Should Kerry break the "debate" rules?

[RapidCreek]

Poll question: Should Kerry break the "debate" rules?

Here's my take on it.....the minute the cameras start to role Kerry should make a statement that he has no intention of following the dictates of Bush's handlers.

He should say...."If we are going to call this thing a debate then let's debate in the spirit of the Ivy league Universities you and I graduated from. If you're too frightened to face me on those terms in front of our constituencies how can you foist yourself off as the leader of the free world George? Let's face it....to be a leader you have to have a little iron in your spirit and demonstrate a swiftness in formulating thoughts and expressing them clearly and concisely under any and all conditions. When you deal with the rest of the world you aren't going to be doing so from behind the skirts of Karl Rove, enjoying the protection of rules designed to shield you from any sort of challenge...I should think you'd be able to deal with a few challenges of less gravity from a fellow that you claim is as incapable as I am, at the very least."

"I hear you are resolute and unafraid George...is that just a sound bite designed to cover your true nature? Do you want to debate like a man or not George? I've never talked tough then run or hidden from a fight George...how about you? You have made allot of noise about our country going it alone....you've had no compunctions about sending our troops off to go it alone...are you willing to challenge yourself to the same standard? What do you say Mr. President...how about you go it alone and face me in a real debate, mano a mano?"

I doubt Kerry will do anything along these lines...which is really sad. Such a course of action would have the desired effect regardless of Bush's response...If George ran away...well then his true colors would be shown to the world. If he took the challenge, his idiocy would be exposed. If Kerry was cut off the claims of a "liberal media" would ring hollow ever after.

RC

P.S. If you answer yes or no it'd be nice if you gave your thoughts on why you voted as you did. :)

[Name removed]

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[RapidCreek]

9. How so? Please elaborate

Zell Miller is a sell out and a moron bursting at the seems with inanity...I fail to see how Kerry could look like that. Maybe you could enlighten me.

RC

[wtmusic]

2. It's a win-win

Either Chimpy is a coward, or a fool. I love it. :thumbsup:

[bigpathpaul]

43. I hope he goes with his gut feeling on it.

I'm sure he's (JK) rehearsed the thing to death, but I'm thinking, in a crunch, he'll come through.

Listen: Shrub is a loose canon right now. I really believe he's running scared, but he never believed he'd actually be challenged. Look at the pictures of him campaigning. He looks like a madman. He could snap!

[wtmusic]

46. If Shrubby snapped on national TV it's all over

and it would probably break the neocon's back, as well. This is sounding absolutely delicious.

[Free2BMe]

3. ABSOLUTELY

excuse my yelling....but Kerry should come out like a deaniac -with fists flyin' ...he has nothing to lose...only winning to do and to prove there is strength behind his words...He can even say he changed his mind on agreeing to the rules...what the heck!!!!

[LittleClarkie]

10. Yeah, comin' out like a Deaniac sure did Dean alot of good

And flip flopping on the rules... sure, strength behind his words, uh huh.

Nah, he will just bend Bush like a spoon with his mind.

Not that I haven't had fantasies of Kerry pimp-slapping the guy.

[Free2BMe]

17. We can only hope..

but if he starts talking intelligent the american public will turn him off..they aren't used to that in the whitehouse..

[wtmusic]

47. Not analogous

In total control, but just challenging Junior to a true debate. Back and forth, challenge-response.

He couldn't lose.

[henslee]

4. Yeah, Kerry should get a darker tan, botox injections, streaks in his hair

have two maracas and start singing calypso, too. Take George right off his game.

[RapidCreek]

23. I think he got a darker tan.....

as far as taking George off a game that he is prordained to win; a non-debate, pre-scripted theater production, I'd say he's got about as much chance of that as he has of winning a fist fight with his hands and legs tied together....then again maybe that new tan will do the trick.

RC

[sasquatch]

5. The Bush Crime Family doesn't believe in rules so why should Kerry follow-

them.

[clevergirl]

33. You're so right.

[Avalux]

6. He needs to do something unexpected

not necessarily confrontational as you suggest, but something to throw shrub off balance. Either verbally or with body language. He's gotta find a way to knock the doofus off script.

[gristy]

11. He could bang his shoe on the lecturn?

Oh, wait. It's been done.

[elsiesummers]

79. Short answers - never hitting two minutes.

The press is setting up a story line that Kerry is indecisive (flip-flop) to be supported by Kerry being unable to give a straight (under two minute) answer.

Kerry must not go over the 2 minute limits - especially with any regularity - the press is setting him up for this.

