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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 04:50 PM
Original message
[EDITED] New Observations Confirm that the Memos Were Typed
Edited on Mon Sep-27-04 05:15 PM by deckerd
...but by whom? Any forger would have had to have access to vintage typewriter fonts / typewriters.

More likely is the new theory which I have posited below, that the docs are genuine and the
letterhead was forged in an effort to de-authenticate the memos. This is an open question
for forensic analysts to prove, not idle speculation!

Also open to forensic analysis is the IBM Executive font, DELEGATE.

Why has nobody here pursued this? Five new pieces of evidence:

1.

In the "It's Elementary" thread, a link was posted to a new typographical study by a forensic researcher. This study, unlike challenges to the document's authenticity, was conducted over a sufficient period (over the past two weeks) to come to a forensically valid conclusion based upon sound scientific methods. The abstract also confirms that Howard Kurtz of the Washington Post issued false information about the content of the memos (see excerpt below):

Forensic Researcher Determines Evidence Memos Were Typed, Even if Fake; Study Questions
Washington Post Inference From Typography Used By Howard Kurtz to Support Forgery Conclusion

2.
Right-wing bloggers have raised $10,000 to reward anybody who can reproduce the memos exactly on a typewriter of ANG vintage.

The following experiment was done on a computer using a vintage "TYPEWRITER (CONDENSED)" proportional font unavailable on MS Word.


Near-Exact Reproduction using Font Face "Typewriter (Condensed)"


Burkett would NOT have known how to download this font; nor would I.

Note that the spacing of the font is very similar to that of Times New Roman, hence explaining once and for all the surface similarity of the CBS Memos to the Buckhead MS Word reproduction:

This is a NON-MS WORD, VINTAGE FONT whose proportions are near exactly the same as the letterspacing of "Times New Roman (Microsoft)", a computer-based font.

This document disproves the "Occam's Razor" line of argument which is based upon the "strange similarity" in letterspacing between the memos and MS Word, a GUI word processor created to emulate the product of a traditional desktop publishing device such as the Selectric Composer.

3.

This reproduction, while MORE exact than that of MS Word, remains inexact, in part because the font face is imperceptibly off, although clearly in the same family of Typewriter fonts as the font used in the document.

And in part because it WAS done on a word processor, which is unable to duplicate the jumpy letters best exemplified in "the word "Interceptor" at top.

Over a week ago, a blogger named "Retired_Military" stated that he was an administrative officer in the services at the time, and that, in his professional opinion the documents WERE typed by Killian himself, a hunt and peck typist, in an effort not to implicate Knox in a CYA message, which was a common and recommended strategy in office politics at the time, using the following:

An IBM EXECUTIVE, using the font face "DELEGATE".

Retired_Military was near-convinced of this based on being in a similar position in the services at the time, using similar technology.

Assuming "Delegate" is an early proportional variant of the Typewriter family of fonts, which includes the standard "Courier" at one end of the development spectrum (monospaced, flag serifs, flat characters), and the proportional "Typewriter (Condensed)" (proportional, flag serifs, curly characters) at the other:

This may explain why "Typewriter (Condensed)" is near-perfect but inexact --
since it would post-date Delegate in the hystory of IBM development of proportional fonts (all of which development was done for the TYPESETTING PROFESSION, mind you -- prior to the development of the Windows family of Programs and other physical-desktop emulator GUIs which allowed proportional fonts to be used for the first time).

It remains to be seen whether the docs were produced in this manner;
I suggest it would be a good investment on the part of Mr. Hailey and/or on the part of DU given the presence of the $10,000 offer, and I suggest someone purchase a vintage Executive.

Too many right wingers are assuming that these machines are no longer used and no longer exist.

4.

The image above demonstrates that the letterhead WERE NOT exactly centered, an artifact which, Mr. Greenberg and Mr. Kurtz correctly stated, would constitute proof that the documents were forged on a computer.

I strongly encourage DU researchers to look at the original CBS memos and also look at the blog reports to determine what margins Buckhead, Greenberg et al. were able to discover that provide proof of centering in a computer, given the absence of scale or left-right page delimitations.

They may have simply cut and pasted (overlaid) the centered portion of text, irrespective of its positioning relative to the body text in MS Word. A common error amongst those inexperienced in manipulating formatted text.

Any evidence of "true centering" by a Word Processor is serious and proves that the docs were, at minimum, tampered with on a computer.

Especially considering that the docs were not written by an experienced typist. Knox's testimony, the exactitude of the spelling coupled with the grammatical and punctuation mistakes all point to a hunt-and-peck typist.

(I should know; I am one. And I do not make spelling errors as a result; but frequently other sorts of errors (punctuation and grammar) which I would not know how to correct.)

