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Lord help me, i'm trying to fight a freeper on my local msg board

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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:45 AM
Original message
Lord help me, i'm trying to fight a freeper on my local msg board
he claims Kerry missed 76% of the Senate intelligence meetings from 1993 to 2000

debunk please? or where should I look?

:wtf:
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mailman82 Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. mailman82
While true he did not a senate Intel committee meeting! Those were public meetings.
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Did he provide you with a link...
to a credible source? While I don't have the data on this, I would just like to remind you that if a freeper said it, there's a 99.99% chance that it's an outright lie, or a very twisted version of the truth. For instance, what is the average attendance for Senate committees?

The freep is the one who needs to provide the evidence to back up this claim. This is how the 'pubs work. They'll make an accusation, and instead of backing it up, they'll try to tell you the ball is in your court and you have to prove what they said isn't true. Do not fall for this bullshit.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. The burden's on him
You shouldn't have to look for anything. If he makes a claim, ask him to substantiate it.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. He missed a lot of the public meetings
Had to be off fighting his own war on terror. The secret meetings we don't know about-even the attendees list is secret.
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kerryin2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. He didn't have private meetings to get updates??
Also ask him how many counter terrorism meetings Cheney had before 9-11..
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. Bush missed 100% of the actual intelligence
Got it wrong every time.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ding! We have a winner!
Better to miss an intelligence meeting than to miss the actual intelligence.

You know, like that trivial little "OSAMA BIN LADEN DETERMINED TO ATTACK UNITED STATES" paper...
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. Standard two word response to any Freeper
Prove it.

But move on to the larger point: Is Freeper saying that IF John Kerry had been attending public Senate intelligence meetings between 1993 and 2000, then . . . well, what exactly? The terrorists who planned to disrupt the millennium celebrations were totally thwarted, thanks to -- oh yeah, Bill Clinton, who took terrorism seriously.

And who was president when the World Trade Center towers were felled, and we sustained the first ever enemy attack on the Pentagon? Oh yeah, Mr. Short Attention Span himself, who couldn't be bothered to come off his month long vacation (after a grueling seven months in office) even when he had a document sitting on his desk titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside U.S."

That about cover it? Next subject, please.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. Tell him you don't believe him.
It's on him to prove it.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. here's what I answered..
Selective math and sketchy methods:
The Bush-Cheney Campaign is using misleading numbers and cannot pretend to have the facts. For example from 1993-1998 the Select Intelligence Committee held more than 329 meetings, hearings and markups. Just 65 of these were open meetings.

Bush uses less then 20% of the meetings to come up with a bogus figure.

John Kerry served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for 8 years. Kerry joined the Committee in early 1993 and served until early 2001. Among the areas closely investigated by John Kerry and the Intelligence Committee include global terrorism, world wide threats to U.S. national security, international espionage, weapons of mass destruction, drug trafficking, arms trafficking and nuclear security. John Kerry is also the former Chairman of the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and International Operations and conducted several high profile Intelligence and International Security investigations. Additionally, Kerry is the author of the 1997 book ‘The New War’ which addressed the challenges of global terrorism and has served on the Foreign Relations Committee for more than eighteen years. One observer of Kerry wrote that, “Kerry plunged himself into the study of international crime and its implications for America.” In fact, the Kerry Commission uncovered the drug smuggling and arms trading in the Oliver North, Iran Contra scandal. “As chairman and then ranking Democrat on the Senate subcommittee on terrorism, narcotics, and international operations, John Kerry has been out front in pushing three presidential administrations to take seriously what is going on in the international underworld.” Cleveland Plain Dealer, 11/6/96, 7/20/97; Boston Globe 6/28/97; The Guardian, 6/19/96
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ooooh, Facts!
I like it. Facts are like "Freeper-B-Gone."
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Good answer!!!
:toast:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Because you mentioned "A New War"
And I took the time to type the freakin' thing, here are some of my favorite quotes from that book. The second set is especially chilling because it sounds like Kerry is talking about 9/11, even though he wrote this stuff in 1997.

Anyone who thinks he's going to be soft on terrorism just ain't paying attention.

