Was she lying about the content or the documents?

[Red State Rebel]

Some people in here have steadfastly refused to believe that the CBS documents could be forged. To me, the evidence was too strong to ignore, but I laid low because of all of the flaming that was going on here about it.

Now that the secretary has come forward with her testimony, we have to decide is she telling the truth or is she lying. If she is telling the truth, we have to believe the memos were forged but the content is true. If we call her a liar about the memos being authentic, then is she a liar about the content?

Those of you who dismissed DUers out of hand or baited them into arguments because they doubted the authenticity of the documents need to perhaps think twice. Just because someone tries to take an unvarnished look at the evidence doesn't mean they are a traitor.

[meegbear]

1. Story? Link?

This isn't LBN.

[troublemaker]

2. re: "I laid low because of all of the flaming"

That's the problem in a nutshell. Intimidation by a vocal minority is a key step in the formation of an echo chamber. Only speaking your mind at the time can counter such intimidation.

We are all guilty to some degree.

[Red State Rebel]

9. That says it all in a nutshell....

Too many DUers take a side on an issue and proceed to batter anyone who disagrees within an inch of their membership. It does create an atmosphere of intimidation. Not mention what happens when some poor newbie makes the mistake of disagreeing. They are promptly shown the door carrying their flaming butt with them.

[Streetdoc270]

3. story

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/15/60II/main643768.shtml


The next question is where are all the Killian memo's that he kept locked away, and are these memos copies of those that someone elso typed? That would explain the secretaries story of the memos being correct for content but not the origional ones that she typed. Is it possable that someone (Killian's family) re-typed the memos? Either way we need to stop calling them forgeries and start calling them copies.

[Lex]

4. The secretary said *she* didn't type them, not that they were forgeries.

She said she typed memos similar to the ones Dan Rather was holding, but that the ones he had she herself didn't type.

How does that mean, ergo, that the ones Dan had were forgeries?

[Red State Rebel]

7. Her testimony was

that she believed they were forgeries because she didn't type them and she would have typed them in her position.

[gollygee]

14. She only knows what she generally did

She would have no way of knowing if her boss was making personal memos for his own files at home.

[Red State Rebel]

8. She said they were fake because she would have typed them

as part of her job. The said that she thinks someone saw her typed documents and wrote these from the originals. That means the ones Dan got were forgeries.

[gollygee]

13. Not necessarily

that is one possibility.

Another is that she typed her memos and he typed his own. Her copies are the property of the TANG and could be destroyed if the TANG so wished. He could have made his own personal memos as well and kept them at home. In which case she wouldn't have typed them and they wouldn't be forgeries.

[lapfog_1]

12. I think she went a little further than that

what she indicated is that there WERE such memos, that SHE typed
them (but not using the language used in these memos) and that they
covered the same subject matter (CYA). It is her belief that someone
read those memos, and then reconstructed them from memory, probably
someone with an army military background, instead of Air National
Guard.

I've been sort of sitting around wondering about this too.

I have three theories:

1) Karl Rove found out that the memos existed, knew that after the
not-so-swift boat vets did their number on Kerry, the Kerry campaign
would dig into the TANG records and expose Bush for the person he
really is... and so Karl decided to forge versions of the memos he
knows exist, with the idea that once released, they could be debunked
and therefore the content would never even be discussed.

or

2) Someone, well meaning, really did read the original memos, and
decided that re-creating them and giving them to CBS (along with
other materials) would help "sell" the story. CBS bought it
and now has a bit of egg on their face, BUT, the story is now out
there that * disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer.

or

3) The memos are real, and the secretary didn't type them. Killian
typed them himself, using a typewriter that did, indeed, have
the Times New Roman font and superscripted th, etc. Because of who
Bush was at the time, he decided to keep these thoughts strictly
to himself.


None of these sound all that good to me. I guess I like #2 most
of all, which is too bad. If you believe Rove did it, then why
would he put the MOST damaging info into the memo. If I was Rove,
I would have put info in there that is easily disproved (along
with the forgery, THAT would debunk the entire story, thus
protecting shrubya). And I don't like #3 because I'm pretty sure
that Killian would have had his secretary simply type the damn
things... as she apparently typed others which were just as
inflammatory.

I don't know, I simply hope that this, plus the Kitty Kelly book,
cause 3 percent of fundie freepers to decide that they shouldn't
vote this year. That would be enough.

[Red State Rebel]

15. I tend to believe your #2 Theory

It's a shame because whoever did that hurt us more than helped us.

