Woody Allen Joins Anti-Bush Bandwagon

[gauguin57]

http://www.imdb.com/news/wenn/#1

Actor/director Woody Allen blasted US president George W Bush when he collected his lifetime achievement award at Spain's San Sebastian film festival on Friday. Allen - who is currently shooting an untitled movie in London - insisted it would be "tragic" if Bush was re-elected in November. He says, "If you observe (Bush), it's quite amusing. If you listen to him as he speaks, if you follow him closely, it would provide you a great many laughs. But it's the perfect example of islands of comedy, comic moments against a very, very tragic background." Allen's criticism comes after directors Jonathan Demme and Wim Wenders condemned the state of American politics at the Venice Film Festival earlier this month.

My future PhD dissertation: "George W. Bush and the Islands of Comedy"

[CatWoman]

1. Fuck Woody Allen

the perverted bastard.

[Connie_Corleone]

2. That's what I was about to post.

Woody Allen can go crawl back under that rock he came up from! Kerry doesn't need his help.

[el_gato]

7. I guess you know him personally and are in a position to judge?

So just how close were you to him and his family?
Did you work for him or something?

[Connie_Corleone]

12. He had sex with his daughter and married her.

I don't have to know him personally to know that he's a sick, perverted ****.

[el_gato]

16. I don't give a rats ass about his personal life

But then I don't waste my time with sensational tabloid trash.

[Connie_Corleone]

20. Good for you.

Pat yourself on the back and take a bow. :eyes:

[el_gato]

23. I wasn't interested in Clinton's penis either.

I guess that makes me a bad person.

[Connie_Corleone]

25. I made no judgement about you.

You're the one calling yourself a bad person. I could care less what you do or think.

[el_gato]

26. Maybe you can do some Clinton bashing too!

After all, you seem to be an expert on the personal lives of others.

[Connie_Corleone]

29. Did Clinton sleep with his daughter?

Go ahead and defend Allen. I DON'T CARE! I have a right to my opinion just like you do.

[el_gato]

38. The personal lives of people I do not know are not my concern.

I'm not defending Woody Allen so much as I am pointing out that you seem to be an expert on the personal lives of people you don't even know.

I just don't care to get all worked up full of hate over the
details of someone's personal life. It does not involve me
and I do not wish to get involved in the lives of people
that have absolutely no relation to me or my life. I have
better things to do.

He bashed bush and I'm glad he did.

It seems his family life somehow deeply impacted you.

[hiphopnation]

41. Amen

el_gato.

On another note, I'm not defending the actions of the man but I will stand up time and time again and defend his no less than BRILLIANT film-making career. The man has had a knack for taking aspects of the human experience and transmitting them to film in most profound and hilarious ways. Perverted? Yes. But ain't now way I'm throwing the perverbial baby out with the bathwater on this.

That said, not sure what his bashing Bush will do for Kerry. Probably will do more harm than good, but, oh well.

[Carla in Ca]

111. I second that!

Allen has made some brilliant movies that will always be remembered. As for his personal life, perhaps, for some, it was bad enough that he fell in love with Mia Farrow's ADOPTED daughter but so be it. That is none of my business.

Annie Hall
Manhattan
Radio Days
Crimes & Misdemeanors

Think about the great one liners...

People should stay together forever, like pigeons and Catholics.

Every time he listens to a Wagner Opera, he feels the need to invade Poland.

I gladly accept his endorsement for my candidate.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiphopnation]

45. pfft!

pot meet kettle...

[Connie_Corleone]

46. Back to you!

Pot meet kettle my ass! Where have I criticized the poster's opinion about Woody Allen?

[hiphopnation]

48. well this is consctructive!

:eyes:

[Connie_Corleone]

50. I don't know what your post is referring to.

I never said anything about the poster's opinion about Woody Allen. But the poster keeps criticizing my opinion. So I don't know what you mean about Pot meeting Kettle.


Oh, I almost forgot this: :eyes:

[IIgnoreNobody]

67. What's so objectionable about someone disagreeing with your opinion?

I don't get it. :shrug:

[Connie_Corleone]

69. Nothing.

There's a difference between disagreeing and criticizing. The poster who kept replying to my posts was criticizing me because I actually had an opinion about Woody Allen's sick love life.

If you notice, there have been other posters on here who disagreed and I did not respond to them because they weren't criticizing others who thought differently.

[IIgnoreNobody]

74. What is so objectionable about someone criticizing your opinion?

This distinction you make between 'disagreeing' and 'criticizing' does not actually exist -- in my opinion.

When someone disagrees with your opinion, they are criticizing your opinion -- there is no distinction as far as I am concerned.

Criticizing 'you' is a different matter, and I'm pretty sure it is against the rules here.

[Connie_Corleone]

81. Fair enough.

I disagree with your definitions based on the dictionary definitions, but I won't belabor the point.

[CatWoman]

53. SWIFT DAUGHTER FUCKING PERVERTED BASTARDS FOR TRUTH

talking about constructive -- now you can start your own site.

[hiphopnation]

54. LOL!

Good one. Atta way to distort! Keep up the good work! :thumbsdown:

[CatWoman]

57. careful -- we don't know where that thumb's been..............

[el_gato]

95. Phoney outrage

I guess people who are obsessed with the personal lives of others have some kind of moral highground!!! :eyes:

Sorry I can't get caught up in your hatefest. I've got better things to do with my life.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

116. Now your obsessed because I don't share your interest in Woody

Why are you so obesses with my opinion?

Maybe you ought to find something better to do with your time.

Don't you have a lynch mob to organize?

I find it very funny that since I don't share you
obsession with Woody Allen that somehow I'm the one
that is strange. You are displaying the classical
republican tactic of projection.

If you hate woody allen so much why don't you go
tell him yourself?

[CatWoman]

118. TRUTH BE DEMAND

DAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!

[Misunderestimator]

138. I just have to LOL about "The Cat" following "CatWoman" around.

:D

[hiphopnation]

139. LMAO!!

[Zinfandel]

193. Welcome aboard Woodman...We love you, your politics & your great

insightful films...All the best to you!!!! :bounce:

[pacalo]

115. I totally agree.

The man is a genius in filmmaking & that can't be taken away from him.

[sangh0]

122. Clinton slept with someone else's daughter

so he gets a pass

:shrug:

[Randers]

125. everybody sleeps

with someone who was the son or daughter of someone.

