They're now saying Kerry "Betrayed His Country"

[Night Gal]

Ohmygawd!

I just saw the latest Swift Boat ad.

I had heard something about JK going to Paris back then, but this claim seems outrageous!

They also mention Jane Fonda and how she apologized, but Kerry didn't.

Here's a link:
http://swift3.he.net/~swift3/friends.wmv

[Racenut20]

1. I don't even look at that crap.

[ps1074]

2. Aiding the enemy, again

Baltimore sun

by Cal tomas

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has achieved something that may be unique in the history of our country. He has managed to oppose two wars while they are being fought, undermine the objective of the nation and give aid and comfort to those who are killing American soldiers and kidnapping American civilians.

<snip>

Sound bites from Mr. Kerry's NYU speech could be played in certain mosques to convince the insurgents and other Muslim extremists that all they have to do is step up the killing between now and the U.S. election and victory for them is assured. They have seen America cut and run before. Mr. Kerry's address may again provide aid and comfort to America's latest enemy.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.thomas22sep22,1,5782406.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines

[Minimus]

27. this op ed is crap - imho

[JimmyJazz]

40. Just as a slight aside: Does anyone out there see a

connection between Bush saying in 2000 at every opportunity, "our military is stretched thin, our military is weak, etc." and the fact that our country was attacked less than a year later. Does Bush think only Americans heard those words? I am sooooo sick of the media in this country. Don't they EVER get dizzy from all that spinning?

[BootinUp]

3. Bob Kerrey said

Fuck those guys.

IIRC.

[Julien Sorel]

4. No one cares any more.

The Dems are on the offensive now, and it's an issues-based attack. That character assassination stuff has run its course. It's just some bitter men who traded their honor for a shot at revenge, jabbering away among themselves in a very small corner of the election.

[girl gone mad]

5. Who cares? n/t

[markus]

6. Bush has betrayed his country to the Saudis

That's the ad I want to hear.

[mmonk]

19. I would love to see someone

come up with that ad.

[blondeatlast]

24. Yup. nt

[Cha]

38. Yes, bush has betrayed our Country!

To the saudis and to their lust for Oil and the pnc wannabe movement across the World.

We have a traitor out there on the campaign trail right now using our tax money to swill his Lies on the great brainwashed.

[LynnTheDem]

7. Dissent IS patriotism.

Unless you live in a fascist state. Officially, America is still a free country where dissent = patriotism.

Kerry dissented.

Kerry is patriotic.

Those who try to silence dissent, those who try to paint dissent as equal to treason, THEY are the enemies of freedom and democracy.

Period.

And the Balitmore Sun, as always, is just a far rightwingnut piece of trash that makes the National Enquirer look like tough-hitting investigative journalism.

[bowens43]

8. blah blah blah......

They have been spouting this crap since 1971. Who cares?

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Umm, Fonda's and Kerry's actions were TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!

John Kerry has no need to apologize. Period. Assholes!:mad:

[Killarney]

10. When Kerry was in Paris on his honeymoon (first marriage)

he met with a Vietnamese operative to try to negotiate the release of American POW's.

That bastard.

Always trying to save American lives.

Fucker.

[salvorhardin]

11. This has been in the meme machine

for a couple weeks now. I've heard Michael Savage going on about this for a couple of weeks. Also Jimmy Carter is a communist, and John Kerry is another Jimmy Carter so if you don't want the country run by communists, then don't vote for John Kerry.

[Lovecrafty]

12. Bush betrayed YOU!!!

[deutsey]

13. Apologize for what?

Trying to stop an insane, futile, morally bankrupt war?

Bush should be apologizing for starting an insane, futile, morally bankrupt war, but don't hold your breath for that.

I love the way they continue taking Kerry's testimony (based on what honorably discharged Vietnam veterans told him) out of context.

Are people really gullible enough to fall for this crap?

Unfortunately, it seems some are.

[59millionmorons]

14. These guy's are so last month

Does anyone even care about them anymore after they have been so discredited.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. The POW/MIA loons should thank Kerry for this

geez, the guy was only trying to get prisoners out- NOT betray his country.

[LittleClarkie]

48. Geez -- God love him for that

All he has to do to kill this puppy if he needs to is to simply say just that. It would work for me, and I already love the guy.

