additional $50,000 in May 2001 for purposes that remain unclear."

"Neither Hooper nor the FEC determined why the committee listed Creative Marketing rather than Unique Graphics as the recipient of the payments," Christensen wrote July 9.

"In another anomaly, a Daily Business Review examination of Virginia state corporate records found that Unique Graphics was not a legal entity when the two payments of $150,000 and $50,000 were made and received. The company's charter was terminated in 1994, and the firm was purged from the state's records in 1999. And despite state records showing that Ann Stone was a principal of Unique Graphics, Jones said she was the sole owner and employee. She also said, however, that she was a longtime employee of the Stone Group," reported Christensen.

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. Unique Graphics & Design

A company that gets $150,000 contracts but has only one employee? You can't do that kind of work, with one employee. I know because I'm in the graphics business.

[ClassWarrior]

17. .

[ClassWarrior]

18. .

[crispini]

20. kick

[AngryAmish]

19. Maybe you can find Sarah Connor next!

[HFishbine]

21. Before or after

she gives brith to John?

[AngryAmish]

22. Before

Oh, ignore the first two. Just a word to the wise.

[sonias]

24. kick

Fascinating work.

Sonia

[lanparty]

27. Burkett's credibility is now shot to hell ...

He is off the table. We cannot believe his new story. The old story was a fake.

If he's now telling the truth, it's a real shame.

But is IS quite amazing how the media SUCCESSFULLY identified Burkett as the source of these documents with little more than speculation. Of all the people in the world who hate Bush, they correctly surmized that it would be Burkett.

I think the conclusion is obvious now. The documents came from Karl Rove in attempt to pre-emptively discredit the information IN those documents by discrediting his own bogus source. I don't think he counted on the secretary though.

Hopefully, Dan Rather will follow up and do a story on this intrigue.

[GeorgeBushytail]

42. Rather should be HIGHLY motivated to follow this story

[myrna minx]

28. Kick.

This is important. :kick:

[progressivebydesign]

31. Kicking for the West Coast Duers...

We need some input on this... brain trust!!!

[ClassWarrior]

32. I second that kick.

:kick: 23.

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. Hope you don't mind if I dump the bits and pieces that I find here?

Here's an interesting one Stone's was on CNN

Roger Stone and Peter Fenn Discuss the Florida Recount

Aired November 18, 2000

ROGER STONE , REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think that the vice president's kind of changed his rap a little bit. First he's for the will of the people, then he's for the rule of the law when the court rules for him. And then when the court rules against him, say temporarily, then he's for the will of the people. This is a floating crap game in which both candidates have to kind of change their posturing slightly.

<snip>

STONE: I think this could drag on for quite some time. First of all, I don't think that the process can allow the wholesale manufacturing of enough votes for the vice president to, in essence, steal this election. Now, there's a number of different things that could happen. I suspect that the vice president will win in the Florida state supreme court, one of the most liberal, activist and nine-zip Democratic courts in the country.

The federal courts have not said they won't hear this. They have -- they have left the door open to hear an equal protection question. There's also the question whether the Florida legislature, in the hands of the Republicans, can overrule the supreme court in electing -- and knock out the election of electors. There's a number of avenues here. No one knows how this is going to come out. But this crown is going to be very tarnished when somebody gets it.

<snip>

STONE: Well, clearly, the -- Governor Bush is attempting to look presidential. If you remember some of the wire photos immediately after the election, they had a tableau set up like an Oval Office meeting, with all the transition figures sitting around. Clearly, he's trying to stay above the battle here, divorced from his operatives on the ground from Florida, looking somewhat presidential, not being involved in the daily nitty-gritty. The vice president, I think, has been a bit more involved in the day-to-day, but I think that reflects his personality. Both candidates here try to project a presidential image.


http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0011/18/smn.18.html

[Gman]

40. There may be over 1,000 Armando Gutierrez Jr's and

maybe half as many Lucy Ramirez' in this part of the country. If I think about it, I'm sure I know at least one Armando Gutierrez.

[Judi Lynn]

52. Do you remember the Armando Gutierrez who came out early a.m.,in Miami

and told the crowd waiting outside the Lázaro Gonzalez house that they had secured a video of Elián Gonzalez telling his father he wanted to stay with his drunken great uncle in Miami, and that he didn't want to go back and live with his dad in Cuba? (They had been
taping the kid for HOURS and HOURS sitting on his bed, until well after midnight, being coached, as it was obvious, since he was looking at someone to his left foreground when he repeated lines they had given him to speak as a message to his dad.)

I was reading the Elián Gonzalez message board at CNN then, and it had a lot of people posting who were from Miami, with a good history of Miami politics. Armando Gutierrez was a name familiar to all of them. He's big there.

