Is THIS even possible?? Joe Trippi on Hardball

[in_cog_ni_to]

said someone had emailed him about the CBS memos. That person told Trippi that it was a possibility that the memos had been typed in the 70's and were scanned into a computer and THAT is how the "different" fonts came to be???? Does that make ANY sense to you? Is that possible? :shrug: The different fonts would have to be typed in the memo, no? They don't just magically change....do they? I've never noticed any font change in things I've scanned. :shrug:

I'm computer illiterate so, I thought I'd ask DUers. :hi:

[MissB]

1. There were some theories on that here yesterday

But I can't point you to specific threads.

[ibegurpard]

2. Doesn't sound at all plausible to me

but considering all the techonology-deficient people out there mouthing the RW talking points about all of this, it doesn't really matter. If it sounds plausible to people who don't know anything then it could fly.

[dogman]

3. A scan is a picture.

I believe you're right.

[DemDogs]

26. An OCR scan is not a picture.

Software reads the characters.

[Protected]

4. Evidently somebody on Air America radio called in and said something

like this as well. (I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same person.)

I think they're talking about OCR (optical character recognition.) When a person scans a document into a computer it is captured as an image. OCR software can then 'read' that image and convert the characters in the image to text that can be manipulated in a word processor.

This theory makes no sense. For one, it doesn't explain why the baseline is shifting around. It would also mean that CBS was using not just a copy of the documents, but a completely re-generated version of the documents.

[merh]

17. I like the theory of the guy that called Randi Rhodes today...

Rummey gave Rathers the memos. That is why Rathers won't release the source. (Rather and Rummey and others share the ownership of a ranch.)

[Rick Myers]

5. A scan is a 'picture' of the document, but

the quality of the scan is variable, as is the output of any printer.

[RadiDem]

OCR software >

It could have been scanned, with Optical Recognition Software. This turns the document which is scanned as a 'picture' into letters and words. It could then be printed out in ANY font.

[billkurtmeyer]

6. Why do we keep talking about the Repub Frame?

Who cares, the facts contained in the memos are accurate by continuing to play the Repub's game we divert attention from the real facts - * was A.W.O.L!!

[TrueAmerican]

7. OCR software

Somebody raised the theory of OCR software was used.

[Iceburg]

16. You can't use OCR to pick up a signature

[GR]

22. Paste The Sig In As A Jpeg...Then FAX or Copy...

that could have happened. I'm not saying it did..

[Iceburg]

27. Exactly. Further doctoring. I am still from the camp

that believes NO ONE has yet proved that the document was produced on a computer using msword or other software products.

[demwing]

36. I believe that OCR software can selectively recognize text

So you can scan a magazine page, catch the photographs, and still end up with editable text

[zoeb]

8. you can scan

pages in at the Adobe site and the change the type...I think the pages look differently after they convert it to PDF file.

[billkurtmeyer]

10. Stop - talking like rupubs - lets talk about the fact that -- nothing

contained in the memos is inaccurate - * and his handlers haven't answered the questions, that is exactly what Rather is saying. Hammer the fact that * was AWOL forget the debate over the memos - that is exactly what Rove and his slimy bunch want!!! Get back to the real story!

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. Joe Trippi is not a repuke.

He is who said this on Hardball, K?

[meti57b]

9. It makes sense to me. ....

The National Guard has millions of records, it's a lot of paper taking up space yet they see reason to not throw them out, so they scan the stuff into the computer. A lot of government agencies are doing that.

[Drifter]

11. OCR ...

Optical Character Recognition.

That is where you scan a document (as a picture), then use software to turn that picture into a stream of text. That text is saved as a text document (or in your favorive word processor). This would certainly explain the modern fonts.

These documents could have easily been scanned (and perhaps later) processed to extract the textual content of the document.

I doubt this ability existed then, but as things go paperless, this would be a common activity.

I am a bit of an authority on this as I write SW for document scanners capable of doing this.

Cheers
Drifter

[janx]

13. Come to think of it, I've done this before myself when I was working

with hard copy for a literary magazine. If the author hadn't sent a disk, we scanned the manuscripts and then formatted the text.

[Protected]

20. Yes, but this didn't happen here

The PDF files released are images of text. If CBS News had document experts come in to validate an OCR document, we should probably say goodbye to their reputation right about now.

The OCR explanation makes no sense.

[Ravy]

33. I think that the miscommunication here is that...

the pdfs could have been made of a document that had been OCRed (or simply retyped) after 1973 at some time, and re-signed by Killian.

Of course, they would have had to have been reprinted and re-signed before his death, but there was word-processing software commonly available then. And, IBM Selectric printers were also available.

They are a LONG way from proving any forgery took place.

[GR]

15. I Think You're Missing The Point...It Wasn't That They Were Scanned

in 1970's but that they were scanned TODAY. There are two kinds of scans, as you've pointed out, photographic "dumb" scans and scans which in effect turn the document into something that can be word processed. When I heard Trippi suggest that, it made a lot of sense...BUT why would anyone want them to be "alterable", unless they wanted to cover their tracks in some way.