And I don't understand why people don't realize that by opening up relations with Vietnam, we are more effectively able to look for POWs and their remains. In fact I remember at least one story where people from both sides were pointing out where they thought remains might be. Seemed positive to me. I wish I could find that article. I think something like 800 remains have been found for both sides.

I wish the war could be over for some of these people. And I think it's especially evil that O'Neill and Rove are feeding into this backlog of anger for politicial gain. Bastards. These people need healing not to have their anger fueled.

I also wish people would remember that the Cold War is over. But then I think that's one of the reasons WE get called Socialists. The haters need someone new to hate.

[Stephanie]

16. So Bush promoters can lie with complete impunity

But any evidence that supports Kerry has to have a chain of provenance. They can say whatever they want with no proof whatsoever. We can say something that's indisputably true, but every single claim must be verifiable or the whole thing is out the window.

[kokomo]

17. The National Archives back up Kerry's Vietnam charges of atrocities.....

The Village Voice had an article in yesterday's issue about unclassified documents in the National Archive containing "hundreds of files of official U.S. military investigations of such atrocities committed by American soldiers...The exact number of investigated allegations of atrocities is unknown, as is the number of such barbaric incidents that occurred but weren't investigated. Some war crimes, like the Tiger Force atrocities exposed last year by The Toledo Blade, have only come to light decades later. Others never will. But there are plentiful records to back up Kerry's 1971 testimony point by point."

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0438/turse.php

[livinginphotographs]

18. You're right.

And it's also funny how they take what amounted to one paragraph of a long long long testimony to Congress about how the govt has abandoned the veterans who returned from Vietnam, and make it the central point of what he said.

Abandoning veterans....hmmmm, kind of sounds familiar.

Welcome to DU by the way.

[LittleClarkie]

52. A Kerry quote in a Vietnam history book I have

has him describing coming home on the plane, having one of the nightmares about Vietnam that he still has on occasion, where he's shouting out "Down! Get down!" to his men, waking up and having the passengers on the plane move and look away from him as if he has some kind of "losing the war" disease. He said he remembered thinking that there must be something wrong with him.

That's why I always ask if people have read the WHOLE testimony. The fact that rank and file veterans were being blamed for a war that was the fault of the administration and the brass was what he was testifying to, at least in part.

And we've seen it now, haven't we. The way Rumsfeld keeps trying to pretend that the abuses at Abu Ghraib aren't the result o the atmosphere he helped to foster. The way the troops were sent without equipment. The fact that the VA's funding keeps getting cut and that hospitals and doctors and nurses will be cut if we don't get Bush out.

Kerry would never let such things happen if they would mean a hardship to a vet. He loves those guys. The best friend they never knew they had.

He may have to have a Jane Fonda style meeting with some veterans.

And even then, many vets still haven't accepted her apology. What gets me is listening to someone who wasn't even in Vietnam (though a veteran) tell me how he'll never forgive Kerry.

When I try to defend Kerry, my friend just says "You're not a vet." No, but I'm the daughter of a vet, the sister of two vets, and the sister in law of still another. But it really takes a "Veteran for Kerry" to fight such these people's allegations effectively.

[Merlin]

DO NOT DISCOUNT THE IMPACT OF THESE COMMERCIALS!

That's the mistake JK already made, REMEMBER?

I just go bonkers when I read some of these posts saying these spots are "so yesterday." Damn it, these have real impact. We have GOT to do something about it.

Some of us are planning a law suit to counter the publicity these swift liars are getting. If you're willing to help--especially if your a vet--please pm me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. Bush betrayed his country by not even showing up.

There.

[Merlin]

25. That's not the freaking point!

The point is that these lying spots are hurting Kerry support among dimwitted voters who can't think their way out of a paper bag. And there are PLENTY of them.

[Julien Sorel]

30. What's a law suit going to do except focus

attention on a discredited group of people?

The Kerry campaign is getting a great deal of traction from issues-based attacks. Stopping that to pay attention to these losers now has no upside. It's exactly what they hope for, in fact. Surrendering the initiative is a sucker's play. The media gave these vermin far more than their 15 minutes; the Kerry campaign damn well has no business giving them more.