[codegreen]

7. "why did the JK camp agree to terms he wouldn't follow?" would be the meme

[grannylib]

12. "Why did Bush take an oath of office he had no intention of upholding?"

would be my response to that one!
Talk about lying under oath - he sure did on Jan. 20 2001.
Fucker.

[Mr_Spock]

18. Fuck the meme - this is a game we need to win.

Stupid cow-towing has lead to nothing but criticism and lost elections in the past. I'm angry and I want Kerry to be angry for me too.

[RapidCreek]

22. And the response....

Because it's the only thing that Bush respects or understands.....as he has demonstrated over and over again. Particularly as it related to the responsibilities he was entrusted with in going to war with Iraq.

Kerry gets called a flip-flopper? So the hell what? If flip-flopping is what it takes to get a job done properly then flip-flopping is what needs to be done....especially in dealing with those who have demonstrated their own proclivity to act in such a fashion when pursuing their own very personal goals and ambitions at the expense of the people they are and were paid to represent.

There ain't no rules in love or war...just ask Bush! This is war...and it should be approached as such. It is a battle to preserve what sanctity is left of our Democracy.

RC

[GreenArrow]

8. and the media would spin this how?

Kerry would be better to stick by the rules and demonstrate some adaptability and imagination in overcoming them.

[Rose Siding]

14. They'd say he's a loose cannon and he had a meltdown

Lots of people would like it, but the media would pummel the crud out of any advantage.

[NightOwwl]

66. Why?

Media will slice and dice Kerry no matter what. If tables were turned and Bush broke the rules he'd be lauded as a "man of action."

I don't care how many rules he breaks, he needs to do whatever it takes to destroy Bush. Media be damned.

[Dimsdale]

13. If Man or Monkey wins by just showing up,

what does Kerry have to lose? Go for it.

[Mike L]

15. Can't cut out the "people" in this one. Do it next time. This is townhall.

[bklyncowgirl]

16. Yes

The rules have been clearly set to Bush's advantage. Why the Democrats went along with it for Chrissake is beyond me. They should have agreed to reasonable conditions and when the Republicans started throwing in garbage said take it or leave it--we'll debate an empty podium.

They think they're big winners because the Chimp doesn't get to stand on a box.

[markus]

19. Bush is going to attack Kerry

The rules don't alllow for direct engagement, but we all know that Bush is going to snidely go after him in every statement.

If Bush make one statement that even so much as hints at a question or direct challenge, and is stupid enough to turn and look at him as he says it, then he should confront him on it.

If that happens, and happens just right, then this could work.

[dumpster_baby]

20. he should break the rules only if still behind before the last debate

If the last debate is held, and he is still behind, then he should break the rules.

[wanpete]

21. Might as well...

he is not going to win according to the media anyway. But he can win in the eyes of the public. Screw the debate rules. He's got to play it live Rove and company play. Take the gloves off Kerry and KNOCK HIM OUT!

[Lefty48197]

24. The future of the free world is at stake. This is no time for meekitude.

.

[MontecitoDem]

25. Help me with my dumb question

Time of debate in california?
channel?

why isn't this info on the front page of the Kerry site?

thanks!

[Bluebear]

26. Cut to palm trees! Cut to palm trees!

[dolstein]

27. I guarantee you that if Kerry pulls a stunt like that, it will backfire

The media will just endlessly run clips of Kerry obnoxiously breaking the rules his own campaign agreed to, juxtapoed against the annoying Gore clips from 2000.

[vetwife]

29. Not if it was S& B coded !

To put some fear into old George !

[RapidCreek]

30. How will it backfire?

So what if the media enlessly runs clips of Kerry obnoxiously breaking the rules? The American public likes risk takers and winners...they like people who talk tough AND demonstrate a willingness and ability to back it up.

I would suggest the media would never run clips of Kerry obnoxiously breaking the rules...if he followed my script...or something similar. How could they? Why would they? It's a call out...it's a challenge to the Chimp to back that swagger, those canted out elbows and that tough guy smirk up with something. To hell with what his campaign agreed to...who cares what they agreed to...you think after he looses in these fake debates it will make any difference?

All his campaign has to say is "It was the only way we could get Bush to face the nation...and his competitor. We think the American public has the right to see whether their leader is the man he claims to be, unvarnished, stripped bare and fighting like he should be able to fight. Does the Bush camp think that those who they will be dealing with if their man is elected are always going to play by his rules? Has the Bush camp demonstrated a willingness to play by the rules themselves when it serves them not to? Well of course not. We have decided to deal with them in a fashion they understand and should in any case be able to deal with if they are worth their salt".