Did a quick search and found two,first in association with the Elián sideshow, and the next a simply quick look at him. I just grabbed these two without looking in depth:

Miami Mayor Alex Penelas led the Cuban American revolt against the Justice Department last spring. Elections supervisor David Leahy of the Miami-Dade Canvassing Board, who voted to stop the recount, works for Mr. Penelas.

The Canvassing Board's two other members, Lawrence King and Myriam Lehr, who joined in the vote, are both elected county judges who must be sensitive to the opinions of their Cuban American electorate.

Both judges relied on Armando Gutierrez, a political consultant. Gutierrez, who was hired to run Judge King's campaign, became notorious as the pro bono spokesman for the Miami family of Elian Gonzales. (As a result, King's father -- federal judge James L. King -- recused himself from hearing the Elian Gonzales case.)
(snip/...)

http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/6.24/001204-miamis.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One particular faction of influential Beach figures coalesced in the past two months and has held a series of meetings to decide which candidates should benefit from the Beach's burgeoning Hispanic electorate. The group, assembled by long-time political campaign consultant Armando Gutierrez, decided to back Commissioner David Pearlson for mayor, and anointed Simon Cruz -- a genial, well-educated, but relatively unknown Cuban-American real estate banker -- as its candidate of choice for the two-year commission seat Pearlson would vacate.

But one participant in the meetings has broken ranks: Matti Bower, a Havana-born veteran Beach civic activist who made a spirited but unsuccessful run for the city commission two years ago. Instead of abiding by the consensus of Gutierrez's informal group and running for one of the three other commission seats up for grabs, Bower instead entered the race against Cruz, who had been a volunteer in her earlier bid for the city commission.

While some people, outgoing Mayor Seymour Gelber for one, put a positive spin on the rift between Bower and Gutierrez -- arguing that it's proof no one group can control Hispanic politics -- others are quick to point out that Gutierrez and his cohorts are gamely trying to do exactly that: take control of Hispanic political affairs in Miami Beach, and eventually, inevitably, of all Miami Beach politics. "I got involved so nobody would be able to walk around and say, 'I control the Hispanic vote on Miami Beach,'" says activist attorney Victor Diaz. "That's exploiting the people, treating them like sheep who can be led to the slaughter."

Gutierrez denies that the meetings he helped organize are evidence of any sort of backroom political chicanery. "It wasn't meant to be a secret cult or anything," he offers. "It was just a group of Hispanics discussing how not to divide the community. They didn't want it to be a divisive election, with Hispanics going against another group."
(snip/...)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/1997-08-14/metro3.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Found another odd angle. Do you remember that a judge in Miami gave a favorable judgement the Cuban "exile" community liked, in the early stages of the legal free-for-all? It was learned later that she was connected to Armando Gutierrez, the family "spokesman," and it kicked up a real dust storm, for a while, as it was viewed as VERY irregular by people outside their community.

Miami-Dade Circuit Court Judge Rosa Rodriguez employed Armando Gutierrez, the main spokesman for Elian's relatives--and the company of Gutierrez's wife--during her 1998 campaign, a relationship she failed to disclose before adjudicating the case.
(snip)

In Miami, Armando Gutierrez said in an interview yesterday evening with local television station WSVN that he had been a paid political consultant for Rodriguez, a former public defender and private litigator elected to the bench in 1998. But he said he had not spoken to her since shortly after that election. "She paid me like everybody else," he said. "The campaign was over and the relationship was over."

Gutierrez has been a close consultant to the family and has been a caretaker of Elian, himself, at times. He is not getting paid for the work.

According to state campaign finance records, Gutierrez & Associates received at least $4,000 from the campaign and Creative Ideas Inc., his wife, Maritza Gutierrez's advertising firm, listed at the same address, was paid more than $50,000.

Rodriguez issued a statement last night saying "there is no obligation for a judge to disclose" a past campaign relationship when the persons involved are not part of a legal team in the judge's courtroom.

Yet Tony Alfieri, director of the University of Miami Law School Center for Ethics and Public Service, said that Rodriguez should have withdrawn from the case. At the very least, he said, she should have disclosed the relationship, should have appointed a legal representative for Elian's father Juan Miguel Gonzalez--listed as the respondent in the custody petition filed by great-uncle Lazaro Gonzalez--and appointed an independent party to represent Elian.
(snip)

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y00/jan00/12e14.htm

[HFishbine]

63. Now this is really weird

Let me prefeace this observation by saying I acknolwedge the posts that point out that we haven't really connected any dots yet. One might even say we are grasping at straws. Perhaps. None-the-less, here is something odd.

