Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I am too REVOLTED to think up a thread title

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:26 PM
Original message
I am too REVOLTED to think up a thread title
Hatch accuses Kerry of undermining U.S. troops

U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah said Tuesday that Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry is undermining U.S. troops by criticizing President Bush's policy on Iraq.

Hatch, ... said terrorists could be expected to do all they can in the coming months to topple Bush and get Kerry elected.

“We just have to hold firm, stand strong and quit bad-mouthing what's going on over there so that our young men and women who are serving don't lose their faith and heart,” Hatch said.

When asked if he believes that Kerry's challenge of the Bush administration's policy in Iraq amounted to not supporting soldiers, Hatch responded: “That's exactly what's happening here.


http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2418602
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. basically
he's saying we're not allowed to have an election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. those pricks are getting pretty desperate, eh?
Kerry's got 'em on the ropes!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iwantmycountryback Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Dear lord
This is still America right? 1st Amendment? Free speech?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sugarbleus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. May I say, your graphic is exceptional...lol
I WISH I had that on a bumper sticker or t-shirt.

In terms of Orrin Hatch, wellllll when I watch him it's as if I'm watching the head Honky at a Salem Witch burning. He's such a putrid little troll.

I've decided that if Bush and all his supporters love the Iraq war so damned much, I suggest they each mount one of those fancy "smart bombs" and ride the suckers right into the "war arena". :nuke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. I am revolted by Hatch, but your thread title could be
"$%^&$@ Hatch denies reality"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hush. Don't disturb the lambs
as we lead them to slaughter.

FUCK YOU ORRIN HATCH!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. The really scary part?
There is a part of me that is beginning to think that Repukes really believe what they say...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
derrald Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. This will lead to pure backfire
People are realllllly starting to wake up when they hear all this "The terrorists want Kerry to win" bullshit.

People are starting to say "You know what? The terrorists dont hate Bush, they hate America - either represent all of us or get out of the White House!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. Yeah, they are really pushing their luck here - desperation will
kill them again as usual. They are paranoid fools who forget the lessons of history. "There is nothing to fear, but fear itself" (shoot me if it's not exactly right).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Kerry campaign should do an ad with Hatch, Cheney and Hastert....
all of them saying terrorists want Kerry to win.

It would backfire BIG time on the GOP...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. AD BEGINS with Hatch statements, etc...
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 12:00 AM by deckerd
"The terrorists are working overtime to get Bush elected"

CUT TO KERRY:

"The Republicans have spent the past year telling us they know what the terrorists want and don't want. They say vote for me or the terrorists will win. They've had three years to figure out what the terrorists want, and all they can decide is to keep themselves in office? You know what? When it comes to the American right to vote -- when it comes to OUR vote -- OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER, I DON'T CARE what the terrorists want and don't want.
IN THE KERRY ADMINISTRATION, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET IT.

America will be stronger at home and respected abroad. We shall not go the way of cowed, cautious, authoritarian regimes that forego essential liberty for a false sense of security. As President, I would never cede entire cities to terrorists the way this administration has done. And I will never subject my vote to the whims of a madman who remains at large in Afghanistan. Let the Republicans in Congress be afraid of what the terrorists might think about your vote;
I AM NOT.

I'm John Kerry, and I approved this message."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasBushwhacker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. That's not what's making them lose faith
Of course, I know it's all politics for Hatch, but the troops lose faith when they have to buy their own helmets because the ones issued to them by the military won't protect them. They lose faith when they have to ask friends and family to send food and clothing because they aren't being provided enough by the military. They lose faith when their tours are extended at the last minute, after they've already shipped their personal items home. And most of all they lose faith because it's pretty damn clear that we never should have gone there in the first place, and they know that Bush has no intention of getting them out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes Orin, we must stop "bad-mouthing"
what's going on in Iraq, because God knows our soldiers won't notice all of those IED's and car bombs exploding around them if we just don't tell them. We must be cheerleaders for the quagmire! Siss BOOM bah!