THe idea is that it should be the son or daughter of someone else.


Mia and Woody had a family - an unusual family perhaps - but a family nonetheless. Woody betrayed a lot of us when he decided to have a relationship with his daughter (and even if he did not adopt Soon-yi himself - I still think that was the relationship as SHE saw it and should have been the relationship as HE saw it, also).

I used to like watching his films.

[hiphopnation]

128. Who's the elusive "us" you refer to? n/t

[Randers]

134. well - read this thread for starters

or did you think that I wrote all of these posts with different monikers?!

;)

[hiphopnation]

136. Ya see, it's where

my defense of the man's oeuvre gets confused with me defending him. He didn't "let me down" when all of this went down. Frankly, I wasn't shocked to learn that he was just a little sexually deprived. It's pretty obvious from his films. His actions are deplorable and I have the most amount of empathy for Mia Farrow.

He is a BRILLIANT filmmaker, given all his warts, is all I'm sayin.

[RetroLounge]

147. "Woody betrayed a lot of us "

Wow, I don't know whether to laugh at that or not?

Woody betrayed you? How sad is that...

RL

[deckerd]

126. All I know is some people are saying that Woody slept w/ Chelsea

when is Sen. Kerry going to respond to these accusations?

[CatWoman]

130. Actually

it was Shirley Temple.

didn't you know? I was there!!! I saw it!!!!

[deckerd]

137. I was in the other bed when it happened.

Woody is not telling the truth about his service-in' Shirley Temple.

When I said 6 years ago that Chelsea Clinton was "hot", that was before I read Woody Allen's autobiography and discovered that he was lying about his track record with goyish Upper West Side women.

<UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN:>

Woody Allen is not reliable in bed.

When the chips were down, you could not count on Woody Allen.

THIS MESSAGE PAID FOR BY THE SWIFT WAR FUCKERS FOR CHASTITY. :-)

[CatWoman]

151. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP IT!!!

STOP IT!!!!

:D

[hiphopnation]

27. step-daughter

they are not blood relatives.

[Connie_Corleone]

31. Allen raised her as his daughter.

It's the same thing to me.

[hoboken123]

123. Unmarried, living apart

Not defending him, but it's certainly not black and white.

[mbali]

8. True dat -

I don't trust a man whose view of the world includes only white people . . .

Ever see a black person in a Woody Allen movie (not counting the fat black maids he manages to stick in them)?

[hiphopnation]

30. Yes, I have.

That's ridiculous and inaccurate.

[mbali]

34. You have? In which film?

[hiphopnation]

36. Deconstructing Harry

for starters.

[mbali]

44. Do you mean Cookie, the SMARTASS BLACK HOOKER?

[hiphopnation]

47. Yep.

That's the one. And?

[mbali]

52. And . . . Thank you - You proved my point nicely.

But I'll amend my earlier question - Ever see a black person in a Woody Allen movie (not counting the fat black maids and sassy black hookers he manages to stick in them)?

[hiphopnation]

59. It still begs consideration.

Now that you bring it to my attention, no I haven't. So what's the point? There are plenty of movies out there that have no black people in them many of them made in New York. Does that mean that all of those movies are completely without merit and should be boycotted? I can see not watching "Friends" because it's set in New York and there are no black people in it.

To me Woody Allen, for all his warts and awful deeds in life and even for not putting enough people of color in his films, is a brilliant filmmaker nonetheless. His movies have moved me and made me laugh for years. As an artist, I defend his artistic ability to poignantly transform the human experience onto film.

on edit: Shit, I would even say that MOST of the films based in New York that don't show people of color are without merit. I would say that MOST films made in the last twenty years are without merit. Just that most of them were NOT made by Woody Allen.

[mbali]

68. Actually, I don't watch Friends for that very reason

And I'm not recommending a boycott, which is an organized effort to cause economic harm to someone. But I choose not to patronize Woody Allen movies. And I have no doubt that many white filmgoers (among others) would opt not to pay money to see films by black filmmakers who make film after film after film with virtually no white people in them, except an occasional sighting of a white character embodying the worst, most shallow and most offensive stereotypes.

[hiphopnation]

72. film after film after film

what are some of them, if you don't mind me asking?

[mbali]

79. It's easier to say which of his 30+ films have had black characters: 3

by my count: Bullets Over Broadway (smart-mouthed fat black maid), Hannah and Her Sisters (smart-mouthed fat black maid), and Deconstructing Harry (smart-mouthed black hooker) - if you know of any others, please let me know.

[hiphopnation]

83. No

I was referring to the films by black directors with black actors.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

94. What's more offensive?

A black maid or a black judge on TV?

Is it art's job to reflect the reality or the ideal?

What if the only black people Woody Allen knows are maids and hookers? Is it better if he is true to his reality or if he adds black professional characters to make some kind of point?

(Either way, he's employing black actors to play something other than gangsters and cops and soldiers, which is rare.)

I don't know the answer and it has nothing to do with Woody Allen, but it interests me.

[GoneOffShore]

175. I don't watch Friends

cause it's a stupid show.
Like most of the tripe on TV.
Remember
Don't fall asleep with the television on.

[gottaB]

110. Sweet and Lowdown n/t

[NoPasaran]

155. The drill sergeant in "Love and Death"

[kskiska]

159. Bananas,

Take the Money and Run, Zelig

[allemand]

92. For the record.

Anthony Mason had a small role in "Celebrity" (1998).

[gottaB]

113. Jeffrey Wright as the off-off broadway director

It's a real shame he hasn't been given more leading roles. He carried Basquiat.

[henslee]

135. I always can tune inton any part of Basquiat on cable and get sucked in.

off topic but.... just glad to see it mentioned. It is such a nice lyrical film. A testament to the filmmaker, Schnabel if I am correct.

[gottaB]

140. yeah, Schnabel. But what's your opinion of Before Night Falls?

I thought it was appealing, and Bardem had some good scenes, but overall it was not as compelling as Basquiat. Wright totally occupied that role. He had awesome presence, and projected a kind of ambivalence I can only compare to Brando.

I look forward to Schnabel's next film (Diving Bell and the Butterfly, starring Johnny Depp), but I'd really like to see Wright featured in some starring roles.

[hiphopnation]

154. Not to mention David Bowie as Warhol!

A seamless performance. :thumbsup:

[henslee]

163. I loved when he first meets Andy and the art dealer (Stella?) in the

restaurant and Andy is getting all whiney. Awesome.

