Well this is DEMOCRATIC Underground. While you may not like this bill, if it passes, it will be

[ncteechur]

time to get behind it. You can lobby for changes in the Senate bill. You can lobby and call for change in the conference bill. But if it passes, you need to get behind it. Otherwise, go join Libertarian Underground, or Free Republic or whatever. This is DU!

[sandnsea]

1. The Senate bill is worse. This is the good bill.

We need to get behind this bill in a hurry. And this is a huge win and everybody who worked to elect Obama needs to be thrilled today.

[saracat]

9. It makes the Hyde amendement permanet if the Stupak Amendment blackmail passes.

Thrilled? It won't help many , including me, in any way. And I desperately "Need" health care. Why should I be thrilled?

[madfloridian]

29. It expands the Hyde amendment to private insurance as well.

[saracat]

32. Exactly. This is wrong on so many levels.

[karynnj]

51. Why won't it help you?

If you have a pre-existing condition, it should help you. If your income is less than 3 or 4 times poverty (the threshold is not set), won't you qualify for a partially subsidized health insurance plan. In addition, if you have to buy an individual plan, you will be able to get rates similar to those large companies get.

Even if you have to pay for abortions out of pocket, it would seem you do benefit.

[madfloridian]

54. Yes, first we cave on gays, then women...then ...what?

What comes next?

[vaberella]

57. We caved on gays?! When did this happen?

Are you talking about during the Clinton years or currently?

[saracat]

62. Are you kidding? The DNC and the WH Refused to help fight in Maine.They refused.

[saracat]

61. I started to answer this and realized it wasn't anyone's business.

I will answer about the abortion question though.I will never need one or have a daughter that needs one. But I spent many years fighting to protect what I think is a basic right of women's health care and I will not support anything that threatens it.

[CTyankee]

80. Thank you, Sara

I have two daughters and three granddaughters and I want to thank you for your advocacy on DU on behalf of reproductive health care for women.

I appreciate all you have done on their behalf and I have worked almost my entire life in nonprofit organizations that have supported this effort.

Thank you, again.

[saracat]

83. OMG. You almost made me cry. I have gotten so used to being condemed

for supporting choice on this board. Thank you so much. I am so sad about all this and angry too.

[CTyankee]

101. Well, that is shortsighted of them. Chalk it up to the passions of the moment here.

When everyone here on DU comes to their senses after this vote, it will become clear once again that the fight to preserve a woman's right to choose is NEVER over. "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

Take care, Sara...

[The Magistrate]

2. Hear Hear, Sir!

[Bolo Boffin]

3. If Kucinich and Weiner can vote for this bill

I can support it, with all the reservations I have about it.

[still_one]

7. It provides a foundation that can be remedied later. Doing nothing will get us nothing /nt

[lillypaddle]

93. Exactly

I too have always supported a woman's right to choose. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that a legal medical procedure will not be covered, primarily because of religious beliefs. HOWEVER, we have to start somewhere, and unfortunately abortion is such a hot topic issue, it will sink health care reform at this point. We can get more of what we want later.

[Aramchek]

4. you're either on the Bus, or you're not...

[Beacool]

107. Or you're under it................

:eyes:

[saracat]

5. Really? Who are you to tell us what we MUST support? If the Stupak amendment

is in the House Bill and the Senate Bill and the opt out is in the final bill to, I won't support it.Why should I? this Bill may end up not supporting the basic tenants of the Democratic Party. It will NOT cover everyone and imposes fines on those who already struggle. It allows private ensurers to deny coverage of a medical procedure to women and my state already has plans to opt out. I do not "trust" any of these pols to make it better and the odds of getting another opportunity to pass a better bill are dim. It won't be in my lifetime.
It is because I am a real Democrat and a liberal that I cannot support a HCR Bill that reforms nothing and takes rights away.

[ncteechur]

10. I am a real Democrat who understands the reality of winning. It is NOT better to be right than to

win! We have to win this! Now! We don't have time to get your perfect bill. Get over it and get on board.

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. Jeez. As someone who wants a better bill but who is still hoping that this one makes it through, I

have to say that your attitude is very off-putting. I can only imagine how it goes over with the people who don't want this bill at all.

Use honey, not vinegar.

[bigwillq]

15. As opposed to fake democrats?

:shrug: I am so freaking sick and tired of people telling me that I am not a Democrat or that I am a freeper or that I am a troll because I may not agree with everything this damn Congress and this damn administration does.

