Conversation on the bus in St Louis this morning....Bush supporters

[ikojo]

I get on the bus every day at 5AM to go to work. There are usually around ten other people on the bus. This morning I got into a discussion (shouting match) with a right-winger and another guy (a black guy) who support Bush....They gave the following as their reasons:

White guy: Middle aged kind of frumpy
-Kerry is rich (this guy said he's richer than Bush)
-The Democrats have no integrity: when pressed he couldn't really answer this)
-The Democrats claim to speak for the worker when they really don't care for working people at all. The Republicans! care more for working people than the Dems. When I remarked that Bush had taken overtime pay away from people he repeated Rush's talking points that only a few people were affected...not that it was WRONG to do so but that since it only affected a few people.
-Kerry was only in the reserves and not the regular military during Viet Nam and had only spent one day in the hospital.
-Democrats divide people into classes. We are one country and not all these classes. Democrats tell people they can't do whatever they want and achieve whatever they set their minds to (even though more and more studies show that the class one is born into is the class one dies in...the myth of class mobility is just that, a myth.)
-Bush is smarter than people give him credit for. After all he went to Yale.
-Kerry is an idiot

Black guy: Middle aged (over 50) wears a uniform to work.
-Kerry is rich
-The US is at war and his nephew is in the military. The American people will not want to change commanders in chief during a war.
-Kerry has pulled out of Missouri.
-It is no problem that Bush has had everything handed to him because the job this guy currently has was handed to him (he drives a truck!)
He had visited relatives in the south (Mississippi) and saw nothing but Bush/Cheney 04 signs in the yards of big farms.
-Edwards has spent too much time in small towns. He doesn't care about the small towns. Why isn't Edwards coming to large cities?
-Kerry is an idiot. He definitely is not Bill Clinton.

Oy vey! These people take PUBLIC transportation and are supporting Bush! I tried to outshout the right-wing white guy but it sure was difficult. He refused to listen to reality. I then started saying, "you are on a BUS and you are voting for Bush!, it makes no sense. Thanks for voting against your class interests." To which he replied he has no class interests because there is no such thing as class in the US.

Oy vey iz mir! These two guys are exactly the kind of people the Dems should be reaching out to but clearly have not connected with these two.

There is supposedly a Kerry meeting at the Starbucks in Clayton this evening. I will attend and state my concerns to the people there. I think Democratic outreach to working people has been lacking as is seen by these folks.

Thankfully there were some on the bus who agreed with me. There was a 21 year old woman who tried to "talk" to the white right-winger but he was having nothing of it. She had seen F 9/11 and said it was the most enlightening movie she had seen. She has an understanding of social class in this country that's for sure.

Mods: I am cross posting this in the Missouri forum as well. I hope to elicit some comments from people all over the US. Please do not delete.

[Racenut20]

1. I would never hold a Kerry meeting in Starbucks

As a matter of fact, I have never been to one. But I plan to go to one right after I go to Walmart.
You won't get anywhere argueing with the white gentleman, but you could with the black man if the white one wasn't sitting there. The "class" discussion probably hit a raw nerve with both. You obviously were not conversing with triple didget iq's.

[LittleClarkie]

7. Starbucks sounds like a good idea

That's where I've met three Kerry supporters in amongst the Bushies here in the suburbs. They have a nice policy for allowing partners on the health insurance as long as you can prove you're a team (such as showing that you have a joint bank account) and not just a couple o guys who want to take advantage, or two gals for that matter.

There's a conservative gay guy who works there who says he may have to vote for Kerry because of Bush's stance on gay marriage. Yea.

[flpoljunkie]

13. The Rethugs have really honed the "class warfare" lie; Rush drums it in

day after day. Have any discussion of increasing the minimum wage, rolling back tax cuts from the uber rich, like Limbaugh and Cheney, and the Rethugs will immediately scream "class warfare." It is obviously effective with the uninformed and easily swayed.

The Rethugs have effectively sold this bill of goods to the very people who would benefit from increasing the minimum wage and rolling back the tax cuts for those making over $200,000.

These "flim-flam" artists need to be called out. We need a president who will tell the truth to the American people. John Kerry is that man.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Tom Frank makes the point in "What's the Matter with Kansas"...