[henslee]

158. Agree about Night falls. Kinda lost me. Did not know Shnabman had new pic.

Cool.

[shivaji]

160. Yes...any father who has sex with his daughter should burn in hell

don't matter is she was adopted....he still was a father in the house, and to debauch his daughter is the worst kind of sin I can think of.

Stay away from Kerry campaign you scumbag Woody Allen. We don't need help from degenerates like you.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

4. I like Woody Allen, and his personal life is not my concern

I don't care about the details of his personal life any more than I care about the details of Bill Clinton's personal life. But then again I don't waste my life watching trash tabloid TV.

[CatWoman]

6. I don't like Woody Allen, and I don't like perverted bastards, either

and I don't like men who fuck their girlfriends daughters behind their backs.

P.S. I happened to be in New York visiting friends when that story broke.

One didn't have to be a fan of "trashy t.v." in order to be aware of the sordid details.

[el_gato]

9. I guess you should know since you have been very close to his family?

I don't know him or his wife or any of the other people involved so I don't care to judge people on that level.

But hey, since you are so intimately involved in his life that you are in a position to make that judgement I will defer to you on this matter.

[CatWoman]

11. I didn't have to be close to his family in order to judge him

as a sick fucking pervert.

[el_gato]

21. I don't care about his personal life and I can't waste my time on it.

Perhaps when I become the perfect human being I will be in a position to get involved in the personal lives of others.

[natrat]

157. i like woody

sun yi was of legal age

[shivaji]

161. so....it is alright to have sex with your daughter if she is over 18?

or son for that matter if he is legal drinking age? Do you realize what you are saying?? Except for murder, there is no sin worse than incestual relationship with your kids, adopted or biological. The kids deserve the protection of parents not FROM parents.

[hoboken123]

177. Adopted?

When?

[girl gone mad]

202. She actually wasn't when they started the affair.

It only became exposed when she was 18 or 19, years after it had apparently begun.

[GoneOffShore]

173. So, that was then

An old man named Henry is sitting in a pub, nursing a pint and telling stories. "All the houses, I built," he begins, "and do they call me Henry the builder? No. I was a sailor and sailed the seven seas. Do they call me Henry the sailor? No. I've climbed to the top of Mt. Everest. Do they call me Henry the mountain climber? No. But you f*** one sheep and ... "

I believe that the sex was between people that were over 18.
So who cares?
It offends your sensibility.
I met my present wife when I was 33 and she was 21.
We're still together after 25 years.
Thank you Woody.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Randers]

179. It's legal in this state

to **** sheep.

So by the standards of some people on this thread - legality and all - I guess it wouldn't matter. :shrug:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[GoneOffShore]

182. Are you in

Pennsylvania or Kentucky.
We're in PA so I'm not sure if sheep are legal.
We'd like to see a law that made it illegal to have sex with Republicans.

[Andromeda]

211. ROFLMAO

"We'd like to see a law that made it illegal to have sex with Republicans."

I hear there's a lot of inbreeding among Republicans. :silly:

(Just an aside) Ted Bundy was a Republican. Figures.

[NightTrain]

196. Are you the one who claimed it was impossible for a woman to rape a man?

If so, you'll have to forgive my inability to take your sexual opinions seriously.

[underpants]

3. Oh good

But then Fox will tried to bleed this into the mainstream media with about as much attention as they paid to Bob Mintz, right?

[CatWoman]

73. you SUCK, underpants!!!!!

:D

[underpants]

76. Damn I really need to remember to close the blinds

:bounce:

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. I HATE that SOB!

He's on my boycott list. Ever since he abused his daughter and then married her, he's been on it. Haven't watched one of his films since and never will. He's one sick puppy and I don't give a shit what he has to say. JMCPO

[el_gato]

10. Oh, another close personal friend of the Allen family?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

24. No, I just can't get all worked up with hate.

He bashed bush and that's fine with me.

But I didn't jump on the hate Bill Clinton bandwagon either.

[henslee]

60. What Woody does is his own biz, but we dont need to lob a soft ball to the

families values crowd.

If you cant see the negative value of a Woody vocal endorsement right now, than you either have no common sense or don't want Kerry to win this thing. I'm cool with not judging Woody, but it is delusional of him to think he could actually help Kerry by coming out vocally for him right now. And if he doesn't realize that then he is either senile or a closet neocon zionist.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. He's a sick perverted

SOB. I can't believe someone is actually DEFENDING him. GEEZUSKRIST! The man had a sexual affair with his daughter and married her. I don't give a SHIT that she was Mia's daughter and was adopted. They lived as man and wife and Allen raised those kids as his own from the time they were babies. He's SICK! I don't need to know them personally to see what kind of person he is.

[PassingFair]

198. I think he is technically reprehensible...

But to be fair, I don't believe that he lived with Mia througout the marriage. She adopted the kids, he lived elsewhere. Not exactly a father figure to most of them.
His actions make my skin crawl, and Mia should rightfully have gone for his throat, but this was not your average child abuse case...
and by the way, how many years have they been married now?

[girl gone mad]

15. I haven't gone as far as..

boycotting his films (though I probably should have considering the crap he's put out in the last decade), but as an adoptee, I concur. There are plenty of fish in the sea. He has no excuse for betraying his wife and ruining his family like that.

[mbali]

17. I stopped watching Woody Allen films when I realized that his vision

of New York did not include anyone of color.

A filmmaker really has to go out of his way to make film after film after film about New York that doesn't have any black or brown people in them.

[hiphopnation]

33. Not all of his films are about New York

ya know. Ya oughta try and see a few of the films he made before "Annie Hall" or "Manhattan".

[mbali]

39. I've seen most of Allen's films. That's why I know he doesn't seem

to think there are any black people in the world. It's particularly glarin in his films about New York which, in his vision, apparently has no people of color.

[hiphopnation]

42. What a ridiculous assertion.

What astounding leaps of reasoning! Because (as you claim) there are no people of color in his films he "doesn't seem to think there are any black people in the world"??

So, not only is he a perverted bastard, but he's also a racist? Is that what you're saying? Truly baffling.

on edit: My wife is black and she LOVES his films. I should go let her know right away that because there are no black people in his films that means he's a bigot and a white supremicist and that, therefor, his films have absolutely no relevancy to the human experience. Be right back!