If any evidence of "true" centering can be found in ANY of the four memos, it is imperative that the researcher (Mr. Hailey or here on DU)
take the next step and confirm that the centered text was done on the same machine as the body text. We need to verify that the POINT SIZE, FONT and BOLDNESS (strike firmness) is the same in the letterhead, as it is in the body of the text. To my eyes, there appear to be subtle differences.

Why, you ask? I do not have the cite for this, but it is my distinct impression based on one of the memos (possibly the one used as evidence of centering) that the point size and/or boldness (strike firmness?) of the letterhead was different from the body of the text in that memo.

This leads me to conclude (a) that the letterheads were done up in a batch by an experienced secretary skilled at centering, a common secretarial approach, possibly at Killian's request; or else (b) which I regard as more likely: that Fake Letterheads were pasted on top of the original document.

This would be the simplest explanation of any differences in technique between the letterhead and the body text for the following reasons:

First, because Killian would have known it was not standard form, especially in the case of the memos to Bush; and would therefore have had no reason to take the trouble, to make the measurements required, and to execute the incorrect letterhead in such a precise fashion.

Second, their style does not match that which any secretary in the office would have used for a letterhead, nor Killian, since he was insufficiently skilled to produce correct centering on a typewriter.

Third, my distinct impression was that the point sizes, font, or possibly just the boldness/strike width of the letters in the letterhead, were subtly different from the body text in at least one of the memos.

Lastly, the only thing blatantly inaccurate about the style and content
of the memos to suggest forgery, is the letterhead. Killian would have
been familiar with the proper ANG letter format at the top of the page.

Other content objections are answerable:

* The reference to "Lt." is a minor stylistic or more likely punctuation error, since it is done at random; the reference to "billets" is corroborated by the presence of "billeting offices" in the Air National Guard, suggesting the terminology has evolved, as have the rules for, e.g. eligibility for the AFOUA ribbon which some have incorrectly cited against Bush based on unambiguous current regs.

* The reference to Staudt raises no eyebrows amongst anyone familiar
with retired military responsibilities and careers. (Retired_Military
addresses this in his blog posts, which I have unfortunately no link;
he was called upon years after retirement to assist an officer's
promotion by rescuing the officer's review records from Retired_Mil's
personal or P-file, the originals of which had been lost in the mail.)

* Inconsistent use of a space between the "th" may have been done in an unsuccessful effort to employ the "th" key by pressing instead of the key, followed by abortion of the attempt and typing of the letters "t" and "h" long-hand.

However, I must point out that this punctuation error (space before t and an h) is ALSO consistent with and indicative of a forger recreating the documents on a word processor using a vintage, Typewriter font, and attempting to avoid macros entirely.

If so, then the presence of the superscript "th" in typewriter font was simply an error (intentional or otherwise) on the part of the forger.

This is the simplest explanation for this particular stylistic artifact, although generation of just such a letter was perfectly feasible on Killian's part; the superscript was, after all, available in the same font package used by the presumptive forger, being identical to the font used by the typewriters it was taken from.

This point is often overlooked.

In short, given evidence that most of the memos were typed on a typewriter, the stylistic and (to my eye) mechanical differences in the point size and/or boldness of the letterhead vis-a-vis the rest of the document suggests that the memos were NOT forged, but instead were tampered with.

The letterheads may be the only part of the memos that were not, in fact, typed by Killian. If so, the motive for selective tampering is simple:

Because the original letterheads would have contained information verifying the documents.

This is a serious determination that needs to be looked into, because
it tells us, assuming the documents were forged, HOW they were forged,
and if any part of the memos is genuine. This is a forensic question.

5.

Additional examples of period tyewritten documents such as the following illustrates, for the uninformed, why the experts relied upon by the Washington Post are insufficiently informed about typesetting to be relied upon by ANY credible journalist.

It depicts an example of "genuine" superscript in which Mr. Hailey, decades ago, used a common letter "o" as a degree symbol, placing it a half-step above the line of text:


Letter "o" Manually Superscripted

First, let me quote Mr. Hailey:

"Figure 4. Washington Post analysis of criticisms advanced by “document experts.” Their criticism is that the type is proportional, the superscript “th” is consistent with word processing software and not consistent with mechanical technologies of the time. Some experts are certain that the font used is Times New Roman, probably unavailable on typewriters at the time, and certainly not used by the military at the time.

The critical arguments of the above document experts are both spurious and uninformed."