[KC21304]

21. So do you think that this could be done now with documents

from the seventies ?

[Iceburg]

24. You can't use OCR to pick up a signature

thus the document would need additional doctoring to attach the signature.

[merh]

14. Depending on the software installed on your computer and

your scanner, you can scan a document into the computer and save it as a word document or a word perfect document or a pdf or a tiff or a jpeg or a gif.

That the memos were scanned in and then saved a document with different fonts is not likely, they were too clean. The translation would not have been that clean, you would have had unrecognized symbols and letters throughout.

[GR]

19. Wait a minute, they could have been easily cleaned up after the scan..

once they were in the new format..

[merh]

23. Then the documents would have looked clean - the memos

are not that clean, full of specks and imperfections. I just don't see how that would work, not to mention the signatures. They would not have been converted.

[Progressive420]

18. Actually thats

a good possibility I had a teacher in High School that wrote a program to do just that it would read the characters on the scanned page and turned them into typable text.

[Walt Starr]

25. Absolute;y possible, if the original scans were run through OCR software

But that's the only way.

[lapfog_1]

28. This is bullshit

An OCR scan of a document would NEVER reproduce such a messy
looking thing. There isn't a printer made today that would have
such bad registration, not to mention that the font used in the
"output" document is actually DIFFERENT than a standard computer
font of today (in other words, while both may be "Times New Roman",
the font used in the documents reproduced online have certain
differences from commonly available fonts used today).

[Iceburg]

29. Right on lapfrog!

There has been absolutely no credible evidence put forth that the document was render on a computer.

[Longhorn]

30. Plus document had both a superscript and fullsize "th"

If OCR software was used, they would either both be superscript or both NOT superscript.

Seems the two styles of "th" on one page means the document was typed and the typist forgot to use the special superscript charactor OR the document was word-processed and the typist changed the automatic superscript that the word processor creates to fullsize in one instance but missed it in the other. Either way, it was some sort of operator error to have both styles in one document.

[Ravy]

32. Actually, back in my TI99-4a days (early 80s) I had a printer that

was an IBM Selectric with a serial interface!

I got the printer used at a hamfest (a flea-market for Amateur radio enthusiasts), so they had been around a while.

Perhaps Killian had someone make a computer record of his CYA memos, and they were retyped and he re-signed them.

Maybe he spilled coffee on the original one (his secretary said she typed some just like them) and he had a friend re-type them at a much later date and Killian signed them again.

CBS is right in concentrating on the signature. If it is valid, then the memo is valid no matter when it was typed or re-typed.

Of course, they need to see the source document to see if it was really signed, and not some cut-and-paste job.

[lapfog_1]

34. Oh, I had one of those too

Sort of, though not the model that has been identified here as
a possible contemporary source of the memos. In 1972, I had access
to an "APL" terminal, which was really a souped up selectric
typewriter with an APL character set type ball. That typeball
could produce all SORTS of characters, usually by combination
overstrikes. APL was a VERY compact computer programming language.

What I was referring to is the unlikelihood of someone using current
OCR software, scanning a typed document from the 1970s, and then
reproducing that document, COMPLETE with registration flaws,
occasional superscripts (but not everywhere), and then printing
something that LOOKS sort of like it was typed.

[Ravy]

37. That's the point....

If it was done with CURRENT software, then they are forged, since Killian is dead and couldn't have signed them.

However, the "debunkers" are wrong too--- that it would have had to be technology from the early 70's (to not be forged).

If someone is retyping or OCRing a memo to help preserve it, or making a computer record of it or whatever, you would not change the date on the document. So the date does not have to necessarily match the date the technology was available for it to be legitimate.

[n2mark]

31. Missing pieces

There are many missing pieces to this puzzle, I think CBS has the missing pieces.. Will they be allowed to put the puzzle together? I think their witnesses are being threatened , one by one, I think Dan Rather is being pressured . So, will the truth overcome the fear?

Rather has enough years in his retirement fund and savings that he could say "Cheney you!" But I think if it comes down to his witnesses or whatever you want to call them being harmed, he will probably back down. That is the type of man he is... he will take care of his sources.

I can remember when retirement was available to me, my feeling was different. I made changes and didn't care about the consequences. My feeling was fire me! My retirement was my strength. I could take my employer to the cleaners if they fired me... so I went for it. Hopefully Rather will feel the same way.

I still think Rather has the goods, maybe this is why the RNC is pushing for absentee voting, get the votes first before the s...hits the fan. Just a thought... as Buzz Flash often says.

Not exactly related.... but it appears the WH is waiting for the s...t to hit fan, Something is brewing. It may be the opposite, they may be ready to smash Kerry, but I doubt it. The no so swifts did their damage. There is still something out there for Kerry which deals with him being a lawyer. Not sure if this has been put out.

Anyway, I am ready to help vacate this crime family from the WH. Kerry should have DU disinfect all the contaminated areas before he moves in.

[CityDem]

35. Plus Tripi was talking about freepers

The people in the media make the freepers sound like some mainstream, highly intelligent form of life. Has everyone in the media gone mad.