[mbali]

49. Yes - please tell her this if you like

But be sure to tell her that your ridiculous assertion that Allen is a bigot and a white supremecist came from you, not me, since I never said nor implied such a thing.

I don't know why you felt it necessary to note that your wife is black and she disagrees with me. That is completely irrelevant - unless, of course, you believe that all black people think alike and the fact that your wife's opinion differs from mine means that one of us must be wrong.

[hiphopnation]

51. Indeed you are.

I'm curious. You said you've seen most of his movies. Did you take anything away from them? Do you think they're all just nonsensical tripe that would have been better of having never been made?

Just curious.

[mbali]

66. Whatever

I learned a long time ago that it's futile to attempt an intelligent discussion about race with anyone who believes that any suggestion that someone may be less than sensitive on the issue of race is the same as calling that person a racist. Rational discussions of this issue require a deeper understanding than you appear to have, if your visceral knee-jerk response to my criticism of Woody Allen is any indication.

[hiphopnation]

70. OK

I'll admit to have a knee-jerk reaction to defending Mr. Allen. But it's usually because he's getting eviscerated for his, admittedly, creepy actions with his step-daughter and such.

I have never heard someone say they didn't like his films because there aren't enough people of color in his tehm. It's new to me. I am saying that his his films speak to a much larger human experience. I was asking the question that just because there are less people of color featured in his films than some might like does that mean that they can't be enjoyed and appreciated by all?

It's an interesting question and one that I will have to examine the next time I re-watch on of his films.

In the meantime, can I submit to you my earlier question? Have you taken anything away from his films? Did any of them make you laugh? Do you like any of them?

edit: content

[mbali]

77. Yes, I've enjoyed many of his films - and at the same time felt offended

by them. When the offensiveness of his films and what I feel he's saying about people like me outweighed the enjoyment, I stopped watching them.

I liked Gone With the Wind, too. Until I realized that the "political meeting" that Rhett, Ashley and Frank attended was a Ku Klux Klan rally and that the "raid" they led was a lynching. At that point, these men no longer represented dashing noble characters but came to represent something that sickened and horrified me. Once the paradigm shifted, the film is no longer entertaining to me.

Woody Allen's films certainly aren't on that level, but when I watch a filmmaker paint a picture that, to me, is glaringly unreal and when that unreality is based upon the exclusion of everyone who looks like me, it sticks in my craw.

Perhaps this is not noticeable to most white people - when you look at the screen filled with people who look like you, it seems like the most normal thing in the world. But to many black people, watching a Woody Allen film is a reminder that to part of our society, we are still invisible and, when we ARE visible, we are seen only as one-dimensional racial stereotypes. That's annoying enough to deal with in daily life - I don't have to subject myself to that notion voluntarily in my entertainment choices.

I hope this helps you better understand . . .

[hiphopnation]

82. ...

I will consider this the next time I view one of his films. I guess I see his films on purely an artistic level. Since many of us artists live most of our lives in some unrealistic Utopian dream-world where there is no race or creed or ethnicity; just people, all of whom you should try equally hard to love, I always viewed his movies through that rubric. To me, all of his films were brilliant. The fact that there aren't many people of color (or the ones that are are stereotypes) was never glaringly obvious to me.

However, noticing when people of color are not represented accurately (especially in films or shows set in New York or Chicago) it's much more noticeable to me if it's something I find poorly done or part of the American mass-entertainment machine. I just never put Woody Allen's movies in that category before.

Thanks for your insight. :)

[noonwitch]

61. I stopped watching his movies when I realized he was having sex with a kid

He's lucky-if I'd been in Mia's shoes, he'd be dead and I would be up for parole right about now.

[hoboken123]

145. Kid?

I'm having a hard time with that word.

Was Mia a 'kid' when she had sex with Sinatra? He was a 50ish family friend and she was 19.

Monica and Bill?

[RetroLounge]

148. So maybe the problem is Mia and her example

of screwing a much older Sinatra.

What a bad Mom she ended up being... //end sarcasm

RL

[hoboken123]

153. Non-answer AND strawman? Impressive!

If you didn't want to answer.....

[Chomskyite]

184. Yeah, I liked James Baldwin too

. . . till I realized he writes exclusively about black people, most of them males.

I liked William Wordsworth, till I realized he was only writing about British people who live in the countryside.

I liked Shakespeare, till I realized he was only writing about Europeans, except that Othello guy.

I liked Hank Williams, Sr, till I realized he was only writing about white male alcoholics.

I liked Noam Chomsky, till I realized he was only writing about what America is doing, not about what OTHER coutnries are doing.

I liked Jhumpa Lahiri, till I realized she's only writing about first and second-generation immigrants from India.

I liked Good Times till I realized it was only about poor black people.

:eyes:

[Chomskyite]

185. DU's vision of politics

. . . only includes people from the middle to the left side of the spectrum. You still like it, dont you?

[gauguin57]

14. I don't like what Woody did either ... but I posted this because of the

"islands of comedy" line. I just thought it was interesting. Comic moments against a very, very tragic background.

[bobbobbins]

18. wow, i can't believe that this supposedly liberal message board...

would judge a man without knowing the details...this is pretty sad...yes it was his daughter, but she was adopted, and their relationship wasn't made public till she was 20 or so, we don't know what happened before that...and yeah he cheated...so did bill clinton, yet you defend him. I agree what he did is a bit morally ambiguous, but i'd reserve my judgement. And to say anyone defending him is part of some kind of perverted molesters club...i thought we were above those kinds of attacks. I guess we're either with you or against you.

[sugar magnolia]

35. "yes it was his daughter, but she was adopted"

Oh, well if she was adopted then that makes it a-ok. 'Cause of course, adopted kids aren't *really* family members. Its not like entering into a sexual relationship with your "real" child, now that's really sick.

How insulting to adoptive families.

[Connie_Corleone]

37. Hi, Sugar Magnolia

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Good point.

[progressivebydesign]

62. It wasn't his daughter... it was his girlfriend's adopted daughter..

.. they never lived together. I'm shocked at how easily this thread jumped into something they know nothing about...

[CatWoman]

64. they were a family unit, even tho they maintained separate households

does the girl being adopted make it acceptable?

any man who would lay down with his girlfriends daughter is a filthy pervert -- regardless of the daughter's birth circumstances.

then the filthy fucker tried to take away his natural daughter from Mia.

in court, he couldn't even name the child's birthday.