...that the RW have crafted their class warfare message carefully to eliminate any connection with economic reality. This guy says the Dems have divided America by class?? The RepubliCONs have divided it by red and blue - cultural issues that ignore economic reality. It's how they maintain this ongoing political sleight-of-hand.

23.

[liberal N proud]

2. They have bought the propaganda the repugs have been dealing

for years.
It is tough to get past this.
Many debates I have with people they usually end up saying, I don't care, I am voting for bush anyway.

[ikojo]

5. That's exactly how this ended...the black guy got off the bus

first and he said, you vote your way, I'll vote my way. He even admitted that if Bush gets another four years there will probably be fewer people on the bus because of job loss! I think he's primarily concerned with his nephew who is in Iraq driving trucks.

[liberal_in_GA]

29. Why not remind the black guy

that Bush/Rethugs purposely disenfranchised thousands of black voters in 2000?

[bushisanidiot]

3. The fact that the Kerry meeting is at a Starbucks in Clayton supports

your point about dems not reaching out to the struggling working people in the St. Louis area. A Kerry meeting in South City somewhere would be good.. if they aren't meeting up there already.

[ikojo]

6. I agree with the point about meeting at a Starbucks in CLAYTON

(for those unfamiliar with St Louis, Clayton is the county seat for St Louis County and an upper middle class/wealthy suburb. Homes in this area can sell for a couple million dollars). A lot of people don't feel comfortable in Clayton, one because the jail is there and two because it has a rep for being snooty. I can understand why a black person may feel uncomfortable in Clayton that's for sure. It's pretty lilly white.

If I feel this is a group I can work with I will suggest meeting somewhere on the Delmar Loop if they insist upon staying in the central corridore (which is more convenient for many on public transit, which is always among my primary concerns since it's how I get around and also because I want to reach out to more people on the bus.)South Side would be an excellent way to reach out to working people.

[ClassWarrior]

23. The Dems should be meeting ALL of those places.

Our Meet-Ups have been in rich suburban coffeeshops AND in central city coffeeshops. There are people who can be won over in both places.

23.

[bluestateguy]

4. Then they get what they deserve

it will be chickens come home to roost for them, won't it, if they lose their overtime, Medicare goes broke and their kids are drafted. They will get what they deserve.

[George W. Dunce]

10. I love the way rethugs put jails in their counties

to make the population seem larger. Skew the representation numbers.

[nickinSTL]

20. Actually

As suprising as it is, Clayton is pretty darn liberal.

There were a TON of signs supporting Democrats running for the Congressional seat to replace Gephardt in that area.

St. Louis County as a whole probably leans Dem, but there are a lot of Repubs, particularly in West County, where a lot of the richest areas of the St. Louis area are.

[izzie]

8. I still think we have not gone down far enough yet.

It is like a drunk and we have not hit bottom yet. The people will get behind the Left when the Right just go to far. It was the same with the Right when they felt the Left went to far. Every so often we push the rotten guys out and start a-new. We seem to have to have them steal us blind before we vote out the guys in the middle of it.

[ikojo]

9. I don't think that even if there was an economic collapse on the

scale of the Depression of the 1930s, that people would rally to the left. The white guy on the bus has feelings similar to many Americans, they simply do not believe there is a class (caste) system in the United States. Until we are able to overcome this belief rallying people against the pugs, who play like they care about working people, will be difficult.

[izzie]

12. Well I am a white gal and I knew their is a class society

Maybe it is not caste but you are born in to a group and you usually stay their. I will say that in this country we have had many that have moved out but in all of Europe you can do that now.We have been better than most countries and are about the same as most Western European countries now. I still think we will go down more before people will get on the ball and think to change things on their own. It is just easy to let things ride as it is. Also to let others think for you. This free hand out seems to be in peoples head and you can not get it out where most of the free hand outs are going to corp. not the "Welfare queens" they so like to talk about. If you are working more hours to put shoes on your feet and bread on the table than you did 10 years ago you are going back wards. I my self am paying 56 cents more for the same bread as I did 6 months ago and SS is going to take more from me this year. I figure I am going back wards and my saving is not making that up.Course I am lucky I lived and worked in the time when I could save. Things look harder to me for you young people.

[giant_robot]

11. Don't waste your time

They drank the kool-aid, and considering other options is too much work for them. They might have to even *gasp* admit that they're wrong on some points.