Oh God, it makes me sick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. We surrender, forfeit, kneel down to Bush...
we should be ashamed......NOT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. We should just appoint Bush as king
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. Warren Hatch is a repuke mouthman who does not acre about ....
...the troops in Iraq, only that he and his party stay in power. Reality means nothing to these schmucks, only illusion and preserving their republican power base. These guys (repukes) also believe that U.S should have 14 permanent military bases in Iraq so that pretty much defines where they are coming from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. A year from now he will be bad-mouthing Pres.Kerry's policies
sure as shit

he wont even blink an eye, and nobody will call him on todays words
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Texas_Dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. IF this administration really were supporting the troops
Edited on Wed Sep-22-04 09:44 PM by Texas_Dem
they would have an exit strategy for Iraq. They would not have let terrorists flood into the country to kill and maim our solders. They would not have sent in troops, ill equipped and untrained in areas they are now being told to take responsibility.

If someone calls out their failed policy and strategy then it is undermining the troops. No sir, Scrub and co. you are incorrect. Trying to associate yourself with the heroism of our brave and loyal men and women in the military because you don't have any of those qualities of your own is Wrong.

Game over Scrub.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drscm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Better they lose "their faith and heart," Mr. Hatch,
Edited on Wed Sep-22-04 09:44 PM by drscm
than they lose their lives under the current b@stard's "policy." The reality is that they already lost the former.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. Edwards nailed it
Elizabeth, that is. Story from the Manchester Union Leader, a conservative paper in NH:

She said Republican candidates and the Republican National Committee have issued a string of outrageous statements that eat up news media time and distract voters from important election issues.

“The national press has been a little captivated by the Molotov cocktails being thrown by the Bush-Cheney campaign and the RNC,” she said.

She said examples are Vice President Dick Cheney’s remark that terrorists would be more likely to attack the United States “if we make the wrong choice” in the election, House Speaker Dennis Hastert’s statement over the weekend that al-Qaida would be more successful under Kerry and mailings in West Virginia that say Democrats want to ban the Bible. That last, she said, “is just a bald-faced lie.”
...
The media pick it up and then you can’t talk about health care, you can’t talk about defense and Iraq, you can’t talk about nuclear proliferation in Iran and North Korea.

Republicans, she said, “don’t want to talk about health care. They sure don’t want to talk about jobs. So they keep lobbing these bombs. Every time the furor dies down over the latest comment, there’s yet another example.”


So here they go again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. It's a fucking ELECTION, asshole (to Hatch)!
Aren't we SUPPOSED to discuss issues?! This is MY future! MY country! MINE! Get it?! It is what I am SUPPOSED to do! Discuss and analyze what is right and what is wrong. My job is NOT to shut up. My job is not to keep quiet. Isn't your Chimpy claiming how groovy "democracy and freedom" will be in Iraq? How's about we practice it HERE??!!

dammit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. Shades of Zell and Armitage
Edited on Wed Sep-22-04 09:55 PM by gordianot
This is a consistent message from these slime. It must be in their playbook and I bet we hear this in the debates.

They are trying to imply *ush is FDR. He deserves to be re-elected because we are at war. If anyone dares question the commander in chief they are risking American lives. I do not remember any other campaign making this assertion. If anything *ush is the anti-FDR.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cheshire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. That's a rerun of 1971, Orrin is lonely just like Kissinger. They brought
out all the retards. Any old hatefilled f**k that can talk is dragged up to spew more crap. Diarhea mouths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Didn't Hatch give away secrets after 9/11?
I don't remember the story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Secrets? Like what?
Anybody know?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I believe he leaked some intelligence info
electronic survelliance stuff. The CIA complained that it gave the terrorists information on our capabilities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemFromMem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
23. This all sounds familiar
Didn't Nixon run in '68 criticizing how the Democrats were handling the war in Vietnam and touting his secret plan to win it? How is that different?

Didn't Eisenhower criticize Truman's handling of Korea?

Guess these guys were about undermining our troops.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I could be wrong
I do not remember anyone saying Nixon was undermining our troops with his non existent secret plan. The final secret plan was Nixon and Kissinger had decided the war in Vietnam could not be won and Vietnamization would fail.

I think Bush is making a new argument. I remember reading Lincoln making a similar assertion during the Civil War will have to look that up.