RC

P.S. I thought Gore could do no wrong in your world Dohlstien! He's a DLC machination...a man who took the "high road", played by the "rules" and got his ass handed to him....or is that your idea of a successfull outcome for the team. I mean lets face it...engaging in the same course of action over and over when it fails is a sure path to failing over and over and over.

I have a question for you fella. How would your life be any different if Bush won the election? If I recall correctly, you've done quite well while living under the rule of the new monarchy. What would be in it for you if they got booted out the door?

[NightOwwl]

68. I agree with you completely...

and as to how the campaign should respond to nay-sayers, you said it perfectly. "It was the only way we could get Bush to face the nation...."

Seriously, if any Kerry people are reading this...take note. What RapidCreek said...people need to hear.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

34. CBS Memo, Part II

Any points that Kerry makes in the debate will be lost in the endless punditry about how Kerry broke the rules. Does Kerry really need to give the media a reason to focus on style over substance?

[RapidCreek]

37. They already do and they will again.

So give them some style....a style indicative of a man who takes no shit from anyone, who is truly strong, truly tough and truly resolute.

RC

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

59. And truly unelectable...

As much as we (here at DU) would like to see Kerry walk across the stage and cold-cock Bush, the rest of the nation (and particularly undecided voters) would decide that anybody who would do something that rash probably shouldn't be President.

Kerry is perfectly capable of making Bush look like a fool while staying within the ground rules of the debate.

[RapidCreek]

60. Is it rash though? Is it really rash to spill the beans on the Republican

cowardly protectionist policies regarding true challenges to their candidates veracity, confidence, honesty etc. etc. when the cameras are rolling? How else can it be done? The media is a tool of the right...as we all know....and the media is unfortunately the primary tool with which most undecided voters make their decisions regarding candidates. Most undecided voters don't read Harpers or Mother Jones.

If Kerry made a splash it may or may not be questioned by the media....It may or may not be addressed by the media. You see, the problem the media has with making anything of it is that they put themselves under the spotlight. Their own trustworthiness comes into question. The truth of who controls what they present and how it is presented comes into question....and these are questions I suspect they would want to keep from floating through the heads of those undecided voter.

I watched Bush take apart an incumbent Governor in a debate which was structured much like the one Kerry will be participating in. I don't have as much confidence as you in his ability to reply to things which he is accused of saying by bush....but he didn't say...via tricky answers through the moderator. It's pretty much an impossibility. Being on the defense is hard enough in and of itself. Being on the defense while simultaneously trying to communicate your ideas is akin to walking on water.....and mark my words...Kerry will be on the defense the minute he walks on stage. the debate rules were set up the way they were up to insure such a scenario.

RC

[RapidCreek]

75. My how strange and ironic that you would say such a thing.....

if your opinion was a valid one, Karl Rove wouldn't be president today.

RC

[wtmusic]

48. Wrong

Kerry doesn't have to be obnoxious about it. He can be completely truthful, straightforward, and just point out the fact that's obvious to everyone: that it's not a debate if they can't respond to each others' comments.

A direct challenge is something that would make Kerry our next president.

[dolstein]

53. It's another flip flop: he's for the rules, then he's against them

Sorry, nice try. But the problem is, HIS campaign agreed to these rules. And now he's engaging in a transparent attempt to have it both ways. He has his campaign sign onto the rules. And then, when it suits him, he comes out against them. The tactic you suggest will be exposed for the transparent phony gimmick that it is.

[RapidCreek]

55. So what?

Who cares? You gotta break eggs to make an omelet. What is phony about it? I'll tell you what is phony....the debate....that's what is a phony gimmick and anyone who enlists in its execution is a phony as well. If the candidates want a debate then they should debate. Or are you worried Kerry isn't up to the task? If you want to avoid phoniness then call this little get together what it is...a two party press conference.

It's another flip flop? Pray tell you DLC wonk...what were the rest? You saying your boy is a flip flopper now? My how telling your post is. You have just denigrated the Democratic candidate. Are you sure your on the right board Dolstine? I think this boards rules expressly forbid such behavior at this stage in the game.


RC

[NightOwwl]

69. Bush has never played by the rules.

That's why he's the President and Gore isn't.

[vetwife]

28. He should threaten to tell all about Skull and Bones right there !

If there was any noise about breaking the rules. Break em all !
That is my take ! I would give little code words known only to them to let him know I was gonna spill my guts ! That should wake up the christian Fundie community ! The rule is if either mention S & B, the other is to walk away..Totally walk off stage and no one would know why but the S & B folks !