It pisses me off, in fact, to see some people here who lived through August ready to make the exact same mistakes again: handwringing, the demands that Kerry "dooooooooo sooooommmmethingggggggg," fretting, and so on. This is the sort of behavior that draws attention to these people, and attention is what they need.

Challengers win by relentlessly attacking. They do not win by defending themselves, or the ubiquitous, but stupid, phrase so often bandied about by the witless here, "fighting back." Winners fight. They press forward, focusing on their opponent's weaknesses. Losers defend themselves and have to "fight back," because they surrendered the initiative in the first place.

Kerry was right in not lending publicity to these dishonest attacks the first time around, but since they took off and used up their capital, he's even more right to let them blow in the wind now. He has a campaign that's about the now, not the 35 years ago.

[Merlin]

47. First of all...

I'm not saying KERRY should do something, or his campaign. I'm saying WE should

Secondly, the problem in August was precisely that the ads run by this VERY SAME GROUP stopped Kerry cold and reversed his momentum. That's because they went unanswered.

If we don't want to make the same mistake that was made before, we have got to stop pretending these ads don't have any effect.

Sure, they don't influence people with half a brain. But this election is in the hands of the UNDECIDEDs, and anybody in that category can't think their way out of a paper bag. That means they're extremely vulnerable to this kind of crap.

Keep out of it if you don't want to participate. But I'm going to try to do something about it.

[Julien Sorel]

51. A lawsuit focuses attention on these people whoever launches it.

That's what they want, much like a child who acts out.

Whatever Kerry did in August (and the veracity of these guys had already been dealt with by the media before August), I believe this would have taken off , except if Kerry had challenged them, he'd have been blamed for making a mountain out of a molehill. It was August, a lull after the Dem convention and before the Republican convention, Kerry wasn't running any ads, and the media needed to stir the pot. Enter these bottom feeders, and they had what they wanted.

Now, the election is heating up. The media don't need a stalking horse because people are paying attention, but by focusing attention on these bitter lemons you help stir up crap, which gets in the way of the message Kerry is being very effective delivering.

I doubt anything we do on this issue will matter one way or another, but it seems to me your energies would be better spent registering voters and the like, anyway.

Is someone from the Bush side responding to each and every Moveon ad? Then why must the Kerry side do so? They are picking their battles, and that's smart.

I still don't see what a lawsuit will do, anyway. The best you could get would be an injunction, and then the shit would really hit the fan over constitutional issues, claims of communistic censoring and the like, further muddying the water. When the water is clear, people can see Iraq, people can see the job losses, outsourcing, healthcare, and the fact that Bush has no plan for the future, while Kerry does. The muddier the water, the less informed people are, the more people are prone to let slogans do their thinking for them.

[Merlin]

53. You're missing the point entirely.

First, you're wrong about saying these guys are doing this to get attention. They are doing this in order to tear apart JK's credibility and image as a war hero.

Second, the point is not to pursue a lawsuit to its conclusion. The point is to LAUNCH a lawsuit and to impugn their credibility by publicizing the fact and the basis.

Third, I say again, consider who these things are aimed at. They are targeted to people who are easily influenced. Like it or not, those people are the battleground now. If nobody responds to these charges, they WILL be perceived as true. They are so serious that no person who believes them to be probably true could possibly vote for JK.

The days for lying back and taking it are over. The idea that voters are smart enough to see through these lies is bullshit. As Carville says, when a candidate does not even have the moxy to fight back when he is attacked, how the hell can he be expected to defend the country.

[Julien Sorel]

56. Of course these guys are doing it to get attention.

They need attention to have any impact. Their original ad run was pathetically small, a few commercials spread out over three states. It was the media who made it a big deal. These people would go apeshit at the thought of catching lightning in a bottle again.


How can a lawsuit impugn anyone's credibility of no one knows about it? And if someone hears about a lawsuit, then they will be hearing more about the ads. So a lawsuit has two potentially salient outcomes, neither desirable in my view:

1) By some miracle, a judge halts the ads. Like that's going to happen, even temporarily. Anyway, there would be an immediate furor over censorship, 1st Amendment rights, and campaign finance reform, sucking the air out of everything else -- muddying the waters. See my post above. This would also get the media playing the ads over and over and over again, as they debated the merits of the judge's decision, giving them much more air time than they would have otherwise received. It's the "banned in Boston" effect.