Example: "Kerry was only in the reserves and not the regular military during Viet Nam and had only spent one day in the hospital."

How is spending one day in the hospital for a wound recieved in combat less honorable than not showing up at the hospital for a flight physical that your commander ordered you take?

I think you just have to accept that you can't have an intelligent dialogue with some people, and that they're the very same people who will support Dimson to the end.

[quaoar]

14. To anyone who says Bush is a great war leader

I just say one word -- Fallujah.

To anyone else who has obviously drank more than his/her fair share of Kool-Aid, I just ask them for their name and address so that after Kerry wins we can round him up with the rest of the right-wingers to be sent off to re-education camps. That actually shuts up a lot of people.

[MsTryska]

15. I'm not voting fro Kerry

because he's a rich white guy.

and nobody in mississipi is voting for him.

and he's a long-faced stupid head.

Bush is THEE best, THEE smartest, and he wins the war on muslamiacs!

i have to go work my 18 hour shift now.

bye-bye!

[deutsey]

16. Thomas Frank in "What's the Matter with Kansas"

provides a good analysis of why so many working class people vote against their economic interests.

He spends most of the book showing how the GOP uses the culture war and the "backlash mentality" from the '60s to get working people to vote for politicians who then go on to enact economic policies that benefit only the wealthy.

He also lays blame on the Democrats (especially the DLC) for abandoning working class interests in an effort to appeal to moneyed Republican moderates.

[baldguy]

17. Let me get this straight:

-A black guy

-Who's rides the bus to work

-Who drives a truck (non-unionized I'm sure)

-Who couldn't get THAT job other than through nepotism

-Is voting for bush

It that correct?

It's like a chicken voting for Col Sanders - and bringing a deep fryer w/ 11 herbs & spices to the party.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. Must only watch TV

His analysis of the 2 candidates is about skin deep.

[Minimus]

21. your Col Sanders analogy is hysterical! LOL

[Sparkle]

26. Can you believe a republican's father said that quote?

It was JC Watts' father that told him that. heehee!

[baldguy]

28. yeah, I don't have an original bone in my body

Thank god we have more intelligent people in this world to get all these wonderful quotes from!

[ikojo]

30. Not only does the black guy ride the bus to work

he also rents a room at some hotel/rooming house in St Louis.

I really suspect he is hearing stuff at work about the importance of voting pug. He said that the execs at work are being told to vote pug.

I also suspect he's concerned about his nephew who is in Iraq. Of course if he was truly concerned then he'd vote Kerry who at least says he wants to bring the troops home.

[zulchzulu]

19. They are unconvertible to reality

If you are too stupid to see past the Bush Lie Machine, you are basically brainwashed.

You should have just stopped the conversation.

[louis c]

24. Let me tell you an old story

I have a friend who said the same things about Nixon in 1972. I was a twenty year old McGovern supporter. I couldn't reason with him either. He had a son serving in Viet-Nam.

Every Memorial Day, I go with him to visit his son's grave, and no more words have needed to be said for over two decades.

[maxsolomon]

25. LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!

i won't listen to you, with your "truth", "logic" & "2 syllable words"!

there is a class war & you are losing, you dumb fucking BUS RIDER (i can say this as i rode the bus this morning. it was very pleasant). the winners are in the lexuses with the HOV-lane mannikins in the passenger seats.

[lastliberalintexas]

27. Will they be there in the morning?

Are they regulars on this bus route? If so, print out a couple of enlistment forms and have them ready for them tomorrow. Tell them it's time to put their money where their mouths are. If they support the little Hitler wannabe, then they should be wililng to be killed/maimed for his warS. And it's insufficient that the Black guy's son is in Iraq. He shouldn't only be willing to sacrifice his son's life, but his own as well.


http://www.dior.whs.mil/forms/DD0004.pdf

[ikojo]

31. Yes they are regulars and will be there in the morning.

I did say something about armchair warriors not being willing to enlist themselves or their children. I also said that enlistment forms are available on the Internet.

[Jack_Dawson]

32. Props to you Red Staters...

I don't know how you do it...the level of ignorance out there is jaw-dropping.

[spanone]

33. September 11, 2001 was a pretty good attack. Occured on Bush*watch

Remember bush* was in charge on that day. remember????