[Qutzupalotl]

17. I believe it's #3, because it's too good to be a forgery.

It's completely consistent with typewriting and completely inconsistent with computer fonts. (It's not Times New Roman, by the way.)

I'm sorry if I have called "bullshit" on new posters a lot lately, but I am an expert in typography and can state definitively that these were not done on a computer. It's too good. You'd have to alter each letterform to simulate a typewriter as these do. You'd have to jiggle the baseline up and down, as these do. You'd have to find a typewriter font for the PC that matches, which I have not found. Some are close, but any font would give uniform letters--and each one is slightly different, like a typewriter makes. You'd have to know that you were okay using the "th" key on a 1973 document. You'd have to know the details that Killian knew. You'd have to be good at imitating his writing style and sentiments at the time. You'd have to find a way to get his signature on the document and copy it with an early 70's Xerox.

The simpler explanation is that these were backup CYA memos, signed by Killian.

[lapfog_1]

18. Yeah - That's where I was until I saw the interview

with Killian's former secretary. She was completely credible.
And what she said is that there WERE such memos typed, that
she typed them, but that the ones CBS has are NOT those memos.
Plus, as has been pointed out, in that era very few men in the
military, especially those in positions that warranted a secretary,
would even try to type there own stuff.

[Qutzupalotl]

24. But there is ZERO evidence of forgery

and she's not a document analyst. All she said was she didn't type them and doesn't know who did.

The signature is genuine, so forgery is looking very unlikely. If it's a forgery, it's better than anything I've seen. All the details are consistent and explainable.

I think Killian made an exception to not typing his own stuff because he was dealing with the son of a U.N. ambassador and was being asked to sugar coat.

[physaf]

28. thanks for your perspective

it always has seemed a bit too tight a package to be believed.

[Iceburg]

19. Rethink # 1 ... maybe the "most damaging info" was not in the CBS memos

maybe it was "scrubbed" and maybe Ms. Knox knows what is missing.

[pschoeb]

26. there is another possiblity

Everyone here is thinking new forgeries, but these could have been redone by Killian himself, I beleive he didn't retire until 1984. In 1978 Bush was running for Congress. It's possible that Killian decided he needed to rewrite these memos for some reason.

[struggle4progress]

35. Rove would try to copy the memos almost literally ...

... because if other genuine copies emerged he would want the reaction to be "Oh, we've seen these before and they have no credibility" rather than "Well, isn't that strange! I wonder what's going on?"

[blm]

5. Forged or retyped by another person, authorized or unauthorized?

The Niger documents that led us into war with Iraq were FORGED.

We do not yet know exactly whether these documents are copies or recreations.

[Nederland]

6. Neither

The Marian Knox told the truth on all issues.

She said that she thought the documents were fake but the content was true. Since that's what I've believed for several days now, I don't see the big deal. Although I stubbornly believed in the documents and CBS's assertions regarding them up till around Friday, by the weekend it seemed to me that there was just too much evidence that they were faked. Yes, a fairly large number of people around here insisted until the very end that the document's weren't faked (indeed, some may still cling to that opinion), but that's water under the bridge now. We need to move on and talk about this war, not one that happened 30 years ago.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. No because if the originals were destroyed at Bush's request

that is criminal...we already know he has a criminal capacity and believes he is above the law...GWB is like a serial criminal...he keeps escalating his capacity for criminal acts until he gets nailed...he went from defying his superior's orders, to drug use, drunk driving, insider trading, obstruction , to lying about the reasons for war...like any other serial offender, his crimes will keep increasing in intensity until he finally (due to his subconcious desire) gets caught.

(While I say this mostly tongue in cheek, I do believe it to be mostly a true analysis of his increasingly dangerous behavior) :D

[Nordic]

16. "like" a serial criminal?

Nothing "like" about it.

He's one of the biggest criminals the world has ever seen.

[physaf]

29. I still keep wondering why CBS

continues to maintain their position. it seems pretty untenable to keep on as they are now.

[struggle4progress]

34. I haven't seen anything that convinces me that CBS is completely ...

... wrong. There might be an interesting story here: I don't think it's as simple as "CBS really screwed up bigtime."

[Qutzupalotl]

37. What evidence?

I've been able to debunk everything about this I've seen.

The widths of the font are similar. So what? The letterforms are different and consistent with typewriters of the time. Knox even stated her typewriter had a "th" key. So the initial calls of forgery are way off base.