To be precise, the infamous Mr. Greenberg (http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm)
stated as the foundation for the whole forgery angle that the special character "th", despite being a special character widely used in the military and (among thousands of other special characters) in science, was not "true superscript" unless placed above the top line of the text. This counter-example (in which the letter "o" is used as a degree symbol), illustrates how Mr. Greenberg, Mr. Dobbs and Mr. Kurtz impeached their own credibility by their reliance on a credulous assertion that superscript positioning was a function inherent in the typewriting mechanism.

I have e-mailed the Post Ombudsman repeatedly on this, asking for
a correction on this and the absence of (pseudo-)"kerning" (cited
by Greenberg and Kurtz et al. as proof of MS Word) in hi-res
images provided by CBS. No correction has been issued to date.

6.

MacDougald (an associate of GOP Operative Roger Stone) confirms he is Buckhead, refuses to answer questions about the provenance of his findings (published 20 minutes after the docs were made public) that the documents were forged:

DU Thread link
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. great
so when is the left-wing media reporting this?
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. the content is the important part and it is true - that is all that matter
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. that's all that SHOULD matter
Unfortunately, Rove, through his smoke and mirrors techniques, has concerned the public with only the documents' authenticity.

Kick....I'm informing all the media about this!
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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. $10,000?
They don't have to worry about paying it, since they have the originals.
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The experiment done by Mr. Hailey IS an exact reproduction
Edited on Mon Sep-27-04 05:36 PM by deckerd
All that remains is to do it on the original equipment using the exact
same font used by Mr. Hailey, Typewriter (Condensed) which was created
and designed for a proportional-spaced typewriter.

We need to determine which devices came with "Typewriter (Condensed)"
as an option, and what similar fonts (e.g. "Delegate") were available.

As a precaution, perhaps we could ask the blog in question (Powerline?
LGF?) to put the money in an escrow account and ask a researcher such
as Mr. Hailey to call BS on them if they fail to do so.
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. kick... this shit is important.
We are dealing with facts here, people... not idle speculation.

We will not win on this issue attempting to manage PERCEPTIONS.

This took me a long time to put together and I hope someone follows up
on it. This is an ongoing forensic investigation into who created the
documents and how. This is exactly what we can't rely on CBS to do
(given their low credibility to begin with). We bloggers must do it ourselves.
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AnIndependentTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. links to most of the information too and other threads as well
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. where is that cut & pasteable national media list?
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. kick... I will e-mail this thread to the WP Ombudsman, IF...
Edited on Tue Sep-28-04 12:02 AM by deckerd
If someone will give me the URL for the two images that were done here on DU, proving that:

(a) memo letters use flag serifs, unlike MSWord's TNR font; and

(b) the image that shows there is no kerning in the CBS Docs.

(CBSMemos-nokerning.gif; I have this on my computer, but I do not
have a web link for it.)

I already wrote a pretty long (and probably annoyingly pissed-off)
letter to the ombudsman of the Washington Post, in response to his
summation of the Memogate under the title "Self-Inflicted Wounds" (!)

But I have not sent it yet because it references the two images above,
and I want to give him web-links not attachments.

First, I will send him a very brief letter with the URL for this thread topic:

democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=906750&mesg_id=907283

If someone can e-mail this URL to the media so they can read this thread, that'd be awesome!
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Fuzzy LaRue Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. Sadly, Nothing short of the originals...
will be accepted as legit. The damage is done. CBS and Rather issued an apology. The truth was a victim in this one. It all comes back to one thing in a lot of people's mind that even if a typewriter could create the document, a word processor can also. Without the originals, the whole memo flap is more of a black eye than a revelation.
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm not impressed by your attempt to cut off discussion
Or sum up prior to any determination of the truth of this matter.

This is not a partisan issue for me. It cuts to the heart of
making truth matter in this nation again. In a postmodern,
valueless society like that advocated by Anne Applebaum,
the "Fascists" in some form or another will inevitably win.
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Fuzzy LaRue Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not trying to stifle discussion in any way...
but legitimacy without the originals will be impossible to acheive.
I am not happy about it. I feel it is a raw deal myself. The seed of doubt is hard to get rid of once it takes hold. I don't think they are forgeries either, but what can be offered as proof to those that DO doubt it?
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DemFromMem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Agree, let's move on
The public has formed its conclusions on this and the only thing that will make them change their minds is new proof that says the same thing or the actual original documents. I'm more concerned about the chilling effect we've seen on reporting on this story. Even if the documents were produced on a typewriter, there' not a lot of faith in the source of the documents.
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. BS -- if you had read my Original Post
Edited on Tue Sep-28-04 01:52 AM by deckerd
...in its entirety, you would know exactly where I am coming from. But you did not.

The memos were not forged; they were tampered with. Forensic evidence points to this.