SELECTED QUOTES FROM “A NEW WAR” by John Kerry

My investigation of BCCI, a $23 billion international financial institution, played a key role in shutting down the bank and exposing how dirty money and corruption flowed together in North American and European capitals, as well as in the developing world. The BCCI investicgation took me deeper into the clandestine world of money launderers, drug traffickers, arms merchants, terrorists, and covert nuclear programs. During the dozens of hearings I held, I was able to expose a lot about this hidden world. But I felt that in the day-to-day headlines, some of the scope of what I was seeing had yet to be adequately described.
------------------------
We were not sufficiently prepared for the first real wave of terror that broke out in America and we are not yet prepared for the next. Along with crime, commerce, and communication, terror is going global.
The terrorists of the late ‘90s and early twenty-first century will use more sophisticated means and thus pose a more virulent threat to the health of democratic societies by increasingly forcing them to trade liberty for security.
Though this country will continue to face danger from religious extremeists, homegrown anarchists, and perennial lone-bomber types, they are all in some sense “old news.” The terrorists of tomorrow will be better armed and organized. It will take only one mega-terrorist event in any of the great cities of the world to change the world in a single day. As we shall see, that event could be nuclear or could just as easily occur on the Internet, but whether our sense of secure well-being ends with a bang or a whimper will not be the cause of debate.
------------------------
On the clipper chip:
As Wired, a magaziine for aficionados of technology, has declared, “Trusting the government with your privacy is like having a Peeping Tom install your window blinds.” But one would be hard-pressed to find a single grieving relative of those killed in the bombings of the World Trade Center in New York or the federal building in Oklahoma City who would not have gladly sacrificed a measure of personal privacy if it could have saved a loved one.
------------------------
Illegals poison the political admosphere for legal immigrants. In the United States, they have been responsible for increasingly punitive laws against all immigrants, laws that would deny immigrant children schooling and health care. We must continue to refuse to punish those who come to the United States legally, and separate them from those who come in uninvited and in violation of our laws. But we must also be much more tough-minded regarding the illegals. Although children, whoever they are, must be educated, fed, and housed while they are here, if illegal they must all be sent back, along with the rest of their families, to the land from which they have come; that is the only means of protecting the legal immigration system and our law itself.
------------------------
Had I written this book even four years ago, my warning about crime and terrorism might have been dismissed as a jeremiad. Unfortunately, the bombings of the World Trade Center, the federal building in Oklahoma City, and the complex in Dhahran have provided me with examples I wish I did not have so readily at hand.
------------------------
Just as it is abundantly clear that America cannot go it alone against global crime and terrorism, it is equally obvious that only America has the power and prestige to champion that cause, forge the alliances, lead the crusade.
We’ve done it twice before -- in World War II and in the fifty-year struggle against communism. and we must do it a third time, and for the same reasons as before, so that those who would impose their will through deception and violence are vanquished or defanged.
------------------------
Democracies are notoriously slow to rouse. But one roused, their ability to cooperate with one another, to unify their will, intelligence, and resources, can never be rivaled by that of their enemies, wheter political or criminal, for their enemies’ alliances are always founded on fear, compulsion, and temporary advantage. But the war we are fighting now is unlike wars of the past. Nondemocracies must join with us in this effort.
The most serious task of all, however, remains ours alone. The reason is clear. The greatest deficit in our fight against crime is our demand for drugs. Almost 70 percent of all our crime is drug related. Put simply: We are not losing the war on drugs -- we have yet to fight a war!
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. it was a good book wasn't it? i bought it back in 2002 right after
I emailed kerry's senate office to run for prez
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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. Bush was strutting around his "ranch" pretending to be
a cowboy or Ronald Regan when they TOLD him that AQ would strike in the US and HOW they would strike in the US - and he did nothing. What was he waiting for, Mohammed Atta's Travelocity itinerary?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
13. Gee, whiz, since he wasn't ON that committee
it's a miracle he got to any of the meetings!

Kerry was on the Foreign Relations Committee. Tell your freeper adversary that if he wants to flaunt his ignorance for everyone to see, it's his choice, but he's going to end up with a reputation nobody wants.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. wow, I think I'm winning,,,,,, no responses LOL
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. Check out the D-Bunker on the Kerry site.
When this stupid ass claim first came out they had explained it within hours. It's a great source.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. On the other hand, a Bush intelligence meeting
is six neurons getting together to vote on which way is up.
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mccormack98 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. Um ... ban him.
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
18. who cares
your mind is made up and his is made up. Stop wasting time IMO. You can't win
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. The reply wouldn't be for the freeper's benefit
It would be for the benefit of those reading who are still on the fence, no?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. it's not him, it's the other people who read the local boards
the kerry campaign has asked us to fight the Bush noise machine on local boards

:shrug:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
19. As someone told me, Kerry was on several committees
so he couldn't be in several places at once.

Basically what they said is true according to factcheck, but I'd counter with Bush being on vacation after terror warnings.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=241

"Al Qaida determined to strike US" and Bush goes on vacation.

Check my google inquiry for more:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb&q=bush+went+on+vacation+after+terror+warnings&btnG=Search

:hi:
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jackieforthedems Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. If That's The Worst Kerry Has Done
Edited on Sun Sep-26-04 11:45 AM by jackieforthedems
I completely forgive him. Tell him about this today: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread49971/pg1 and http://blatanttruth.org/draft.php and http://www.greaterthings.com/News/UNVehicles/#photos and http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=160 and http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/index.php?id=24 and then direct him over to the front page of PropagandaMatrix.com - there is a good story on the front page about how Bush's grandfather, Prescott helped in the financing of Hitler's agenda in WW II. Tell him sisterjforteri said "hi", too - they hate me over there. Lol.
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HEIL PRESIDENT GOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
22. Tell him
Bush missed at least 76% of his college classes, national guard service, and presidency up until 9/11.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
23. Whenever this happens, DEMAND a link to a reputable source
Don't demand it in a way that says he's full of it (there's a chance you could be wrong), but be firm and tell him that he has zero credibility if he's not prepared to back up questionable statements.

I do this all the time, and 90% of the time the thread ends right there.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. I've looked over the newspaper's blog and
...what a bunch of assholes. Is this one of Scaife's rags?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. they were bought a couple years ago by Gannett n/t
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
28. Kerry missed the PUBLIC Senate "Intelligence" Committee meetings
How much intelligence is discussed at public meetings? NONE!
Public meetings for Tom DeLay's congress are merely dog & pony shows designed to give more tv time to Republicans. They aren't held to accomplish anything important. Missing those public "Intelligence" meetings is like missing a RNC meeting.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. they are linking this thread now on every post I make over there
lol
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