While typing this I just heard Kissinger on Lou Dobbs, say we made some mistakes in starting this (war in Iraq) guess he might also undermining our troops.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. The similarity is the notion that trying to end a war "hurts troops"
when in fact it's about saving their -- and others' -- lives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I think the idea they are pushing
relates to emboldening the insurgents, by painting a negative view of the situation. The problem with that is, it is obvious Kerry is pushing for changes in tactics to win, he is not suggesting we pull out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LosinIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. pulling out doesn't work
learned that in health class
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
45. Hi DemFromMem!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemFromMem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Thanks!
Who knew this whole world existed. Now I have to figure out how to control this new addiction.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. It mystefies me when a UNITED STATES SENATOR
... believes that citizens should just shut the fuck up because we have a so-called war during an election. We are SUPPOSED to talk about it. It's our JOB as Americans! It is MY BUSINESS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
31. Remember, Hatch is working hard to get Arnold to the presidency...
He is heading up the work on a constitutional amendment to allow naturalized citizens to run for president.

Arnold has been a big donor to Hatch. It's all more Republican BS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
George W. Dunce Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. I saw this first class asshole
about six months ago saying how he thought Teresa Hinze Kerry wouldn't be such a great first lady because she doesn't sound like every other first lady...you know she sounds foreign. Then two weeks later he's on MSNBC talking about a new bill he introduced that would allow people not born in this country to be president (Gropeanater). The hypocrisy of these people is nauseating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
33. I guess Hagel, Lugar and McCain are undermining the troops as well.
Damn those cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
34. They are going to come back around to the un-patriotic slam
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
36. They did the same thing during Viet Nam
This whole Iraq clusterfuck is an exact fucking duplicate of that same idiocy, down to the 'turning the corner' body counts, Iraqization, stupid 'reasons' for the invasion, exactly the fucking same.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
37. Fuck you Orrin Hatch
RL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. And the horse you rode in on. Dubya keeps saying, "Don't change horses
in the middle of the stream." We say, "Only if you have any hope of ever getting to the other side!"

Dubya's horse lept into a swollen river, and it's gonna take a better horseman to get us out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
giant_robot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
39. Bleeech!
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

Just another reason not to vote for a single republican this November: they're all complicit by their party affiliation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
40. this doesn't scare me...
or kerry.

they've thrown everything at him and he's survived...they are the ones who are scared.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. good message
I think you might be on to something. ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
41. Bush is undermining Troop Strength
by getting more than a thousand of them KILLED!!!. We've lost approximately an entire battalion KIA and by some accounts, an entire Division has been wounded and is unable to return to duty.

Remember Bush in the 2000 debates saying that under Gore, two divisions weren't ready for combat duty? Pretty fucking ironic, ain't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
43. Proof that Mormons drink the Kool-Aid!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
44. Debates and elections are unpatriotic--Hatch says stop Democracy Now
And the Republican sheeple, "baaaoow"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. we should still ALL email Hatch.
Fill his mailbox. Remind him that 9/11 happened on BUSH'S watch. Or non-watch since he was oblivious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
47. Hatch statement from 1993, criticizing Clinton's handling of Somalia
TRAGEDY IN SOMALIA (Senate - October 07, 1993)

Mr. HATCH. Mr. President, this morning brought more grim news from Somalia. Another American has been killed, this time by a mortar attack on the airport at Mogadishu.

I mourn this loss, as well as the loss of the other Americans who have died and who have been injured in Somalia. It is a tragedy. What is worse is that it is a needless and a pointless tragedy.

As one who knows what it is like to lose his only brother in a war, having lived through that tragedy, my heart and my prayers go out to the families who have lost their loved ones.

This military operation has been badly bungled by the Clinton administration and by the United Nations.

Where did this mission go wrong? It did so last March when President Clinton shifted the mission of our forces in Somalia from the humanitarian mission of delivering food to prevent mass starvation to the much larger mission of establishing security in Somalia and nation building.

Let us be clear. President Bush deployed forces to Somalia on a humanitarian mission that most of us supported. The forces we sent were sized and configured for opening roads for the delivery of food in the absence of organized resistance. And our forces achieved that mission.