2) The lawsuit goes nowhere (probable), but gives the scumboat veterans more publicity. Obviously, not a good outcome. If a lawsuit gets any publicity at all, the media will be playing those ads. What kind of equal time do you think your side would get? Your lawsuit in boring legalese vs their commercial, being played over and over again on the talking head circuit. Who loses in the court of public opinion? John Kerry does.



Of course, as I said before, the actual probability is that a lawsuit does nothing either way except consume resources. But in the end, it's your time and money, and my opinion.

[deutsey]

31. Where is this ad being shown? What states?

Does anyone know?

If we can identify them, DU'ers in those states should do a letter-writing campaign to local papers setting the record straight.

[Night Gal]

61. and the mistake that Gray Davis made.

I tried PMing you about your suit, but alas I', too much a newbie to even send a damn PM.

Thoughts and intentions are with you in spirit though.

[Lefta Dissenter]

20. OhMyGOD

"I had heard something about JK going to Paris back then, but this claim seems outrageous!"

Kerry had an affair with Paris Hilton? Does Theresa know about this??? :wow:

Kerry = Tells the Truth even when it's difficult = Good for our Country
bush = Lying, posturing son of a bitch = Bad for our Country

Simple as that.

[Renew Deal]

22. Now that's what I call a negative ad.

:shrug:

[Dem_Loyalist]

23. I don't know how they get away with this

I'll bet they're even saying this is the same thing as the ads Moveon.org was running. Of course they're not, but thats what they'll use as an excuse. These people have no shame condemning a great man like JFK. The swift boat liars are the ones that should be tried for treason.

[Francine Frensky]

26. Nixon's old strategy: frame truth-tellers as Disloyal

EVERY whistle-blower chooses the truth over loyalty their organization.

Nixon knew this so he conspired to hurt people like Kerry by claiming they were disloyal to the United States.

Folks, if the question is truth vs. loyalty, even to your country, the right answer is always the truth. The truth will out eventually, and less damage is done the sooner it emerges.

The truth is that vietnam was a mistake. Period.

The dems simply need to keep mentioning Nixon in the same sentence as the swiftboaters!! Play the tapes on tv of Nixon and O'Neill discussing trashing Kerry.

Nixon's reputation will sink those swiftliars.

[johnnyrocket]

28. Swift boat idiots have been demoted to lying political hacks...

this is irrelevant.

[Minimus]

29. why give this crap any discussion - and provide a link?

whose side are you on?

[AspenRose]

42. There's a link in the first post

eom

[Minimus]

49. i wasn't clear in my post. i meant why provide a link to such an

awful piece. but I guess some people are interested in watching that kind of stuff to see what we're up against.

i just find all that swift boat stuff abhorrent.

[Night Gal]

58. Well excuuuuuuuuse me.....

But you'd have preferred I pointed out the latest bullshit ad and just gave you my opinion of what I saw, then the next person can give her/his opinion on my opinion, etc.....?

As for whose side I'm on, well being a free thinker I do not have any side except for the one I believe is correct. I know many on this site will be able to cast their votes in nanoseconds by choosing the "straight Democrat Ticket" option for the POTUS, any Senate seats, Reps, as well as State elections. I will do what I have done for every election since becoming eligible. I will choose the candidates and the issues (propositions) that I feel best represent MY views not a collective.

I do not see the world through such rose colored and partisan glasses.
If the CA Democratic Party had been able to actually take the blinders off, put aside the petty differences among themselves, and step up to the plate with an honest candidate, I wouldn't have Ahhhhhnold to call my gov.

They fucked up royally in the second term nomination, then dwarfed that incompetence by failing to take the recall seriously and now we're stuck with AHhhhhnold. They put up a horribly weak (and nearly as corrupt in his thinking as Davis) Lt. Governor (or Governor Light as I refer to him) and he got his ass smoked. Diane should be sitting in the Governors mansion right now, and I ain't to happy that she's not.

[Zorbet55]

32. What the dickens?

Those scumbags will say anything. Kerry went to Paris to see if he could expedite the release of our prisoners in N. Vietnam. The swifties are shitheads. Screw them. Flog them on their website. Send them a dead rat in the mail. They are dishonorable turncoats.:argh:

[Texas_Dem]

33. They have been saying that for months

and they also think Iraq is going swimmingly well, the economy is terrific, jobs are plentiful and the rest of the world loves us. And they also want to sell us some beach front property in Arizona.