[rocktivity]

10. It is the secretary's THEORY that the memos are fake

She says she didn't type them, that she's never seen them before, and that she's typed documents for Killian with similar content. True or not, those are tangible FACTS. She also says that she believes the memos were re-recreated with deliberately altered language. That is her OPINION. While she might be right, it's only a theory, and it's not the only possible one.

It's just as possible that Killian created (or co-created) the memos himself, and kept them somewhere (or with someone) that the secretary and his family wouldn't know about. And what would his motive be? Making sure that the issue wouldn't come back to haunt him professionally!

:headbang:
rocknation

[ItsMyParty]

20. I think way back then Burkett saw the real and sat down at a

typewriter in the same office and recreated them for his (Burkett's) on file. He knew he couldn't take the originals. Remember he also saw things destroyed in a wastebasket. This is one way he could have his own file on things going on. The secretary admitted they had the Selectrics and that her typewriter had that raised 'th' option on it. Thus you have someone seeing the documents back then and know what Killian was thinking and typying them back then, too and keeping them all this time. To make them seem authentic he just stuck on the signatures and initials of Killian from other documents he had with the guys signature on them.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

21. I wasnt sure, began to be supcious, but Mrs Knox was the decider

...I think they are fakes, but her interview makes it an even more interesting story as to where CBS got the memos from, or who made them up..becuase Knox DID say that what was in the fakes is accurate info, corresponding to what she DID type up for Killian.

This is a fascinating situation, and I think CBS was snookered somehow, but the motive for the snookering is still unclear.

[cheshire]

22. Why do both have to be a lie or both the truth? She could be saying the

memos were not written but could and should have been. Your logic is a bit well ilogical.

[bigtree]

23. Her word is consistent with what we already know about Bush's

non-compliance with regulations and preferential treatment.

"The information in these memos is correct"

"It was General Staudt, not then Lt. Colonel Hodges , that was putting on the pressure to whitewash Bush. For instance he didnt take his flight examination or his physical. And the pilots had to take them by their birthdays. Once in a while there would be a reason why a pilot would miss these things because some of them were commercial pilots. But they had to make arrangements to take their exams. Once in a while they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the commander know and try to set up a date for a make-up. If they did not take that physical, they were off flying status until they did.”

“Bush seemed to be having a good time"

"I think it is plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by the rules that others did.”

"He had this campaign to take care of, and that's what he was going to do -- and that's what he did do.”

[struggle4progress]

25. Try a scenario like this:

Not all the files were clean, so Rove has the problem of what to do about some awkward memos. Solution: retype them and release them. As CBS program ends, blogs begin calling the memos obvious fakes (!), blaming Kerry for dirty tricks, and blaming CBS for dishonesty. Many problems solved simultaneously: the memo content is discredited, while Kerry and CBS are tarred.

I think the secretary could be telling the truth.

But I think Rove plays games like this. I'm really convinced that the * campaign leaked the Bush drunk-driving records to a small town Democratic hack back in 2004 in order to whine about "those nasty Dems" as the Repubs grabbed up the drunk driving vote.

[physaf]

30. the way that Rove plays these "games" can be pretty

scary. I keep hoping that we can counter all the dirty tricks somehow.

[partygirl]

27. She is either a liar or not.

If she is a liar, then we cannot trust anything she says--we can't pick and choose--if she is a liar she is untrustworthy.

If she is someone who tells the truth, then we accept all of what she says--we do not say that any part of it is a lie.

It is not defensible to say that sometimes she lies, sometimes she doesn't but that we know when she is honest and when she is a liar.

[struggle4progress]

33. Of course, honest people can also be mistaken. In my experience ...

... that happens rather frequently. And nobody in their right mind says, "So-and-so was mistaken about such-and-such so we can never again believe anything so-and-so says."

[EndElectoral]

31. What is the motive for the woman to lie?

[genius]

32. Someone else could have typed them.

[dave502d]

36. my take

Hears my take,Bush cleaner go after his records,now I thought I heard it was 1997
so Burkett make copy's on a computer.the cleaner got the real one's.Burkett send in the copy and the secretary know their not
the real one's but she knows what they say is right.

[gordianot]

38. Wait

This is probably going to one of those stories stranger than fiction. The targets of the whole inquiry are rich powerful people with vicious history: Nazi's, Secret Society's, CIA, drugs, mysterious deaths, dominating matriarch, blackmail, political intrigue and secret informers.

What is lowly secretary or for that matter Network News anchor to do?