Arguing with Dominionists and other wingers

[eridani]

A very useful thread here.

http://us.denniskucinich.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6155
George Bush is a Moral Man

This is the most common justification that supporters give for supporting Bush, and at first blush it seems as though there is no way to argue against this. However, this idea that he is moral is based upon his supposedly having given his life to Jesus. If you are a Christian, or if you have guts and compassion, you can deflate this line of thinking very easily.

There are two problems you will run into when you talk with them. First, you can't defeat a theological argument with a political argument. God will always trump the founding fathers. Secondly, every liberal argument serves to strengthen and reinforce their views - in fact, their views depend upon, and get sustenance from liberalism the way that ticks depend on and get nourishment from mammalian hosts.

So what to do? You can do what a lot of liberals do and run the other direction as fast as you can. You can't criticize their philosophy, because they hear that as criticism of God Almighty, and visions of hellfire and damnation dance through their wee little heads. You can't espouse liberal principles to them, because the hear the voice of Satan speaking through you when you do that. I know, it sounds crazy, but hang in there with me.

Here is the secret - the seeds for the unravelling of their arguments reside within their arguments. For Dominionism to hang together the teachings of Jesus need to be turned upside down and be interpreted as precisely their opposites. (Dominionism is the theological bridge between Christianity and right wing politics.) This implies the whole theory of the anti-Christ, but that is another topic.

The contradictions within the Dominionist theology are profound and they represent the Achille's heal of the right wing Christian movement, but they are theological contradictions not political contradictions. No one goes after this Achille's heel, because all who are not "believers" steer clear of talking about theology at all.

Check it out -

--Jesus said that love is supreme. Dominionism says that hate is good and righteous.
--Jesus said to be meek and humble. Dominionism says be arrogant and powerful.
--Jesus said give up your possessions. Dominionism says amass wealth.
--Jesus said to have compassion. Dominionism says to be ruthless.
--Jesus said to forgive. Dominonism says to blame others.
--Jesus said to "render unto Caesar." Dominionism says to be Caesar.
--Jesus said take care of the poor and sick. Dominionism says they're on their own and deserve to suffer.

Amazing, yes?

If you take a sincere interest and ask people about their faith, and then just let them talk, they will talk themselves out of the insanity. Ask them about the contradictions I listed above, but not in a mocking or critical way. They are so busy defending their theology from the likes of you, that they have never taken a good look at it themselves.

This is the key to getting God out of the extremist political movement, and once we do that the neo-cons will be seen as the destructive and corrupt power and money grabbers - and anti-Christians - that they are.

[Pallas180]

1. Excellent . Thank you

.

[4morewars]

2. Have you tried this yet ?

If so, what were the results? Most,(if not all) of these zealots just don't want to hear it.

[eridani]

3. They don't, but I'm hoping it wil sink in

Plant the seeds, ya know?

[4morewars]

5. It's not a bad idea...

and it may work with rational people. One of the problems is that many of these so called christians believe that being born again is all they need. They really believe that their actions don't matter, because their lord and savior has chosen them for eternal reward. This belief system is called calvinism. In fact, many of these calvinists would like to speed up the rapture, so that they can be at the right hand of god sooner ! They also believe that the war is god's will, the beginning of the end, if you will. Here is a page that explains, and then refutes calvinism:

http://www.bible.ca/calvinism.htm

[Merlin]

4. Well said. To fight these demons of the apocalypse, we got to get religion

We can't just ignore the belief system of the vast majority of Americans. We've got to understand it, appreciate its strengths and mesh with them.

Before the abortion issue came along (as a wedge, courtesy of the Nixonites), most religious people were Democrats.

[Bongo Prophet]

6. Most i have spoken with

haven't a clue as to what dominionist or Xtian reconstruction even IS.
Even while espousing the latest from Robertson's 700 club (reformation/reconstructionist) or LeHaye (dominionist) they will look at you like you are trying to explain quantum physics to them. I can sometimes hear a faint 60 cycle hum...

[4morewars]

7. There you have it !

They have little or no clue about their OWN religion. I had a woman say this to me the other day, "I'm NOT a christian,I'm a BAPTIST"
How can I argue with THAT ?!