Apparently the Kerry campaign recently hired Gutierrez & Associates (1). This little factoid doesn't prove anything, but it does raise more questions. Why would the Kerry campaign hire a man who helped stop the Dade County vote counting? Were they aware of his history? And, putting on an extra layer of tinfoil, could Gutierrez have used his access to the campaign to facilitate a set-up?

1) http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000526984

[deckerd]

45. Let me see if I understand this

Burkett BURNED the originals ?!? When did he reveal this -- in the interview with CBS? (I missed it, and Tom Brokaw's summary was a misleading hit piece -- worse, every libral person I know believed it, said "Burkett admits to misleading CBS" that proves they were fake -- I ask them "Did NBC tell you what he lied to them ABOUT? -- they say "It doesn't matter; the documents being fake, right?")

Right now CBS has no incentive to pursue this because based on Monday's performance, Dan Rather has been put on ice by his executives.

He's taking one for the team to prevent a ratings meltdown.

And the Dems agree because they're afraid the source might be Heldt.

And 90% of Americans agree because, thanks to Rather's shoddy reporting and shoddy follow-up, they are absolutely convinced that Burkett HIMSELF forged the documents on MS Word. That includes most rank and file liberals. The few Dem activists in a position to push CBS on the "who forged it" angle WON'T because they are afraid it might be Heldt. And the originals that posess PROOF of forgery and/or veracity (i.e. the key to the story) were BURNED by this icompetent asshole Burkett,
whose whistleblower skills make the peripatetically feckless efforts here on DU look like Matlock. SO NO REASON TO TAKE THE STORY FURTHER, RIGHT?

Please tell me how you guys intend to connect the dots on this, what are the mechanics involved in getting to the source of who produced these documents and who told Burkett to burn the originals (presumably because he knew they were fakes)??

Stop going off track telling us about Stone. I have NO CLUE why that is relevant because you need PROOF that this Lucy Ramirez called Burkett and PROOF that she is related to the Miami mob.

Someone needs to produce that or else quit wasting everyone's time asking the media to "look into that guy Stone" on a lazy hunch.

Ask Walt if he's interested in pursuing this.

Liberal bloggers will have to take the lead on this if they think there is a connection here. Rely on CBS to break this story and their executives will attempt to tie Burkett to the Kerry campaign in an effort to make nice with the Bushes.

Besides, you may not like what you find out. Right now only the RW media has an interest in pressing the matter with the unstable Burkett.

When did Burkett reveal his source was "Lucy Ramirez", anyhow?

Lucy Ramirez is like "Jane Doe" in Spanish, BTW.

[crispini]

46. I believe he did so in the Rather interview

although I'm not sure.

[juajen]

50. No, it was in an interview with USA Today.

Who is Heldt? What have I missed?

[deckerd]

53. A guy the Dem rumor-mill

were afraid might have fed the memos to Burkett. AIUI, nobody really knows what his alliegances were to the story, probably money. Sort of the equivalent to Stone on the dem side, I think...

But the connection to Stone is much, much stronger.

Both Heldt and Stone are loose cannon, dirty trickster. Now it turns out we know which of the two did it. If we're lucky, GOP will come out with that line today or tomorrow.

In any event, let the media lead with this story. DNC is obviously comfortable alleging stone, that suggests that they have no worries a Dem might be involved; nor that anyone other than Rove might possess originals of the disputed memos.

If they drop it, DNC should privately investigate the phone trail between Burkett and Stone. If nothing turns up, fuhgeddaboudit. Otherwise, you have one more card to potentially play in late October.

[vetwife]

48. self delete

[jefferson_dem]

49. Which memos? The ones that are "in question" and used by CBS?

[vetwife]

51. self delete

[dennis00]

54. guiterrez

If you want to go way back in Texas history, the CIA had a file on GUTIERREZ R.C. concerning the Keneddy assassination.
CIA record number: 104-10075-10181
agency file number: 80TO1357A
From: JMWAVE

Might not, prolly not, be the same Guiterrez, but maybe it is. I couldn't find anyway to access the file.

[DoYouEverWonder]

59. Hey, a lead is a lead

and should be followed because you never know where they might end up.

BTW: Welcome to DU :hi:

[dennis00]

60. welcome to DU

ThankYou. Glad to be here. CHE

[liberal N proud]

55. Do you mean they can't come up with new operatives?

These are the same people that worked scams for them in 2000?

[TheWebHead]

56. I think before anyone wastes any time tracking down "Lucy Ramirez"

Burkett should take a polygraph test... And I think it's telling that he hasn't offered to take one yet.

[saracat]

57. Isn't Armando ,Raymond in Spanish? Could Lucy and Armando be married?

[Tafiti]

62. Yes, I believe you're right.