But President Clinton changed that mission. At the bidding of the United Nations, he shifted the mission to building up a new Somali Government. Even this week Secretary of State Christopher has said that we will not leave until a `secure environment has been established.' Yesterday, President Clinton said that American forces must stay to complete `the job of establishing security in Somalia.'

What the administration did not do--and this represents its major policy failure--is reconfigure our forces for the new mission. We cannot pacify Somalia, or even Mogadishu, with the 4,000 troops we have in Somalia. If the President is serious about his new nation-building mission--and I want to express deep reservations about its wisdom--he must ask Congress to send the vastly larger forces needed to achieve that mission.


It is a simple question of means and ends. If the President wills these ends, he had better will the means. Otherwise, he will pointlessly sacrifice American lives and, I might add, the mission will inevitably fail.

The mistake of shifting missions without changing the forces is at the root of the tragic loss of American lives in recent weeks. Yet, unbelievably, the administration still does not see its error.

It is now sending another 1,000 troops and a few armored vehicles. But this will not create a force sufficient to establish security in Somalia. That is nowhere near enough. The new deployments may enhance the security of American troops in Somalia--and that is important in and of itself--but the only mission our forces will be able to achieve is the mission of defending themselves.

I would like nothing more than to be able to arrest Aideed and punish him for the actions of his forces. If we can do that with a surgical strike, I am in favor of it. But I am under no illusions about the massive deployments of troops that will be needed to achieve the mission of stabilizing and establishing security in Somalia.

The administration's basic inability to match mission and forces is deeply disturbing. Even more disturbing are the reports that the administration turned down the requests by commanders in the field for reinforcements and equipment needed to defend themselves. I will not prejudge these decisions, but a serious congressional inquiry into this tragic matter is imperative.

Mr. President, it seems more and more that it is amateur hour in American foreign policy. We sacrifice the lives of our troops to patrol the streets of Mogadishu, but we impose an embargo to the United Nations that prohibits the victims of genocide in Bosnia even to buy arms to defend themselves. We support a political role for the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, but we hunt down General Aideed in Somalia. We use the United Nations for nation-building in Somalia, but we allow the United Nations to facilitate the brutal partition of a nation in Bosnia .

We are told that our policy is one of `assertive multilateralism.' In fact, it is incoherent multilateralism.

It is time that this administration ends its excessive, and dangerous, reliance on the United Nations as a vehicle for American foreign policy.

We must stop allowing the international bureaucrats at the United Nations to treat the United States as their personal 911 emergency number. We should participate with other U.N. military missions, but only when U.S. forces are under U.S. command, and only when the operation serves vital American interests. No such interest exists in the streets of Mogadishu. No more American troops should die there.

Mr. President, I add that no more American troops should be taken hostage. We should do everything in our power to remedy that situation.

Mr. President, I sincerely hope that the administration will come to its senses and return to the Bush plan in Somalia. Our mission is complete. Our forces should be withdrawn. The United Nations should be tasked with pursuing a political--not military--solution to the internal conflict in Somalia.

Most of all, the administration must learn the lesson that the United States should put its troops in harm's way only if our vital and critical interests are at stake and should send enough forces so that they can achieve their mission rapidly and with the least risk to American lives.

Mr. President, I yield the floor.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
48. Another Hatch Statement Criticizing Clinton's Handling of Military Ops.
From the Congressional Record, April 21, 1994:

The Serbs know what they want--that is, to conquer Bosnia . The Clinton administration has no idea of what it wants to do or how to do it. It has hesitated, vacillated, and equivocated. As a result, the United States and the world community have been outfoxed and outwitted at every turn.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. And another one
Senate, December 13, 1995:

Mr. HATCH. I thank you, Mr. President.

Many of us in this body believed we had to act. While we accepted that we could not make a persuasive case that U.S. troops needed to enforce or protect a vital interest, we believed that the world's remaining superpower had the power, the means, and the moral responsibility, to act.

We voted, again and again, to lift the immoral arms embargo on the young Bosnian state, which was largely unarmed, and was the target of the barbarians of `ethnic cleansing.'