[MatrixEscape]

8. You certainly should know ...

You don't know what the religious counter-culture is up to? Shame on you ;) They are most likely the reason that things can seem so Topsy-turvy right now.

They have worked to change politics as you know it and insert themselves into every faction of the situation that you, the liberal democrat, has managed to avoid and ignore in your long, apathetic sleep! Oh, you thought democracy and freedom would go on without you, ey? Young? Old? You were totally WRONG in that assumption.

What has been going on, as you slept and dreamed peacefully, is that the whole thing has been changing without your awareness. While you bowed owt and thought, "Oh well, its only the lessor of two evils as a choice!" the Right was ready to act in your absence. And, oh boy, did they. They ran, from the promptings of the pulpit, for every office they could, from dog catcher to Senator ... and they won! And now, what, you are going to BITCH about being asleep and not noticing what was essential in retaining a Constitutional Democracy? Get with it, already.

The freepers heard the call, as believing freepers do. They took the time to take the offices, no matter how meager. Did you? Did your family? They won every board and commitee they could because the devoted pulpit preachers told them to. Now what are you complaining about. Is the system corrupt or are you to blame for you apathy now?

It is so simple that I can't believe it. All you have to do is wake up, wake a few other people up, and give up some DVD/Video Game time to your local process. Yes, it is that simple. Go run for something that you did not give any attention to, (you might get some ego boost here) and make it count. The right managed to do it, can you? Go run for gobabada, or whatever, and if you win, you can counter the dumbass freeper influence WHERE YOU LIVE. They did it, they proved it works, they worked it up to higher levels.

So, do you want to sit back, post here about how you hate what is going on, win your video game, enjoy your next DVD, or do you want to make a real, tangible comeback and change?

If you don't see the problem now as grass-roots, you don't understand what I have said so far. The grass-roots is what has made the modal change so predominant in your view while you were so preoccupied with everything else. From that point of view, you can only blame yourself and put the anger into proactive avenues or sit and crab about what is to come.

The revolution is not so distant and it is certainly not outside our reach and grasp. It is as close as your local politics. You only have to take them back and work your way up gradulally. Who will dedicate themselves to that? For how long? Do you need a religion, other than FREEDOM FOR ALL, as an incentive? We will see.

If you do not see this as a "working your way back up" issue, then I suggest you look more closely at the history behind where we are at now.

[4morewars]

9. What ...

the fuck are you talking about ?

[Minimus]

10. I work for a family of so. baptists

The father owns the business, his two sons "work" there, his wife does the books. They are very religious (or at least claim to be- some of there actions speak otherwise. They are always talking about Christianity and bush, how great he is, how awful Clinton was, how horrible abortion is, blah blah blah.

I found a way to counteract them by getting information from a couple of real fundie websites, the kind that think bush is satan and the best choise is the constitutional candidate.

Some examples:

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/bushrecord.html

this site has many articles of why bush is bad

and from

http://www.repentamerica.com/bushrevealed/

snip:
This website serves as notice to Christians across this nation that President George Bush over the past few years has compromised his "Christian faith" by promoting evil and openly supporting wickedness. It is our hope and prayer that he would Repent and turn from such blatant sin. He is not our friend and cannot be trusted.


Enter those sites at your own risk!
:crazy: :crazy:

[no_hypocrisy]

11. * told U.S. World & News Reports that he's never prayed for Saddam.

Now, THAT doesn't sound very Christian, does it? I think that answer reveals the true nature of *'s religion and political philosophy.

He's a phony, and to paraphrase Breakfast at Tiffany's, he's not even a "real" phony.

[catbert836]

12. Born-agains, predistination

Both believe only faith in God can save them. So great people like Gandhi would not go to heaven. Also, it dosn't matter if your the most Christian person in the world, if you are pro-abortion you go to hell all the same. If your anti-abortion, you go to heaven no matter how many poor people you killed.

[CarolynEC]

13. Maybe some publisher out there will start printing bibles....

... with the Sermon on the Mount included. Wouldn't that be something? Because those insightful, easy-to-understand pages appear to be missing from the bibles of every "Christian" shooting his or her mouth off on TV and radio these days.