[shrike]

101. He was also accused of molesting Dylan, but I have my doubts

His relationship with Soon-yi was despicable, but I don't believe he's a child molester. People make all kinds of accusations when they're enraged and hurt. I've seen it happen with couples much less famous than Farrow and Allen.

Allen is long past his prime as a filmaker (Crimes and Misdemeanors is one of my favorites) but I appreciate his being on our side.

[Taverner]

105. I dont think the poster is excusing Allen

Merely showing the "on this hand, on that hand" nature of this argument...

[RetroLounge]

149. Get a clue

She was NOT adopted by Woody Allen.

If you are gonna show such moral outrage on your first post, please try google first.

RL

[sugar magnolia]

168. Get one yourself, pal

I did not say she was his daughter. I actually did not comment on Woody Allen at all. I quoted another poster and responded to the statement that she was his daughter, BUT only his adopted daughter. The implication of such a statement is that somehow a sexual relationship with an adopted child is not as unacceptable as one with a biological child would be, and that being adopted doesn't make you as much of a family member as being a biological child does. I find this line of thinking to be distaseful and an affront to adoptive families.

And I will express moral outrage on any post I wish, be it my 1st or my 1000th, thank you very much. But thank you for acting as the moral outrage police, lol. I'll give your recommendation the full consideration it deserves.

[CatWoman]

170. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you're witty!!

welcome to DU!!

:hi:

[RetroLounge]

171. Well, your outrage is pretty funny

as you are outragted at a falsehood.

But hey, please, feel free.

Your moral superiority is funny to watch...

RL

[sugar magnolia]

174. Happy I can give you a chuckle

You've given me a few giggles yourself. Cheers!

But just to be clear, since I'm not sure you fully understood my post, I was not expressing outrage at a falsehood. I'm outraged at the attitude that was behind the stated falsehood (if you need me to clarify further I'd be happy to). Whether or not the facts were stated correctly by the poster I responded to does not affect my assessment of the comment.

I greatly appreciate your permission to be outraged, even if you misconstrue the source of my outrage. It means a lot to me. Really.

[RetroLounge]

180. Okay, you got me laughing.

and I understand your post better now.

Yes, I agree, adopted vs. birth daughter makes no difference.

My point was specific to his relationship, yours was general.

RL

[kskiska]

164. She wasn't his daughter

She wasn't adopted by Woody
Woody was not married to, nor did he live with Mia
Soon-Yi was of legal age and is now in her 30s with two children

Charlie Chaplin married Oona O'Neill, who was 16 or 17, and was his wife until he died. He never (to my knowledge) starred blacks in his films.

Lewis Carroll took naked photographs of little girls. Why aren't we banning his books?

[el_gato]

40. Busybody experts know everything

All those tabloids and trash TV are so INFORMATIVE.

I remember the talk about it and I just could not get
interested in something that is really none of my business.

[CatWoman]

56. heh

it's not like he didn't own up to his filthy exploits.

one didn't need to stay glued to "trash tv" in order to learn all about it.

like I said -- I was right there in NYC when the story broke -- and it was everywhere.


even some of the nude photos of the daughter were made public.

[el_gato]

90. you really seemed to get caught up in it

Nude photos and all, I guess the photos were just laying around on the park benches? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[CatWoman]

93. I just can't stand scumbags.

Help yourself -- he's yours for the taking.

I have great respect and admiration for Mia Farrow -- a woman who adopted so many "special needs" children and provided them with love, care and hope.

I have zero respect for scumbags who photograph in the nude and sleep with their lover's little girls.

You keep saying, "its his business". Yes, it IS his business.

And I have every right to be offended of him, his business, and his actions.

What's in it for you -- do you make it a practice of staunchly defending scumbags?

Too bad you're not a republican.

[Bonobo]

187. Isn't the term "scumbag" as offensive to men as "bitch" is to women?

Or is that just another double-standard we should accept in the current PC environment?

[theboss]

104. By this logic, we shouldn't care if any 50-year-old stepfather sleeps...

...with his teenage stepdaughter?

When it comes to sex, I'm as libertarian as the next guy. But even Larry Flynt would say that taking nude photos of your underage adopted daughter is wrong.

[CatWoman]

106. careful, boss

if you don't PERSONALLY know Woody et al, you have no business commenting.

by that poster's rules, anyway.

[CatWoman]

107. careful, boss

if you don't PERSONALLY know Woody et al, you have no business commenting.

by that poster's rules, anyway.

[RetroLounge]

150. nude photos of the daughter

who was an adult at the time.

RL

[maxsolomon]

19. life is not always pretty & neither are artists.

judge not, lest ye be judged.

woody allen is a true, gifted artist. yet he is vilified beyond reason for his transgression. our lives would be much less rich if allen's movies had never existed. the nuge did nearly the SAME DAMN THING, married an underage girl, and he's now canonized by the wingnuts.

much like clinton's affairs, i could give a fuck about allen's personal life as long as soon yi doesn't. i don't look to him for moral guidance, i look to him for art.

allen's comments get at the heart of the appeal of bush to the american plebian class: they only see the islands & think his presenile doddering is harmless, endearing. the tragedy is kept offstage by the brilliant news management of the white house & the compliant corporate media.

[terrya]

28. There's a cringe factor here.

Just my .02, but I think it's difficult for myself to justify someone fucking their stepdaughter.

Of course, some people still have problems with two consenting men having sex. Whatever.

[Don Claybrook]

32. He makes better movies than most

I'm with the poster who said he didn't give a tinker's damn about Woody Allen's personal life. I don't either. Don't care about Roman Pulanski's either. Still, they both make good movies.

So hate Woody Allen if you'd like, but don't expect that everyone will agree with you.

[Minimus]

55. this thread sure took a dive

it all start with a post about someone being anti-bush (which should be considered a good thing)....

[CatWoman]

58. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

lovely day in the neighborhood.

you think this is bad?

LOL -- stick around :D

[BJ]

63. Yes, it reflects perfectly the liberal attitude...

...of not tying a person's personal life with one's politics. Unlike our reactionary friends we liberals do not stoop to ad hominem attacks.

[Connie_Corleone]

65. To get back on subject...

I like Jonathan Demme.

:crazy:

[goodhue]

71. Good for him!

But I'm not sure he helps the cause much.