This summer, we passed legislation, with a strong bipartisan 69 votes, to lift the embargo.

The Administration, proclaiming concern for the Bosnians, argued that lifting the arms embargo would cause the Serbs to attack the eastern enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica. For this grotesquely false reason--a reason bloodily refuted by the massacres in Srebrenica that occurred anyway--the Administration argued that we could not let the victims defend themselves. The Administration argued--again and again--that lifting the embargo would spread the war and would require the use of thousands of U.S. forces to extract the U.N. and allied forces. And so, the Administration argued that lifting the embargo was not an acceptable course of action.

Now, less than a month after the signing of the Dayton Accord, the Administration is deploying United States troops to Bosnia to implement the military annex of that accord.

There is a temporary truce in Bosnia. The killing has mostly stopped. The ethnic cleansing has not. And, the administration believes, most sincerely, that the deployment of the NATO Implementation Force, now known as IFOR, will, in the words of President Clinton, `help create a secure environment so that the people of Bosnia can return to their homes, vote in free elections, and begin to rebuild their lives.' The administration expects this to take approximately 1 year.

Mr. President, I respect the President's prerogative in foreign policy. I believe this is a principle we must respect if we are to convey the proper influence and power of this great Nation overseas. I supported this principle under previous Presidents, and I strongly objected when the Members of the opposing party in this body sought to frustrate Presidents Reagan and Bush.

I was disappointed when this body passed the resolution supporting President Bush's decision to deploy to Iraq by merely 52 votes. We had a clear vital interest at stake then. And, had we waited, we now know that our troops would have been subject to the weapons of mass destruction Saddam Hussein was on the verge of using.

Mr. President, I respect the principle of the President's prerogative in making foreign policy, but I have grave reservations--grave reservations--about the Bosnia policy on which the President is embarking.

But, I wish to make one point exceedingly clear: I believe that the Congress must show our support for the U.S. military. This Senator will always support American troops abroad.

I have recently learned that a Utah reserve unit will be among those troops deployed to this region, and several other Utah reservists have been put on alert. There is no way that this Senator will not do anything and everything to make sure that those troops have the backing they need in terms of equipment and materiel and moral support for what they do to serve our country's objectives.

But, appreciation and support for how well our troops carry out our policy does not mean we cannot question the policy itself as well as engage in some retrospective about U.S. policy.

I wish the President had taken a different approach on Bosnia 3 years ago. Candidate Clinton said he would lift the arms embargo. As I have said, I believe it was immoral to maintain an arms embargo against Bosnia while it was subjected to slaughter by a heavily armed Yugoslavia. I must say that, with his record, there is a credibility question when the President asserts it is the `right' thing to now send troops to Bosnia.

I believe that the Atlantic alliance is the most successful military alliance in the history of the world. The major democracies of the world held together throughout the cold war, and Europe remained secure. The world is still a dangerous place after the cold war, and I believe that NATO must remain relevant. I support the enlargement of the alliance, because I believe the alliance promotes political values as well as enforces security, and I wish to support the democracies of central Europe.

But NATO's credibility has suffered greatly during the Bosnia debacle. Tied by the dual key with the United Nations, the greatest military alliance was ineffective while genocide occurred. NATO stood by while cities and towns were shelled, while humanitarian convoys were turned back, while helicopters violated a no-fly zone. A NATO F-16 was shot out of the sky this summer by Serbs using Russian military hardware.

The Administration argues that NATO credibility is at stake. But I must ask: What happens if the I-For goes to Bosnia, and, after 1 year and the departure of I-For, the parties return to war? Will NATO be more credible for having gone to Bosnia with great fanfare, but having returned without success, or worse, with casualties we cannot justify?

This administration proclaims that this is a chance for peace in Bosnia. I do not doubt the President's sincerity. And I do not doubt that the administration is motivated by noble notions. I fear, however, that its ideals are immature.

Peace is not the absence of conflict, Mr. President. We will always have conflict. Peace, I believe, is the management of conflict, the management of conflict so that it does not escalate into violence and war.

And, when I look at the Dayton Accord, Mr. President, and the record of this administration, I fear that many issues about managing the conflict remain unaddressed.