"Get over it" You sound like the freaking republicans. :puke:

[saracat]

16. Winning seems to be everything and it doesn't matter "What" we win. What do I win? I win nothing

from this Bill. Nothing. And further, I get rights removed from me.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

40. God forbid you don't personally get something out of it... Sing it again sad sister.

:hi:

[saracat]

44. I and many, many others.We are citizens too and we are voters and taxpayers.Why don't we count?

Why should I support something that is against my own interests?

[madfloridian]

25. That is why we no longer donate or do boots on the ground work locally.

Our Democrats here sound just like you do...

[John Q. Citizen]

27. Who says you are a real Democrat? How can we be sure you aren't just an insurance agent who

likes a law saying people have to buy your product no matter how crappy it is?

[Hutzpa]

13. Do you know what the STUPAK amendment is? n/t

[saracat]

24. Yes I do. And it makes :permanent the Hyde amendment as well

banns private insurance companies who participate in the exchange from covering abortions. It go further against choice than anyone has done before. Why do you think the Pro-Choice Caucus is opposing it?

[Hutzpa]

56. Well most here don't have a clue

what his amendment stands for, and yes that prick is trying to undermine
the democrats.

It's shameful...

[msongs]

18. you need to be good little robot and give up your free speech rights lol nt

[still_one]

21. The person is stating their opinion, and you are stating yours, it is as simple as that

However, if we do not get a bill this year, I am convinced it will be decades before that opportunity presents itself again

What this will do is provide a foundation, that can be fixed later. Once it is law, it will be almost impossible to repeal it, and it will be possible to correct deficiencies later

However, if it doesn't pass, there will be no foundation, and I believe you can kiss healthcare reform goodbye for a long time

[madfloridian]

34. Why do you think they are selling women out to get the bill?

Are we expendable?

[Parker CA]

6. Train to the right side of history departing from track 1 in just a couple hours.

[madfloridian]

8. What do you think about the anti-choice provisions?

How do you feel about women's rights?

And what if I question the bill, say we could have done better with such a majority?

Do I have to leave? Do I have to leave the party or DU?

Because I question how poor a bill we got, and why women are considered expendable?

[golddigger]

11. +1000

[saracat]

12. That what they are telling me. And further demand I be "thrilled" yet.

[AllentownJake]

17. DU has a vote on the bill today?

Really, I'm so glad to learn we are now an athenian democracy.

[saracat]

20. Wouldn't it be interesting if we did? We couldn't possibly screw it up anymore than the folks in DC.

[AllentownJake]

22. Marijuana Legalization would become a number 1 priority

:rofl:

[saracat]

28. LOL! You may be right!

:rofl:

[John Q. Citizen]

19. I will support court challenges, I'll write about what's wrong with it, I'll try to get

real reform passed here in my state.

While I'm at it. fuck NAFTA!

[madfloridian]

23. Again, how you guys feel about selling out women's rights to get the bill?

Just wondering.

[saracat]

30. And blackmail. Because not only are they selling out women's rights, They are approving blackmail.

Because Stupak says unless his amendment passes, he has the votes to derail HCR. The pro-Choice Caucus is furious but wavering under the threat.We let the Religious Right dominate democratic politics and this is what happens.

[saracat]

52. Delete Dupe

[saracat]

31. And blackmail. Because not only are they selling out women's rights, They are approving blackmail.

Because Stupak says unless his amendment passes, he has the votes to derail HCR. The pro-Choice Caucus is furious but wavering under the threat.We let the Religious Right dominate democratic politics and this is what happens.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

37. It is not about "marching in Lockstep".....that's bumper sticker language you are speaking in....

which is what Republicans do so well.

this bill is about winning what we can win, and marching forward,
towards a final bill.

You are the one willing to take two steps back, just to make a point;
two steps back and offering your support to the Republican party,
by not supporting this bill......
and your only point that you will make is to deny health insurance
to those who don't have it, period.

Progressives believe in progress, and this is a step toward progress
regardless of your vague protestations,
and whether you want to believe it or not.

[MarlaM]

33. Agree. When our party votes for something, we must support that something

It's the Democratic Underground. Loyalty to the party is an imperative. There are many other blogs to choose from if you wish to oppose bills that the party votes for.

[madfloridian]

35. How do you feel about women's rights being sold out?

Not very important to you, I gather.

[FrenchieCat]

39. How's that? Is an Abortion representative of "Women's" Health.....

in this NOT A FINAL bill?

Hyperbole is ugly and false,
no matter who it comes from.

[saracat]

42. Stop it. Stop being an apologist. The Senate is even more against abortion

than the house.This will likely pass because Stupak has threatened the entire Bill if it doesn't. The Pro-Choice caucus can't stand up against this. The WH is ordering them to stand down I am sorry that you cannot see what is being done.This is the most restrictive action taken against abortion and it makes the Hyde Amendment "permanent'. It extends the hyde Amendment to private insurance carriers. This is really bad. But hey as long as the WSH has a win, it really doesn't matter to you. Just stop denying what is happening.

[janx]

43. saracat, debate on that amendment hasn't even begun yet.

It bothers me just as much as it bothers you, but it hasn't even been addressed yet.

[saracat]

I have been intimately involved in poilitics and legislation for many years.

This is going to pass. They have no choice.they allowed themselves to be forced in a corner and are settling for political expedience at the expense of womsn's health care. These issues are settled long before Debate.Debate is just a dog and pony show. The real debate takes place behind the scenes.

[janx]

50. Are you talking about the amendment--that the amendment is

going to pass? It's my impression, based on what I've read, that the Stupak amendment will have its own debate later tonight. :shrug:

[vaberella]

59. It will. S/he listens to unnamed sources who say it will pass.

We have no clue. And if it does pass, there's nothing to say it will make it in the final bill...but don't let them know that. I was getting more indignant exclamations than facts on the issue when it was brought up on another thread. It took a while to get something---and I still didn't get the language of the STupak amendment.

[janx]

64. Unnamed sources...again. UGH.

Thanks for the explanation.

[vaberella]

76. There were a few...and then now we got a name for one.

Most were op-eds from the radio. I personally would recommend you wait on the news. I remember wen this was going on with the WH between a trigger or PO and I think it was Clyburn who said it was dead and the WH had stuck a deal with Reid so we should expect a trigger. And then it came out that Clyburn was wrong and the WH even denied it and Reid said PO is on the table after he talked to the WH and trigger off. So I'd wait it out and we see what happens.

[saracat]

68. Here is a named source Rep. DeGette of Colorado

Do you listen at all the the radio? NPR had the Pro-Choice Caucus Chair Degette of Colorado and she stated that Stupak was close to passing. They also said the pro Choice caucus might be forced to stand down because Stupka had the votes to block HCR is it didn't pass.

[vaberella]

73. No. I've been living in France for the past 4 months.

I get information when I can because I have real shit internet in this country. Further more, I didn't hear about this particular amendment until YESTERDAY and hence the reason I asked you to provide with me with as much information as possible. I wouldn't have asked if I had known. This is also why I asked for the specific language, which you said you never read. And you did provide me with a link to the opinions of someone else. You ran on the idea that the amendment would pass, and all the people you've read have said that. You've given me an name who says the same. But this was also the problem between one White House and Clyburn over the issue of the PO or trigger, and it so happens Clyburn (who said that the WH pushed and expected a trigger not the PO) was wrong and that Reid went with a PO after talking to the WH. And the WH also said they have supported the PO since teh beginning over a trigger. That being said...I'll wait until the vote happens. I'm not a fan of what I've read on it...still looking for the specific language, but there are still NO guarantees. Then after this it goes to conference and there's a very good chance it doesn't end up on the final bill. You're running on the meme that this is the final bill and we're done for if it goes through.

[saracat]

78. Because it is obvious. The Pro-Choice caucus, who know more than i, think this is so.I hopeI am

wrong, but I doubt it. This began with the recruitingg of the pro-lifers by Rahm. He brought in folks like Webb and Schuler. 25% of the Democratic majority is now Pro-life. These people do not represent our intersts but as long as they help create a majority, no one cares. This is the blowback. Stupack has threatened that they will NOT vote for the HCR if this amendment isn't in it and they have the votes to stop it.The Pro-Choice cuacus will buckle. They can't stand uop to them. And the WH wants this no matter what is in the Bill.Whatever it takes is the motto. I believe this is a done deal.

[vaberella]

84. You just might be. On a voice vote it failed. We'll see on an official tally.

I think it will. Then you'll be wrong. I don't normally count my chickens before they hatch. I understand your anxiety and anger, it's justified. But the way you go about expressing it is antognostical and just a piss-poor approach. So far we're seeing something going to the floor and continously debated. You push the issue as though it's a fact set in stone----so far it's not. Even if it becomes a fact it doesn't mean it will make it past conference.

[saracat]

86. Sorry if I am antagonistic but on the other hand, I really can't stand seeing

womens' rights go down in order to support a piece of crap bill. I also have friends who have had to gamble their careers on this vote and that too is horrible. The possibility of losing your seat because of a vote on a good bill would at least be noble but to have to cast a yes vote because no alternative is available other than a bill that isn't any good is heartbreaking.