[RetroLounge]

75. Careful with the Woody Allen posts

Lots of easily offended posters with "Daddy" issues here on DU.

RL

[bloom]

84. It looks to me like men are defending Woody - women are not

with a couple of exceptions.

So you might as well be saying that ALL (or nearly all) women have "Daddy issues" - while men (mostly) do not.


Maybe women are more sensitive to the idea of sexual morality/incest issues. That is how I see it, anyway.

[hiphopnation]

85. Don't be confused.

I'm not defending Woody's actions, only his brilliant filmmaking career.

[bloom]

86. even still

More men seem more able to look past his actions and continue to enjoy his films than women.


I might have seen one of his films since all that happened - but it makes me depressed - so I would rather not. I think I have a natural shunning response to people whom I have reason to believe are sexual offenders.

[Minimus]

89. I am female and I watch his movies - good and the bad ones

I just like movies and I just don't judge people on their personal lives of which I know nothing about.

Afterall there are always 3 sides to every story: his, hers, and what really happened.

[CatWoman]

91. I watched the custody trial

he tried to punish Mia by taking away their natural daughter, Dylan.

Allen admitted to his depravity, and at the same time, he couldn't even remember his daughter's birthday.

Didn't take the judge long to deny him custody.

Just FYI.

[Coventina]

156. I'm a woman and I'll defend Woody

Mia and Woody never lived together. The girl was NOT raised as Woody's daughter.

He was wrong with the way he cheated on Mia, and he should not have gone after Soon-yi. He did a bad thing, so have many men AND women.

The artist Paul Gaugin took a 13 year old girl as a lover, I don't hear much outrage about that, in fact there is a poster using his name on this very thread!

Ultimately, I feel sorry for all the parties involved. I don't think the situation was good for any of them. And really, we DON'T know the inner workings and dynamics of the relationships involved in that situation.

[kskiska]

166. I'm with you. The whole thing was pretty weird

but it wasn't the first time such a thing happened, and it won't be the last. As I mentioned earlier, Charlie Chaplin married a very young Oona O'Neill. Eugene O'Neill never spoke to her again. She had 6 or so children with Chaplin.

Dylan was not Woody & Mia's natural daughter. The did have a natural son together, but Mia kept him from Woody. She even changed his name from Satchel to Seamus.

I can't believe Woody engaged in child molestation with Dylan for the simple reason that people don't begin this sort of behavior in later life. They most likely hung around schoolyards or behaved as Michael Jackson does. It's not something one just takes up all of a sudden. He had zero interest in children most of his life.

I never particularly care Frank Sinatra personally, but I love his music. I feel the same about Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, and Charlie Chaplin.

[shrike]

197. Got no problem with Woody or any man wanting a younger woman

But of all the women in the world you've got to choose your lover's daughter? Not so nice if you ask me.

[girl gone mad]

207. sigh..

I see Soon-Yi as a manipulative person in her own right. Seeing her interaction with Woody on film reinforced that opinion. I can see what she saw in him - the money, the fame, and perhaps a surrogate father. What could he possibly have seen in her besides a young body? There are plenty of other young bodies he could have had without doing the kind of emotional harm he did to people he supposedly loved.

[arwalden]

78. I Like Woody Allen Movies

they make me laugh.

[Catherine Vincent]

80. Woody Allen - What a geeky looking little man.

Talking about him reminds me of an episode of "The Jeffersons" when there were a lot of look alike celebrities in their apartment and when Florence (the maid) looked at the Woody Allen look alike she uttered "You poor thing, you look just like him!". LOL!

[foo_bar]

169. diff'rent strokes for different folks

[RFKHumphreyObama]

87. FYI -and as a sidenote-Mia Farrow also has made it clear she dislikes *

N/T

[Myrina]

88. Wim Wenders !! Woo Hoo !!

I could take or leave Woody Allen, personally ... I don't give a rat's ass about what's he's done ... but Wim Wenders speaking out about Boosh is totally cool.

:hi:

[henslee]

181. Cool. But not too significant. 1, he's an artsy foreigner. 2. Anyone

int Wim, is already voting for JK. Anyone else might just be turned off by the artsy auteur.

[allemand]

96. Chaplin, Fassbinder, Pasolini, Bunuel...

How good that we don't judge their art by what they did in their private lives...

[hiphopnation]

97. Add Mozart to that list. n/t

[Randers]

112. Well, once they're dead....

what's the difference?



I can wait.

[Connie_Corleone]

114. LOL!!

n/t

[hiphopnation]

117. Me too.

Point being, after he's long dead and gone will you talk about his art or the fact that he was a pervert? I'm sure time will sort that out for us, as it did Mozart.

[Randers]

120. probably both

"after he's long dead and gone will you talk about his art or the fact that he was a pervert?"


Seems like it's all wrappped up together - his life, the women in his life, his films....

I don't know how someone could watch his films and separate it all.

[hiphopnation]

127. Mozart was into scat, did you know that?

Didn't think so.

[CatWoman]

129. BULLSHIT

he was into gangsta rap.

OLD SCHOOL STYLE!!!

[hiphopnation]

131. no no no

not Bull's shit, OTHER PEOPLE'S shit. But yes, "old school style" as you so succinctly put it.

[allemand]

142. While art can be autobiographical, you can't judge art simply

by the autobiography of the artist because of the relative autonomy of art, which is a historical and sociological achievement. Of course, you personally can judge art however you want, but it won't have any sociological relevance.

In contrast, a film like "Meetin' WA" by Jean-Luc Godard (very funny, btw) is much more important for determining the artistic value of Woody Allen's films than his private life could ever be.

[Randers]

144. If I live so long...

it would be interesting to see how Woody Allen's films are considered - in 50 years.

Maybe they will seem to reflect the perversions of our age.

I don't think artists work is really understood without some knowledge of their life. Van Gogh comes to mind. He couldn't really get a job doing anything else - though he was interested in preaching. His life was quite disconnected from others really... if not for his brother, etc. His mental illness and all were all a part of the art.

[hiphopnation]

98. Add Mozart to that list. n/t

[hoboken123]

124. Wagner? n/t

[hiphopnation]

132. rabid anti-Semite

Music? Just this side of brilliant. Bafflingly prolific, at least.

[allemand]

143. Tristan and Isolde. Revolutionary.

Also, he was anti-Semitic, but at the same time heavily influenced by Mendelssohn-Bartholdy...

[autorank]

99. We don't need 'fiends' like Woddy Allen. Deport him!!! n/t/

[theboss]

103. He and Roman Polanksi could share a time-share

Though I am willing to give Polanski the slightest benefit of the doubt since he wasn't, you know, the girl's father and all.

[autorank]

188. thebos is Right!!! at least RP had talent!!! n/t

[hoboken123]

146. Why? Just Because!!!!!

Why not Guantanamo?

I heard he jaywalked once, maybe you can use that as an excuse.

[autorank]

189. Guantanamo is far to civilized for the woodman!!!

[hoboken123]

199. Firing Squad Sound Good?

Just on general principle, right?

After that, all the adulterers!

[autorank]

200. Hey there, are you equating adulterers with child molesters?

I know adulters, adulters are friends of mine, Woddy Allen is no adulterer.

[hoboken123]

208. What child molesters are you talking about?

I'm trying to follow your logic but it's tough:

You want to deport Woody and torture him in a place worse than Guantanamo for his consensual relationship with an adult. Why wouldn't you throw adulterers in there?

Are you advocating deporting Clinton?

[theboss]

102. I can't even look at Woody without wanting a shower these days

It's nice that he's going to vote for Kerry, but I don't think his being a vocal advocate helps anyone.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

108. Good thing you didn't walk by him on the street like I did

He was with Soon-Yi. I felt bad for him. He looked like an unshaven homeless person, and she just stared straight ahead because she saw I had recognized them.
All I have to say is.... whatever. It's sad and tragic.

[theboss]

109. Seriously, I would want to punch him

And I'm pretty sure I could take him.

I have too much of my Italian grandfather in me. When I was about three, a man in my town was arrested for molesting his nephews. Obviously, in my small town this was big news. My mother - who was still getting to know my dad's father at the time - mentioned to him that she wouldn't know what to do if that happened to me. My grandfather calmly told her that she wouldn't have to do anything. She said why. He said, "Because I would kill him and then go tell the police that I killed him and accept my sentence. I'm old. What the hell do I care about jail?"

A few years later, my grandfather walked in a on heated argument between my mom and dad. He immediately stopped them and told my mom that if my dad ever raised his voice to her again, to give him a call and he would show up and beat my dad with a sawed-off pool cue for her.

Grandpa didn't go for men abusing women or children. Neither do I.

[hoboken123]

119. Grandfather would kill an accused man?

Here's a book for him: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879758090/104-5755883-3257551?v=glance


Beatings with a pool cue for an adult raising their voice? These are values you wish to encourage?

[theboss]

121. He was old school....

I wouldn't necesarrily encourage his tactics. But I do share his general belief in right/wrong and protecting your community. I also admired his poker skills.

[secular_warrior]

133. it looks as if this argument is breaking by gender

Men seem to see it as sleazy but not criminal, but women seem to see it as very criminal.

The issue here is one of the girl being a child (pedophilia) and the girl being related to him (incest).

If the girl was not underage, I don't see it as criminal what he did. A lot of normal men have a 'lolita fetish', i.e. they're attracted to post-pubescent teenage girls (not pre-pubescent girls, which would make them a pedophile). Elvis for example, married a teenage girl. Jerry Seinfeld has a thing for adult teenage girls. Britney Spears is popular/unique because she appeals to the lolita fetish crowd.

If Allen didn't raise her like his daughter, then there is no incest. From the little I know, he did not think of himself as her father.

So what remains is that Allen shagged his girlfriend's daughter, which is a very sleazy thing, but not criminal (incest or pedophilia), IMO.

[bloom]

165. IF

Mia's and Woody's relationship began when Soon-Yi was 18 or older, that would be one thing.

I believe she was more like 10. Mia and Woody also conceived a child of their own during this time - so I can't see how Woody would not have seemed like a father from the time Soon-Yi was 10 going forward.

I knew someone in New York City around 1990 before this broke - who worked at the day care where Woody Allen would pick up whatever kids were going to the day care at the time (seems like a fatherly thing to do...). She said he was a real a**hole.

If anything, this discussion makes me think about the dangers of continuing a relationship which for all practical purposes would have been a marriage - only without the marriage. Perhaps women are more likely to see a relationship of this sort as a common law kind of marriage and men are more likely to see it as just screwing around. :shrug:

And while no "crime" may have been committed - that doesn't mean it wasn't the wrong thing to do. It's a funny thing that so many women can feel so strongly about it and so many men are so adamantly clueless as to why they do.

[hoboken123]

176. Clueless?

I think a lot of people(men) understand what Woody did was wrong.

The ideas of deportation/beatings/murder are the part I find clueless, reminds me of the Repub attacks on Clinton.

[secular_warrior]

183. I can definitely see why women feel strongly about it

What he did definitely was very wrong. Especially if he knew her as a child and played a father-like role in her life. And I don't think most men see a long-term relationship as simpy 'screwing around', especially in blue states where that arrangement is as normal as traditional marriage.

And I can easily see how women would feel especially strong about it because what he did violated Mia on so many levels -- as a mother, as a 'wife', as a person.

However, you are correct that men see this differently. The brutal truth: in situations like this men ask themselves the question 'would I do her?'. The answer for most men regarding a post-pubescent (and thus biologically adult) teenage girl (even if technically underaged) would be 'yes'. The dirty little secret about the typical male sexual appetite is one that involves teenage girls -- and not always girls that are of legal age. It is a typical male fantasy. I think this is hard for most women to understand.

[incapsulated]

203. I strongly disagree...

There is a HUGE difference between *thinking* or fantasizing about fucking your teenaged step daughter who you have known since she was a little child, and actually doing it (in between taking pictures of her spreading her legs).

I think most women (and men) can and do understand the difference.

Unfortunately, Woody did not.

[secular_warrior]

209. I do think it is very wrong and do see the distinction

My point is only about the very different ways in which men and women see this.

Women see this from the perspective of a wife and mother. They are trying to explain it away as pedophilia and incest, when it is neither. What he really did was abuse the trust of his wife, her adopted daughter and his family.