The administration has spoken about a clear exit strategy, partly because we in the Congress have demanded it. But if we do not have a vision of how to manage the conflict after our mission expires, I see very little reason to go in at all. We need a post-exit strategy, Mr. President, and I've heard very little of one.

A post-exit strategy--and the success of the I-For mission--depends on a number of factors. I believe these include, but are not limited to: First, ensuring that the Bosnian Serbs do not pursue territorial gains beyond those they have won in this ignominious partition known as the Dayton Accord; second, completing the agreement between Croatia and Serbia over Eastern

Slavonia; third, building and maintaining a cooperative relationship between the Bosnians and the Croatians; and, most importantly, fourth, maintaining the political and military viability of the Bosnian state.

Elements within the Bosnian Serbs have been proclaiming against the Dayton Accord since the day they were signed. Demonstrations have been staged almost every day. Are we to proceed while these rogue elements threaten, with arms, to ignore the accord?

The administration tells us that it will rely on President Milosevic of Serbia to control these elements. President Milosevic has been very cooperative and effective, we are told.

President Milosevic, I recall, was the instigator of the war against Bosnia and has reneged on his promises on numerous occasions over the past 4 years. Perhaps Milosevic has converted--and I believe in conversion--but I have doubts about the sincerity of those who convert after a mild NATO bombing campaign.

Mr. President, I still do not know what the administration intends to do if our U.S. forces are subject to mortar attacks from rogue elements.

For example, if we're attacked from a populated area by rogue elements that move freely within it, how will we respond? With a phone call to Belgrade? How does President Clinton plan to hold President Milosevic accountable for keeping the Bosnian Serbs in line with the accord?

I am also greatly concerned about the agreement between Croatia and Serbia over eastern Slavonia. We should recall the brutal occupation of that Croatian territory. We should recall the pictures of the city of Vukovar, left a smoking rubble by the Serbs, complete with mass graves.

Since then the Serbian Army has occupied the area, cleansed it, and extracted its natural resources. The Croats and Serbs signed an agreement just before the Dayton Accord to return eastern Slavonia to Croatia. The agreement allows for 1 year to revert the territory to Croatia, but it has a 1 year extension clause, to be exercised by either party.

The implementation of the international force to monitor the territory is already stalling. I predict here that the Serbs will ask for that 1 year extension; and, 1 year from now, Eastern Slavonia will still be occupied by the forces of Belgrade.

It is a powder keg. If we do not ensure the peaceful transfer of that occupied territory, there will be a war within 2 years, and that war will spread to Bosnia, and the I-For mission, with its casualties, will have been for naught.

Mr. President, I am deeply concerned that the administration has not focused on this issue.

Mr. President, we need to do more to strengthen the ties begun with the Washington Agreement last year to build the Croat-Muslim relationship.

I have little expectation that the Serbian entity will ever participate in the unitary government of Bosnia-Hercegovina. But without the Croats and Muslims cooperating, Mr. President, we may end up participating in a three-way partition conducted by ethnic cleansing.

Since the beginning of this war, I have argued for a policy of lift-and-strike. Lift the arms embargo on Bosnia and Croatia, and allow them to defend themselves against Serbian aggression. Use air power to dissuade the aggressors while the victims arm themselves.

We saw a version of lift-and-strike this summer, when the Croatian Army, strong again, recaptured the Krajina and coordinated with the Bosnians to deliver military defeats to the Serbs. Our NATO forces went into the skies in August and September to force the Serbs to accept a choice: more military defeats or a negotiated settlement. Lift-and-strike worked, Mr. President, as we said it would.

Lift-and-strike was posited on the premise that a balance of power on the ground would effect a real peace, a peace based on the cessation of violence through deterrence.

Now that the President has decided to deploy the I-For, I believe that it is essential that we ensure that Bosnia is able to defend itself. That, Mr. President, is the only way that we can guarantee that the Bosnians shall not be subject to more ethnic cleansing, to more deadly attacks--unless we plan to keep I-For there forever.