[saracat]

91. Well it passed. Stupack passed. A big fuck you to women. They are expendable after all.

And the chances of it being in the Final bill are huge.

[freddie mertz]

99. And it DID pass.

Denial can only get you so far.

[madfloridian]

49. We have been following it all day.

It will probably go through with 45 votes.

That is sad, and we should not tolerate it. DKos forum has been on this all day with numbers and ways to contact, and we are saying back off?

[vaberella]

63. What are you talking about? Stupak is separate.

They haven't even started on the Stupak Amendment, the only who has really brought it up several times is Boehner. It has yet to be looked at, this is to get the bill to conference. This debat is currently to open up langauge and either clear up some concerns or put forth their position for either yay or nay. But they haven't started on STupak, it's separate.

[cornermouse]

66. It basically makes abortion illegal.

Back to the days of coathangers courtesy of the democratic party, no less. Talk about betrayal.

[karynnj]

71. Where do you get that Senate is more against abortion than the House

The Senate Finance committee, which is the most conservative committee in the Senate voted down an anti abortion measure.

I think the bill simply says that the plan can not cover abortion if federal dollars are used. Nothing here says that employer/employee paid plans or privately paid plans can't. Not to mention, the average cost of an abortion is apparently between $400 and $500 - and hopefully it is a rare occurrence. Don't you think it possible that nonprofits could step in for people who can't afford it. This does not change that abortion is legal.

[saracat]

74. Rep. Degette and the Pro-Choice caucus said so on NPR.

It also bans the coverage of abortions by private insurers that participate in the Exchange. And it makes the Hye Amendement "permanent" as opposed to renewable. And yeah, people with money who can afford it will be able to get abortions privately. How nice.

[madfloridian]

46. Democrats are considering an amendment to stop private insurance...

from doing what they do now.

We give up our rights so easily.

The minute the religious right heard we were considering leaving out abortion rights... they went after birth control

And we will probably go along with that as well.

Anything goes now?

[freddie mertz]

98. You should know better.

[Sebastian Doyle]

55. How about "the party" being loyal to US?

You know, the people who fund it and vote for it?

Or is that part not covered in your talking points script?

[Beacool]

106. Party loyalty is imperative???????

Lenin, is that you????

Always question authority. Party loyalty is NOT imperative if it goes against one's beliefs.

Think for yourself, don't follow anyone or any political party like a lemming.

:(

[Oregone]

36. Fuck that. What part of Democratic don't you understand?

Maybe if this was the fascist underground. If its a piece of shit, everyone and anyone should be free to call it out as so

[FrenchieCat]

38. Most Democrats are smart, reasoned, and aim for progress........

and whether you like it or not, this bill represents progress,
even if you don't think so.

Those who would rather be right,
than go forth with this bill towards a final bill,
are not Democrats; not by a long shot...
they only play one at DU.

[Oregone]

41. Yeah, we could of used some reasoned intellectual debate on health reform

Instead this mandated & subsidized piece of shit was shoved down everyone's throat with the aid of Kabuki theater

[saracat]

48. How does making the Hyde Act permanent and extending it to private ensurers progress?

[madfloridian]

53. Now you are putting down women who question why their rights are being sold out?

That's sad.

[brentspeak]

85. That disqualifies you right off the bat

[Odin2005]

45. Stupak's anti-choice BS is RW crap, not Democratic.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Me.]

58. I Thought Only The Cons Were Into Purity Tests

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

60. What the hell do you mean by "get behind it"?

Seriously... what the fuck are you even barking about?

Do we have to hold a certain opinion, or forswear any criticism or what?

Since both houses of Congress have Democratic majorities, to what actions of congress do you grant us the right to object?

[ClarkUSA]

65. All the whiners, haters, failers, and keyboard know-it-alls who spend 24/7 attacking Democrats...

.... represent a very small minority of the Democratic party or a very large majority of the Republican party.

Polls show again and again that an overwhelming majority of liberals (and Democrats in general) support the efforts of
President Obama to enact healthcare reform while it's obvious that those here who never liked or supported President
Obama last year are not going to do it now.

In the past, there were those who cursed FDR's Social Security and LBJ's compromises on Medicare. Good thing saner
heads prevailed then. I have no doubt that they will prevail once again.

[saracat]

89. There is no comparison bedtween this and FDR. Read his Bill of rights, No Dem today would dare run

on it and any Democrat who would support anything as evil as the Stupak Amendment isn't a Democrat.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

96. Was FDR a democrat?

Or would no democrat support something as evil as internment? Or was internment not evil?