I think most men (especially younger men) see this from a boyfriend perspective. Most of us can understand why a guy in a relationship may want to have sex with his girlfriend's biologically adult teenage daughter (or sister or cousin or whoever), and who may engage in sex if the girl offered it and/or consented. I think most men see what he did as extremely morally wrong, but somewhere deep down in the male mind we can understand how/why he would do it. That's not to excuse anything, just explain.

ps. If he was lusting for Soon-yi before she became a biologically adult female, then he is a pedophile. But somehow I doubt it, and just think has a lolita fetish, like a lot of men. (Which, again, does not excuse what he did).

ps2. We should also keep in mind, that in MOST world cultures, it is very normal for men of all ages to have relations with biologically adult teenage girls (who may or may not be over the age of 18 -- which is simply just an arbitrary number anyway). Only in Western culture is it somewhat taboo. Universally -- across cultures and history -- the male ideal of sexiness has been and continues to be the 'ripe' (recently became a biologically adult female), virginal teenage girl. It is not pretty to think about that, with our civilized Western culture and all, but it is true, if we are really to be honest about 'menfolk'.

[incapsulated]

210. I still disagree

Of course women will see this differently, from Mia's point of view as a mother and a lover. But, as a woman, I can certainly understand the sexual fantasy/attraction to a teenage girl, and that is a whole other subject which deals more with the objectification of women as much as a "ripe" body as far as I'm concerned. Women can see a very young man as beautiful and sexually attractive, the reason we don't usually have that much of an interest is that we see them as people, not fuck-dolls. We see them as boys that have little to offer other than a young body, and sexual desire is determined by much more than just skin and bones. Most women are attracted to the very things that men find so threatening in women that are not existent in a girl, and I believe that is also a reason for their attractiveness to men. They are immature, they are ignorant of life, they do not bring any power, judgment or expectations. This makes it easy to view them as sexual toys. This goes far beyond simple "sexual attractiveness".

But back to the subject. This wasn't just any teenager. This was a girl to whom he was a very real father figure, they had been in that relationship since she was ten years old. You don't suddenly, when she becomes "legal" start to see her has just some available teenager with a father fixation. That negates the entire relationship that they had until that point. Nor do I believe he took an interest at the strike of 12:00 on her 18th birthday (which, I understand, no one is certain of anyway, she could actually be younger than is assumed). He saw this girl grow up, he saw her all the time, he was her mothers boyfriend, husband, her only father figure.

If all of that is meaningless, then genuine incest isn't far behind as being "acceptable if she is of legal age".

[secular_warrior]

212. I don't know. This is more complex than it seems.

If he was truly around her as a father figure from age 10 and up -- then he should've viewed her as a daughter figure regardless of how her physical attributes changed. In that case, he would indeed be guilty of pedophilia and/or incest.

I just think I need more proof (that he was a father figure and/or he wanted to have sex with her since she was a child) to be able to say he's guilty of something as serious as pedophilia or incest (or even something close to it). Usually pedophiles and sexual abusers have a history of this behavior, and there's nothing to suggest Allen has that history. If he had pedophile or incest tendencies, one would think he would've displayed this behavior much earlier in life, especially being a celebrity and all, with access to anything he wanted. You're either a sexual deviant (in this case pedophilia and/or incest) or you aren't. Normal men aren't attracted to women/biologically adult teenage girls for pedophilic or incestual reasons. So either Allen is normal or he isn't. He either committed incest/pedophilia or he didn't. Based on his history, the evidence would suggest Allen has normal sexual desires, maybe a few quirks like 'lolita fetish', but otherwise normal. That would mean what drove him to do what he did was not pedophilia or incest.

But I agree with you and the others that Allen, even if he is not a sexual deviant, has no excuse for doing what he did, and that a better adjusted, less egotistical man would've realized that acting on any 'lolita' urges with his girlfriend's daughter would've been perceived as pedophilia and/or incest and completely unacceptable, antisocial and morally reprehensible even if the girl was willing and/or initiated the relationship.

ps. I think the differences in male and female sexual attraction are rooted in biology and evolution, and not a result of 'cultural programming'.

[Minimus]

141. I thought I was in GD: Campaign 2004.

[mtnester]

152. With friends like this...

who needs damn enemies.....Woody Allen is an idiot and a lot worse...shoo...go away.

[krkaufman]

162. With friends like Woody.... n/t

[Leilani]

167. Wow! I must be the only person at DU

who does not like Woody Allen movies!

Have never been able to watch one in its entirety.

[robbedvoter]

172. I love Woody Allen, his movies, his persona.

His ex-girlfriend's adoptive daughter ain't qualifying for your drama - much as the histeria went and still goes.
Big box office numbers were never his ambition, so the Enquirer lot can continue to pout - Allen will continue do make good movies to his fans delight. His comments on the tragic humor of bush are dead on as well.

[GoneOffShore]

178. I'm suprised

this post hasn't been moved to the Lounge.
The amount of idiocy being batted around makes it look like something on AOL.

[WillyT]

186. I Got Your Woody Right Here !!!

Jesus...

DU meltdown in progress it seems.

And it was such a nice TWO DAYS!!!!!!!

:wtf:

[President Jesus]

190. Woody's campaign contribution history

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=NY&last=Allen&first=Woody

[brentspeak]

191. I met his stepdaughter/wife in college

She attended Drew University in NJ at the same time I did. Unbelievably stand-offish at a college that's stand-offish to begin with. I recall seeing her waiting on line at the bookstore -- with the counter featuring a stack of Times or Newsweeks that had a front cover story featuring her and Woody.

[gauguin57]

192. Holy screaming weiners!

I started this thread because I thought Woody's quote about the islands of comedy -- comic moments against a tragic background -- was interesting. I knew Woody would be a lightning rod, but OH MY GOD! I NEVER thought I'd come back tonight and find 191 posts!

Jeez! I was just throwing out an interesting quote and a gossipy little item ... I had no idea.

[LaPera]

194. Woody is the best!

[autorank]

201. ...SLEAZEBALL EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LaPera]

204. The best...I'm sure you have never done anything that we can't ALL

dissect...for you?

Throw the first stone!

[JSJ]

205. "the heart wants what the heart wants...

...to schtup". Having said that, I think the Woodman could be an asset to the campaign. He could help Kerry by regularly applying his gift for humorous analysis against the bastards- that is if he'd be willing to do so.

[LaPera]

206. Absolutely. Cheers to you!!!

What it's ALL about...politics, and getting Kerry elected.

Let's NOT fight among ourselves, for what some choose as "moral" reasoning...

Devide and conquer, the fascist republican plan.

[Moderator]

213. Locking.....

This has become flamebait.


DU Moderator