For the memos to have been forged, they would have had to been done by someone with a much greater degree of forgery expertise and knowledge of Killian's situation than was available to an elderly, disabled whistleblower named Burkett, who relied on Kinkos to do e-mail, who was never in the TANG and did not know anything about Killian or Bush for that matter prior to 1997, when he caught a glimpse of some personnel records for his then-Governor that had nothing to do with the content of the Killian memos. Follow the logic, OK?

With Dems like these, we would have never known the truth about the Reichstag bombing; it would have been impolitic to ask. I regard this as a similarly ominous escapade on the part of Stone et al; yet the minds of some Dems do not seem to fully comprehend the motives or even the technology involved with these memos. This seeming thickskulledness with which I am all too familiar amongst my friends and family who claim to be "following" the "CBS" story allows RWers to sow chaos again and again, to influence your perceptions of the outcome before hanging you on the bedpost, election after election.

Like whitened sepulchers, you guys say you believe the memos to be forgeries when you truly do not understand or care what it is exactly that you mean by that. This suggests that you are simply following others around by the nose, in the media or here on DU, without investigating to your own satisfaction and coming to an informed conclusion about the facts I presented in the original post (above).

The purpose of this thread is to clarify exactly what is provable about the memos. If you guys would read the original post in its entirety instead of spouting off, you would understand what it is that the researcher (and I) are saying about the documents.

EOM. Now watch this drive.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. This is exactly what a lot of us here at DU said at the time
The memos look like they were typed. It was deeply suspicious that a well-connected Republican lawyer in Atlanta posted a lot of technical jargon on Free Republic within hours of the CBS 60 Minutes II broadcast. It is notable that his technical analysis was wrong.

We don't know if the documents are real or fake. They could have been typed minutes before being given to CBS.

It's sad that the media jumped on erroneous information and totally missed the real story here.
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. kick... STILL need links for those images dammit
The CBS blowups contradicting the WP that were posted on the "Conclusive Proof" thread.

What happened to the people pursuing this? Attention deficit disorder? Obsession with polls that if accurate, require bold action and if rigged don't matter?? Someone sent you a PM telling you to hush up lest it damage Kerry somehow? That's BS. What are we saying if we put this on ice? I note that the folks upthread weren't able to read two lines into my post to figure out whether I thought the docs were forged or not -- or what the forensic researcher had to say. If this is how Dems on DU respond, why bother sending a LTTE?
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. I also postulated that Killian typed the memos.
To TRULY cover his ass, in case Knox' memos were lost...which they were.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x841272#883408

Basically, I argued that despite the typing and spacing errors, the documents were TOO GOOD to be forgeries. One would have to know that a 1972 typewriter could do a superscript "th".

As an experienced typesetter, I can tell when someone is blowing smoke typographically, like that adjunct prof. at Carnegie-Mellon (Newcomer)...he out and out LIED to the Washington Post. And of course, the reporters were too lazy to get confirmation from another source.
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Thanx for the vote of confidence! if we can prove these are TAMPERED docs
By Stone, then we have the GOP by the balls.

It is the simplest explanation.

Can you believe that guy argued a superscript key is not a
superscript key unless it strikes above the other letters?

That is a MANUAL operation -- you rotate the drum back a half step!

I bet Kurtz is just pulling a Novak pulling favors for B/C... They are
counting on shortened memories of prior conditions, much like Stalin did...
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think Killian was typing on copied letterhead.
That would be an even simpler explanation for the angle of the letterhead and the more aged appearance. It's hard to center on a proportional typewriter, so Knox or somebody like that probably ran off a bunch of copies when she got it right, to use as letterhead for the office. Cheaper than printing. The typos in the document are Killian's own handiwork.

I think the extent of Rove's or Stone's involvement was to give Buckhead a heads up/do something order. He was shooting from the hip. Like the White House said, they only had three hours to think of a good excuse. They still haven't flatly said the documents are bogus, or denied the contents...just raised "questions."

The typographic "experts" in the early part of this saga would be laughable if they weren't so depressingly sinister.

Thanks for the link to that study. I'm glad somebody else is saying it's not a Word document. Hailey seems like a thorough researcher. (I should've thought to look at the common letters e, t, a, o, n, r....)
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deckerd Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I noted that possibility in the OP
On the other hand, it's worth considering that the format is not the
same format used in the letterhead of other Killian or Killian->Bush
memorandums. Do we even know if the PO Box is legit?

I stand by my suspicions that extant original memos may have been
tampered with a fake letterhead, assuming they were not generated
by a professional forger.

The insistence by Nydia/Lucy/Yvonne/whoever that Burkett burn the
originals is also deeply suspicious.

Folks who don't see where this is going aren't thinking clearly;
there's no way Burkett could have produced these memos.
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