Mr. President, if we are not absolutely dedicated to arming the Bosnian Government, we should be realistic enough to know that the war will reignite shortly after IFOR departs. And then, Mr. President, we'll ask, what was the point? For what did NATO expend its credibility? For what did America risk its sons and daughters? A decent interval to another war is not an acceptable answer, Mr. President.

So 5 years before the end of this bloody century, we debate again sending our troops to Europe. We didn't need to come to this point. The Dayton Accord is abstract, the realities on the ground brutal and complicated. We didn't need to come to this point.

But America has given its word, and credibility of that word, we are told, is at stake. Let me preface my final comments by saying that I am equally concerned about America's standing abroad and about maintaining our leadership in NATO.

But, our credibility is more threatened, I believe, by pursuing a mission with guaranteed casualties and uncertain goals, than it is by telling our allies now that we do not support this policy, this deployment, and that we will arm the Bosnians until they can defend themselves.

But if this policy will be implemented--and already our troops are arriving in Bosnia--we must try to improve it. If we are to effect any positive influence here, Mr. President, we must insist that we arm the Bosnian government so that when we leave, we are not a few steps ahead of the next conflagration.

Therefore, Mr. President, I support the Hutchison-Inhofe resolution opposing the President's decision to deploy, but strongly support the Dole-McCain resolution commending U.S. troops and setting conditions for the deployment which, I hope, will increase the possibility that this mission will not have been a waste of blood, treasure, and, yes, credibility.

Mr. President, I commend the majority leader for his statesmanship in recognizing that President Clinton is our President, that he does have a right to put these troops there, a constitutional right, and once they are there, we have an obligation, as patriots, to stand with them and to help them.

So I will support the Dole-McCain resolution, but I also support the Hutchison-Inhofe resolution as well.

Mr. President, this is a serious thing. I have been over that land. I have been over that territory. I have met with people on all sides of these issues. I have read the histories of the last 600 years of that area. And I have to tell you, I think putting our young people there is a tragic mistake. But once they are there, I am going to do everything in my power to support them.

Mr. President, I yield the floor.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Under the previous
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
50. A Basic History Lesson for Orrin "Goosestep" Hatch:
"There is more honor and magnanimity in correcting, than persevering in an error." --Thomas Jefferson: Batture at New Orleans, 1812.

"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both. We both value too much the freedom of opinion sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even where in opposition to ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.

"We are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Roscoe, 1820.

"Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error... They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only... If be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia

"By oft repeating an untruth, men come to believe it themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to John Melish, 1813

"It is of great importance to set a resolution not to be shaken, never to tell an untruth. There is no vice so mean, so pitiful, so contemptible; and he who permits himself to tell a lie once finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minimus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
51. we don't negotiate with terrorists
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Unless you are a Republican Presidential Candidate
Let's see October surprise 1980. (Bush 1 a key player) negotiation with terrorist probably treason

Ronald Reagan in Beirut. Capitulation with terrorist.

At least the media spinners for *ush 2 float the idea of releasing female detainees in Iraq before HE/THEY decide there may be a voter or more importantly a semi independent media backlash.

The saddest part is Republican Candidates seem to enjoy playing with American lives.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
52. Get revenge
Nominate Orrin for the Top Ten for this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ohio_dem_52186 Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
54. Here is the DOD Fairy Tail Verion of Iraq...
http://www.defendamerica.mil/IraqTimeLine.html

Hatch wants everybody to tell that story instead of the truth...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
56. Breaking: Not Praying Undermines Troop Morale
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bagnana Donating Member (858 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
58. Bush and Hatch remind me of that character in Aliens
When the marines has just had their assess kicked and 3/4 killed, and realized they had to wait 16 days for a search mission to come after them, the smarmy greedy character said "let's build a fire, sing some songs." That's exactly what Hatch and Bush are like. Ignore the fact these people will be DEAD and the country in ruins unless we do something. Just light a fire, sing some songs. They are despicable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
59. He's a theocratic fascist
BTW, what was Hatch saying when Clinton attacked Afghanistan in '98 after the embassy bombings?

Didn't he basically say it was "wag the dog"?

I also think he was very critical of Clinton during Kosovo.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
60. I saw this coming ... they'll regurgitate the same criticisms they had
over Vietnam :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 15th 2024, 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC