Holy Smokes! Anyone see those two Iraqi veterans debate on the Newshour?

[rumguy]

One was head of veterans for Kerry in Pennsylvania - he's now a graduate student at University of Pittsburgh.

The other guy part of veterans for Bush in California.

The veteran for Kerry was incredibly powerful - he was sincere, honest, and specific. He eviscerated shrub's handling of the Iraq war and the war on terror. It was incredibly moving - I'm serious.

The Bush dolt had NOTHING. He resorted to the old canard saying everyone he knew thought he was a traitor for even shaking Kerry's hand. The Kerry vet came back and said we'll if Kerry's a traitor then so am I - following up that Kerry earned his right.

It was very moving. I'm going to go find a transcript. The Kerry vet was very sincere and specific - he knew his facts.

[faithnotgreed]

1. thanks for letting us know

[codegreen]

2. link to audio and transcript

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec04/veterans_9-16.html

[rumguy]

3. The guy's name is Jon Sotlz - here's what he said

There's real audio at the PBS site too. I'm serious this guy knew how to debate this issue and he did it with both emotions and specifics. He takes the shrub to task in a major way. Here's some of what he said.

"Well, I mean, the first thing we need to note here is that the president is a failed commander- in-chief. President Bush sent soldiers like me to die for weapons that we can't find.

If that doesn't prove that he's failed his last four years as president, frankly, I'm not sure what does. Sen. Kerry is the only one of the two candidates who has the credibility to bring allies to our side.

Our force levels in Iraq are so high that soldiers like myself, who spent, you know, an entire year... or some of them have spent entire years in Iraq, have come home for a year, and are now going back. 43 percent of Operation Iraqi Freedom Three is going to be guard and reserve forces.

This president has broken this military. And John Kerry's the only one of the two who's given us any alternatives or any possibility of hope. He's the one who supports increasing the size of the army by 40,000 soldiers, not President Bush.

He's the one who has the credibility to go back to the world, because let's be honest, the world isn't against the United States; they're against our president.

And I'll tell you what, going it alone hurt soldiers like me. Going it alone burdened our American army to a point where we've had to back draft people in our military.

I went to war because of this backdoor draft. Even though my time was up, I still went, and I did my duty. But the American public has a right to know the truth about this war.

We can talk all day long about what Sen. Kerry said at the National Guard today, but, you know what, he leveled with the national guardsmen. He didn't make any crazy attempts to link al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein. He leveled with the soldiers and said, "you know, you guys are fighting hard."

And I'm going to be honest with you, President Bush continues to mislead our country about the direction of our war. And he hasn't even... this is a guy... this is a president who will not even support mandatory funding for our health care.

It was a dark day for me when I had to return home from the war in Iraq, have some bad dreams, go to my veterans hospital only to find out that the same man who sent me to war has turned his back on me when I came home, and decided that he was going to close our veterans hospital here in Pittsburgh on Highland Drive. "

snip

"My experience on the ground was that, you know, we had a president who, prior to 9/11, his policies in Europe going against the Kyoto Accords, and deciding he wanted to build super-duper missile defense systems, had no credibility to build a coalition, spent our defense money on, you know, things like missile systems when we needed body armor and tanks.

My unit did not have body armor when we went to Iraq. When we got on the ground, I went from Kuwait to Baghdad in a convoy. Baghdad's very different from the southern part of the country where there's a British contingent.

Baghdad has lost... we've lost more American soldiers in Baghdad than any other place. That's why we're footing 90 percent of the bill for the war and 90 percent of the casualties.

And when we went to Baghdad, I heard my president tell our country that our mission was accomplished, and that same night I had two RPG's flung at my convoy and one of my trucks blown up. He clearly wasn't leveling with the American public. And then when I was in Baghdad, we started losing soldiers every day.

Every day we went out, there was combat. And when one of my soldiers died, I had to hear my commander-in-chief so eloquently entice my enemy with, "Bring it on," a deep sorrow day for me as an officer inside Iraq."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec04/veterans_9-16.html


He's turned his back on his veterans and he's led our country in the wrong direction in Iraq.

[faithnotgreed]

5. wow. i wish everyone could read this. thank you so much and

a tremendous thank you to these men & women in service. it takes courage all the way around and it takes special courage to speak of what you know, when it contradicts the words of your government and cic

[mbali]

15. He was spectacular

I loved it when he said, "If John Kerry was a traitor, then so am I."

And, this:

"The fact of the matter is this administration is not being truthful with the war in Iraq. They've continually tried to tie it to al-Qaida. We've committed 85 percent of our ground army. Soldiers like me have died for weapons we can't find.

"And they let Osama bin Laden run around in Afghanistan with zero of our ten military divisions not allocated to that. They failed us. They failed our soldiers. They failed our men and women in uniform.

"They won't support mandatory funding for veterans health care. They won't support, you know, giving Iraqi veterans more than a two-year claim against the VA system. We know that these soldiers are going to have problems with PTSD. They won't sign a real concurrent receipt. They're closing our veterans hospitals, and they've broken our army to a point where we had to stop loss people in past their time.

It is time for them to level with the American public. Until they level with the American public, we cannot win the war in Iraq. "

Beautiful

[Cha]

19. This is probably what got him involved..

"It was a dark day for me when I had to return home from the war in Iraq, have some bad dreams, go to my veterans hospital only to find out that the same man who sent me to war has turned his back on me when I came home, and decided that he was going to close our veterans hospital here in Pittsburgh on Highland Drive."

I'm bookmarkin' this! This is intensely eloquent..coming from someone on the ground!

[Moderator]

30. rumguy

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.



Thank you.


DU Moderator

[betterdeadthanred]

4. Yes I did

and the Kerry guy was great. Spoke from the heart about seeing his men blown up.

[rumguy]

7. yep - he saw it with his own eyes

and he conveyed it with powerful emotions - along with specific facts - this is the way to debate the war.

I like how he played off Kerry's speech today - saying that * hasn't levelled with the troops or with the American people about the situation over there - he even got in a shot at *'s 'bring it on' statement.

[johnnyrocket]

6. Anyone supporting Bush CAN'T be powerful, sincere...

honest or specific.

That's pretty much a given.

You can be petty, irrational, cagey, and mean, and support Bush, but not much else.

[Cha]

20. What I was thinking too, not in those exact words,

but very similiar!

Welcome to DU!

[buycitgo]

22. they can be, but they're probably John Hinckley's roommates

[buycitgo]

8. YES! I started a thread on it about two and a half hours ago

that SCUMbag of a Bush supporter

he needs to be horsewhipped

haven't read any responses here yet

Solz should be on TV EVERY DAY

[rumguy]

9. Yep honestly Solz did the best job of laying out the case against

*'s handling of Iraq war that I think I've ever heard....

[buycitgo]

11. amen........I missed the first part

THANKS FOR THE TRANSCRIPT

please email that to everbody in this galactic sector!

[buycitgo]

10. he also fought back TEARS several times

that was very compelling; very emotional

Rove would KILL to have somebody that could FAKE something like that

I hope somebody picks this up

it was right up there with Kristen Breitweiser's best; more powerful than when Richard Clarke turned to the audience and acknowledged to the victims' families that he had FAILED them

not to be missed

[rumguy]

12. yep it was raw and real - it wasn't spin

all the bush guy had was spin and puffery.

[buycitgo]

14. haaaa...I held back

did you ever hear Bryan Ferry's "Hard Rain....?"

pretty cool vibrato

if I can figure out a way I'll burn it from a tape I have

[rumguy]

17. never heard it

[no name no slogan]

36. I have it on CD and MP3 somewhere...

It's on "Brian Ferry & Roxy Music's 20 Greatest Hits", IIRC. I've got it someplace, I'll see if I can post it/make it available for you all to hear. PM me if you want it.

Agreed, BF does a good job on the song. A little mellodramatic and over the top in places, but after all it is Bryan Ferry, circa '73. ;)

Wow, if only every American voter could hear this guy. He mentioned the PTSD that so many of our vets will have, but he neglected to mention that we're dropping TONS of Depleted Uranium (DU) into some of the most fertile lands in Iraq.