[Silverhair]

31. NOT a good idea.

Gore tried stuff like that. Remember when he left his podium and got in W's face? For DU types that may have been emotionally satisfying, but it looked really bad to the rest of the nation. He didn't look calm, controlled, or presidential.

I didn't vote in your poll because of the way you worded the responses. I don't consider keeping your word as being "playing Rove's game." For that matter, I would not be surprised it in a couple of Bush's debate preps, they have rehearsed for Kerry to do something like that - just in case. They aren't stupid you know.

[RapidCreek]

35. The problem is Gore didn't say anything when he did it

he just breathed into Bush's smirk and stood their taking kicks to the balls. Gore isn't a debater and Kerry is.....if he is allowed to debate.

Mark my words....if Kerry goes along with the gag....he shall loose and loose handsomely. Then again...maybe he can aquire a more comvincing and charming awe shucks dumbness and learn to shuffle around like a boob a little more effectively than Bush and pick up an accent like Wilfred Brimley before he goes on stage.

RC

[RapidCreek]

41. Their stupidity isn't the isseu....it's their confidence

in a train of thought like your own.....DLC SOP. Always the same....never deviate. Completely predictable. Always fearful. One need not have a terribly sharp intellect to go up against the same stale shit over and over again. Hell the fact that Rove so effectively understands what the DLC will do before the DLC does....and consistently has a stiletto sharp course of action or response in the pipe, ready to puncture the flaccid, tired, fearful and predictably consistent DLC modus operandi is proof of that. Rove doesn't need to do the "just in case" scenario....because he knows for a fact that there is no "just in case" scenario to be dealt with...there never is.

Christ, a literal idiot is now at the reigns of the most powerful nation in the world....and the DLC LOST TO THIS IDIOT!!! They'll loose again....why the fuck wouldn't they? What's changed? The DLC approach? Nope....same as always...as dependable as the sun coming up or the tide rolling in. As Kerry sais...it's time for a change....and that change needs to come within before it can have any outward effect.

RC

[clevergirl]

32. Make Bush Wimper

He MUST break the rules immediately and challenge Bush. Bush can't think on his feet, he'll turn red and get pissed. And in the end, Bush can't very well say, "I won't debate any more! Kerry's not fair!"

God I miss Howard Dean.

[bklyncowgirl]

40. I totally agree

What's Shrub gonna do, go running for Uncle Dick?

[Free2BMe]

65. Wimper's the W word.

Yes,,,,,,piss W off...let him get red in the face and spew forth the lack of intelligent "engalish" he is so noted for...

[Demoiselle]

36. I l ove what you've written, and I voted YES, but...

I think he can break the rules in slightly subtler ways...by asking questions of his opponent continually, for instance, and repeating them if necessary. They can be rhetorical...he can continue to face the cameras while he asks the questions or fires whatever shots he likes...

[Spiffarino]

38. It's a given that Bush will break the rules

He always does, and why not? They're bullshit.

I have to completely agree. Kerry may just as well say, "I'm sorry, but these rules are completely ridiculous and I cannot in good conscience allow this travesty to continue. We will have a debate, not a series of soundbites. If that offends you, so be it. What is most important is if it enlightens you."

[Bread and Circus]

39. Um...he agreed to the rules...shouldn't he abide by them?

I don't like the rules and I am aghast that Kerry and the gang signed on. However, he can't sign to the rules and deliberately/flagrantly break them. He might be able to bend them a little, I think they both will, but outright breaking them would go along w/ the "flip flopper" theme.

[RapidCreek]

42. So the hell what?

You have to dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee to win a fight....if you stand in the same damn place and swing at the same air over and over...your going to get beat in the head till you drop.

The flip flopper theme could be dealt with quite effectively if the DLC chose to deal with it...but they don't. No one has flip flopped more than Bush....funny though...not a word about it...not one....this would be the opportunity to drive that nail home. What's good for the goose is good for the gander....What the hell is wrong with being a flip flopper when you are up against flip floppers...you fight fire with fire. This is about winning...it is NOT about appeasing Karl Rove because you are worried his monkey might call you names.

RC

[Bread and Circus]

44. He shouldn't have agreed to the rules in the first place.

That's the end of it in my opinion.

Now that he did, he has to do the honorable thing and honor his word.

[RapidCreek]

52. Yea well...I used to live my life like that ...until I began to deal

with truly dishonorable individuals...it's pretty difficult to win a game of cards when your opponant is cheating, you know it and you don't make an effort to point it out.

