Do the ends justify the means?

[WCGreen]

When you come right down to it, that is the question we should use to measure the efficacy of all ethical concerns. I mean that is what those who favor say torture are really saying.

And since the number one ethical problem, so we are lead to believe by the media, in the US at this moment is should torture be allowed when the end result is saving American lives?

Is this really the question? Are we so concerned about saving American lives from terrorist attack that we will under take any means in order to get to that goal even if those same means undermine what normal Americans would view as fair play?

If the goal is to save Americans here and abroad from being killed or maimed, then why are certain industrial standards lax enough to allow for a certain amount of say poison into our processed food? If the goal is to save lives, then why are we not torturing the Chiefs of the Food Industry in order to stop them from poisoning Americans?

Perhaps the folks who are ready to torture at the drop of a hat are concerned with violent, sudden death from those who are pushing a different political ideological.

If that is the case, why do they champion the free enterprise system as it is? There is concrete proof that manufactured goods and processes set their standards to allow for a certain number of injuries or deaths from malfunctioning products. Just look toward actuary table to see the statistical allowable death due to say lax safety measure on cars and trucks.

Industrial concerns cry the cost of diminishing returns which really means it is too expensive to cover all possible catastrophes that their products or procedures cause.

Isn't that what terrorists say, that because they can't afford to mount a conventional attack on the US they have to resort to a cost effective way of attacking their enemies.

The bottom line is that if the true function of the American Government is to protect us from sudden death, does it really matter if that death comes from a terrorist or originates in a Board Room where decisions are made on how much death and injury can they get away with before it starts to effect profits.

It's funny that in the Health Care debate, the republicans are claiming Tort Reform is the answer to quell rising medical costs. That people who are injured as they look for a cure should just grin and take it since the doctors and hospitals are their to do good and even if they make a mistake or operate drunk they should not be held accountable. They are happy to admit, by backing Tort Reform so vehemently, that a certain number of deaths and injuries are allowable.

Would that these same green-shade wearing Conservatives looked at the cost we have born seeking revenge for the Twin Towers Attack. What is the measure of the response? What is the cost to our nation? But more important yet never discussed is what the response has done to the myth of American fairness? Is torture really the Answer to our problem or a symptom of our continued decline into the muck of unexceptionalism?

[jwirr]

1. That was the first principle that my American- German parents taught

me. The end never justifies the means. After WWII they understood this very well.

[WCGreen]

2. What higher standard allows for torture?

I would like to know. In a just society, the ends should never justify the means.

[jwirr]

3. Amen.

[Hippo_Tron]

4. I think that we make ends justifying the means calculations all of the time

I think the problem is that we fail to take into account that there is no guarantee that we are going to get the ends that we want and factor that into our ends vs means calculations. For example, there's a difference between sacrificing one life to save a thousand and sacrificing one life for X probability that you will save a thousand.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. Torture does not keep us safe. Period.

It is unethical to torture. It demeans us.

It causes the tortured to say whatever they think will make us stop.

That hardly keeps us safe...

Of course, death that originates in a Board Room is just part of doing business...or so I've heard.

Those folks have to strike a balance between how much death we will tolerate vs. how much will help their bottom line...

Torture is never a proper answer. It is as wrong as it can be...If we continue to embrace it, we will decline, not into unexceptionalism, but into a lower level of hell.


K&R

[Odin2005]

6. I'm a Kantian, so I think the ends NEVER justify the means, EVER. PERIOD.

Never use another person merely as a tool for an end, a cog in the machine.

[NYC_SKP]

7. I cannot help but think of the biggest STFU ever from a president, and it's a bit like ends & means:

Ronald Wilson Reagan:

"A Rising Tide Raises All Boats."

In other words, STFU Progressive Democrats and Middle Class America, this is GOOD for you.

:puke:

[Cleita]

8. Never really, because it can be used to justify all kinds of

abuse of power. Or as Sister always said in Catechism, two wrongs don't make a right. Trite but true.