[ClarkUSA]

97. Of course there is. The animus against Social Security was extreme.

As for the Stupak Amendment, it does nothing more than apply the Hyde Amendment prohibiting federal funding of abortion. And so many here conveniently forget that HCR was never written to fund abortions in the first place.

[ProSense]

67. When the bill passes

and is signed into law, reality will kick in.

[saracat]

69. Will you defend Stupak when it passes?

[ProSense]

70. Will you accept reality when it passes? n/t

[saracat]

72. So, you're not going to answer? Will you defend the Stupak Amendement if it passes? Do you find it

acceptable to make the Hyde Amendment "permanent" and to extend it to private insurers? Is it acceptable to you that private insurers in the exchange will be banned from providing for abortions?

[Better Believe It]

75. Do you speak for the Democratic Party?

And do you want to drive liberals and progressives who don't agree with you out of the "big tent" of the Democratic Party .... a tent that is only for centrists and moderates who will dictate Democratic Party policy?

Go along with them or get out and off DU .... that's your approach.

I suppose you could propose that the DLC just take over and run Democratic Underground. Rahm Emanual would have yet another tool to use his "sharp elbows" against liberals and progressives who don't follow his commands.

[ClarkUSA]

77. I'm a liberal/progressive & you sure as hell don't speak for me. You've been a Failer since Day 1.

In fact, polls show time and again that a huge majority of self-proclaimed liberals support President Obama while
only a tiny minority disapprove so it seems that all your anti-Obama rhetoric and attacks on Democratic legislative
efforts doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the real world.

[saracat]

79. Do liberal Democrats support the Stupak Amendement? Do liberal Democrats thinKchoice is expendable?

I didn't realize that. Silly me.

[ClarkUSA]

81. Spare me your hectoring tone... I support the final bill, which has yet to be decided on.

I also do not believe the perfect should be the enemy of the good.

[saracat]

82. So if the final bill has the Stupak Amendment in it, will you think it is a fair trade?

[ClarkUSA]

95. HCR was never meant to fund abortions in the first place because of the Hyde Amendment.

I don't know what your problem is except you appear to have hated anything and everything Obama since last year, but if you were intellectually honest, you'd admit that there is nothing different between the Stupak and Hyde Amendments.

[joeycola]

88. Do liberal Dems cave to women's reproductive rights? YES THEY CAN and DID!!

[ClarkUSA]

94. Um, HCR never included monies to fund abortions. Y'all as if the Hyde Amendment doesn't exist.

In your eagerness to use any and all excuses to express your Failer bitterness towards President Obama for daring (MEOW!) to win it all last year, you conveniently ignored the fact that Stupak's amendment does nothing more than apply the Hyde Amendment prohibiting federal funding of abortion. Reality-based liberals embrace the facts and want HCR to proceed.

[mmonk]

87. .

[Raine]

90. I don't like the bill

but how I feel doesn't make any difference so :shrug: whatever ... I won't be bashing Obama or the Democrats I worked hard to get him elected, I'll swallow my disappointment, it's not the first time. *sigh*

[backwoodsbob]

92. if everyone who hates this bill leaves DU

it will be kind of a lonely place :P

[michaz]

100. Why is it wrong to not support a bill that does nothing for certain people?

If a person really believes the bill is wrong for many reasons, in this case, abortions not being covered, costing certain people to pay when they can't afford to,and no public option. Why are we continuing to line the pockets of the insurance companies? Some people are adamant about these things, they are what is important to them. If they aren't as important to some, that does not mean that the people that they are important to should be told to "support it or get out." That is not how we should be treating someone who has solid beliefs. I am not sure that stating that this bill is the "start" and that we should lobby for other things to be put in it. There are no guarantees that the bill will be better. This can be changed in the Senate and it is possible that things could be added that make it worse. We could end up giving up more things just to get a "win".

[Truth2Tell]

102. Why don't you go to

Insurance Industry Shill Underground?

If all you have to offer are ad hom attacks on people who oppose this bill maybe it's you who don't belong here. We don't all have to agree with you all the time. And it takes a special kind of bloated ego to go around telling others they should get out.

[mucifer]

103. What if you emphansized the UNDERGROUND and not the democratic?

We should always have room to discuss these things.

[KansasVoter]

104. I am not like the GOP supporters. I don't support crap bills!

[scentopine]

105. LOL! Exactly why we need a new political party... a lesson in genetics

our democrat and republican leaders are a perfect example of dangerous mutations caused by incest and inbreeding. We need diversity in the gene pool.