Although the government won't acknowledge it (yet), DU munitions are believed to be linked to many forms of cancer and disease-- which all share symptoms of radiation poisoning. There are towns in the Balkans that have dangerously high levels of radiation in them, due to the conflicts in the 90s, and are uninhabitable. "Gulf War Syndrome" (which has killed over 10,000 US troops who served in Desert Storm since 1991) is believed to be caused by DU. And yet the VA and government will NOT acknowledge its existence.

We are effectively waging a low-level nuclear war against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan (as well as our own troops) with our continued use of depleted uranium on the battlefield. It's bad enough that we're wrecking their minds with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, but we're also destroying their bodies with exposure to DU.

Truly a disaster, no matter which way you look at it.

[rumguy]

32. kick

[Cha]

13. Score! Thanks, rumguy!

Truth wins out! the bush vet had to resort to "traitor" soundbites when in reality it is bush Who is the TRAITOR!

How Freakin' Ironic!

[buycitgo]

16. when it comes down to it, that's ALL they have

you know when it gets there, or when Cheney says to vote for them or DIE, they have NOTHING left

they're beyond desperate, despite the blowhardy bravado

it's whistling past their OWN graveyards

I really wonder how people like that live with themselves

do they ALL have personal barbers?

how can they LOOK at themselves every day when they shave?

[buycitgo]

18. oh....I used a take on that last line on Ann Coulter

on a radio callin show

[girl gone mad]

37. Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels. n/t

[MoonRiver]

21. Cool!

:kick:

[buycitgo]

25. I think I have it on audiotape.....not labelled, but it's somewhere,

I/m pretty sure..... should digitize it

[MoonRiver]

27. You should!

Please keep us informed!

[buycitgo]

28. see, that would take effort on my part

they were really pissed at me, for calling under false pretenses (I gave a puff question to fool screener, cause the host never takes my hostile calls anymore)

he let me stay on for awhile, arguing, though

I had a website at hand which delineated a slew of her LIES, of which he let me read quite a few

she said I didn't understand hyperbole; didn't have a sense of humor, like all liberals

I said she had a strange sense of humor, calling for the bombing of the NYTimes building, as well as that of Muslims, in order to make an example to me and my ilk

[Justice]

23. This is amazing.

Thank you.

[JI7]

24. shows the stupidity and ignorance of Bush and his supporters

[buycitgo]

26. don't forget arrogance

arrogant ignorance

hubris

it's what did in the best and the brightest

and these are the dullest and the meanest

they really deserve SO much bad karma

even the Vietnamese wouldn't be able to stand for this

[yardwork]

29. Veterans for Bush in California? That must be a lonely group

except in the San Diego area and some parts inland.

[imax2268]

31. Yes...

I saw it last night...

The Vet for Kerry started to tear up at one point...very moving...

He totally out-debated and destroyed that other Repug on there...!

[Morning Dew]

33. the Shrub guy was an idiot

I like how he reference the multinational division headed by the Poles - they have like, what, 200 troops there? Geesh!

[NoBorders]

34. Repub guy repeated a RW talking point/lie

Either prepped or just listenning to RW hate radio...

I'm sure I heard this same story before form another source, but unfortunately I can't remember exactly where, if a slightly different version:

snip-
"I spoke several weeks ago at a convention here in Southern California alongside a retired three-star navy admiral who had been held prisoner in North Vietnam and said that he personally was tortured because of the comments John Kerry made, and the feeling among those being held was John Kerry has left us behind, he's abandoned us."
snip-

I think actually b* sr. said something along these lines on a Lehrer interview during the RNC.

[Stephanie]

35. I just posted a new thread before I noticed this one

As soon as I posted a new thread on this I noticed yours back at the top
No matter - everyone needs to hear what this eloquent Vet had to say. I just posted a transcript and started to highlight the best lines, when I realized I was highlighting the WHOLE thing. He was terrific. Hope to see more of him.