[cleangreencar]

34. We've got our own sucker punch ready!

All Kerry has to do is sign form 180! He's got nothing to hide. Those jerks are always crying about the "full" record. I say give it to them! I bet they shut the hell up when it comes to light that Kerry really is a hero. Anyone know someone on the inside? Lets get a petition going or something to show Kerry we back him up and he should sign 180. Pull the rug out from under the bastards!

[girl gone mad]

35. Kerry has already released all of his relevant documents,

and the Navy just said that he earned all of his medals, without question.

The only information Kerry has not released is his medical information, and he should be allowed to keep that private.

[demokatgurrl]

36. and he should stop releasing or answering anything. n/t

[cleangreencar]

37. But that sounds like stonewalling

We need to be so open and transparent so as to be above question. I don't believe there's anything to hide. Aren't his med records, except for his time in the service, separate from his military records. It would really fuck with them to get their way and then find nothing. It's like Kung Fu. When someones pushing you really hard and you're pushing back, it's a fight. If you suddenly let them have their way and stop pushing back, they'll fall on their face!

[Sparkly]

43. Absolutely NOT

All relevant records have been released by Kerry, but not by the Chimp. Official records show that Kerry was a war hero; official records show that Chimp was a spoiled rich boy who didn't fulfill his requirements.

That is why the RNC attacks Kerry's official Navy records, and hides Chimp's official records.

Medical records of a healthy candidate should be private.

[Gregorian]

39. 3,000,000 dead. Let Bush have the idiot vote. We already knew that.

He gets the fools, idiots, greedy unconscious pig vote.

I wonder if Bush has actually read The Constitution.

[Lady_Liberty]

41. Kerry has NEVER

betrayed us!!!

[jackstraw45]

44. IGNORING this CRAP

Why do this to our eyes?

PLEASE don't email this around. IGNORE IT!

[Minimus]

50. amen

[Night Gal]

59. even if you close your eyes....

it's not going away.

Isn't it better to know wht your enemy is thinking, is saying, and is doing, in order to better wage the battle?

If I'm really out of line with that post, then a sincere apology to those who feel offended. However, please consider the bitter lessons us Left Coasters are still smarting from. The failure of the Party and it's Leaders to take seriously the recall election in CA had horrendous consequences and I'd rather not feel blindsided again in November.

[bobbyboucher]

45. Would you mind taking your transparent ass

back to the nameless monkey empire. Your boy Georgie the AWOL punk-ass handjob is going down.

So you say Kerry was trying to end the Viet Nam war while your boy was snorting coke and giving cunni to Mexican hookers? Oooh, I'm gonna vote for Bush.

[Joanne98]

46. I saw it. here's some good comebacks for that ad.

You can say to bush supporters.....
"They're doing the same thing with Kerry and Fonda that they did with Osama and Saddam. putting them in the same sentence so you think they have something to do with each other when they don't." It gives you an opening to expose their METHODS of deceit. Example:
Bush kept saying, "Never forget 9/11. Saddam Hussein is an evil man". conclusion: SH attacked us on 9/11.
"Picture of John Kerry....picture of Jane Fonda" conclusion: Friends.
TRUTH: Neither is true. this gives you the opportunity to switch to
"Why does Bush keep saying SH attacked us on 9/11?" "Where's the WMD?"
This will shut them up......

[tom_paine]

54. Spoken like True Betrayers of the Country

Lick the boots of your King some more, SwiftLiars!

You'll find the taste of freedom somewhere on those dirty soles, you bastards!

[jacksonian]

55. you can't use this stuff in a debate

hard to accuse people of treason to their face and not have it backfire.

[Texas_Dem]

57. No one believes them anymore

They have become more and more outrageous that people who may have tended to believe them before are discounting them. Those who still believe are living in scrubs' world of fantasy spin.

[Guaranteed]

60. I thought this was coming...mentioned it last night.

It's all they've got left to attack him with- his protesting Vietnam.

[fishface]

62. Freetard alert

nt

[MagickMuffin]

63. And bushit

betrayed our soldiers with his bogus war in Iraq!