When one must make a deal with the Devil to be allowed in his court a deal which prevents one from challenging the Devil...one must consider the motives, goals and ambitions of the Devil. Is being "honorable" worth condeming you client to hell? One must ask himself if being honorable in a court with no honor outways winning the case. I for one believe that failing to be heard at all...and loosing the case to all that is evil is not a honorable thing. Quite the contrary.

RC

[NightOwwl]

70. He should abide by the rules because it will look bad if he doesn't?

And meanwhile, Cheney is going around the country telling people if they vote for Kerry, America will be attacked like never before, while his puppet Bush is makes jokes about Kerry turning "orange."

Play by the rules? And let those two have another 4 years? Bullshit.

[Josh]

45. If Kerry breaks the rules, Bush will cancel debates 2 and 3

Then we're fucked. Play by the rules. At least for the first debate.

[RapidCreek]

56. Nah then he is fucked...he'll look like the cowardly little pimp that he

IS....A scared little bunnypants hiding behind pappa Roves skirts.

RC

[alecthemad]

49. Break the rules

In reading a few posts here there seems to be the feeling that Bush is bad at debating. Ann Richards and Al Gore both underestimated him, to their detriment.

That folksy way which he has cultivated still rings true with many people and allows him to connect with people. In many cases that ability to connect on a personal level even through mass media has made the difference in elections. Bill Clinton and Ronald Regean were masters of it and both handily won second terms.

In any case, Kerry coming out and saying I want to debate in a different way than we agreed upon would be met with an easy response by Bush: "There you go again--flip flopping." Then Rove can run the ads I agreed to the debate rules before I disagreed with them.

[Vickers]

61. You really think he's folksy? I think he's a dipshit

But hey, same difference, really.

[NightOwwl]

73. Sounds like you assume Kerry's going to ask permission first.

:freak:

[DougieZero]

50. There will be no winner.

There will be no winner the way it's set up... The rules imposed are anything but a debate. To defeat your opponent in a modern day highly scrubbed "debate" you have to at least be able to respond to your opponent and go off the script. You do have to play the “gotcha” game somewhat and this being the only foreign policy debate would have been a nail bitter for Bush, but it looks like he is going to escape with the “everyone wants freedom” and “they hate freedom” soundbites.

I thought it was bizarre that Kerry got that 2nd town hall debate... I guess we now know why.

[Seeking Serenity]

51. I think that during one of *'s "answers," Kerry should . . .

all of a sudden blurt out, "Look! Cows!"

See how Shrubby handles that.

:-) (It's a joke)

[TriMetFan]

58. Thats so funny.

Or how about "Look! Its God come to talk to you George!":evilgrin:

[NightOwwl]

54. Definitely yes.

Given that BushCo is blatantly using the "Kerry is pro-terrorist" smear, I'd say Kerry has a right to do and say anything he wants.

[morgan2]

57. if he was going to fight the draconian rules

he had his place to do it already. It just looks like a stunt if he does it in the debates. If he refused bush's dumb rules and had a campaign on tv calling bush a coward, that would have been effective.

[RapidCreek]

62. kick

NT

RC

[MsTryska]

63. I'd love to see it happen, but i doubt it will....

we're democrats and we just don't paly that way.

always gotta be fair and honest and upstanding. damn us and our values!

[MISSDem]

64. I don't care what he does as long as he "comes from behind"

and wins the debate hands down like he is known for doing.

[Booster]

67. I read that Bush/Rove said that if any rules were broken

they would not have the other 2 debates, so you know they would love for Kerry to break a rule. Kerry probably will because there are so many, and that's exactly how Rove planned it - smart little weazel.

[RapidCreek]

74. That'd be ok...it will demonstrate their proclivity for cowardess

when faced with situations that they cannot control.

Confidently and effectively facing situations which fall outstide ones comfort zone is what being the president is all about. If you can't do it...or won't do it, then you aren't qualified for the job. In fact your not qualified for any job.

RC

[vetwife]

71. He should shake his hand and lean over and whisper

You got a green buger pretty obvious on your nose. Makeup should have caught it.

[fishnfla]

72. Yes, by all means make the debates a vital campaign issue.

Kerry pitches a fit. Rove's hard on ejaculates

Did not see the word "iraq" once in your pre-fab rant

[RapidCreek]

76. Kerry doesn't pitch a fit and...

Rove's hardon ejaculates. What's your point? Christ will you people ever learn? You've lost congress, the Presidency and the Courts because of timidity....yet you continue to advocate timidity. I guess you like to lose. I don't.

What the fuck has Iraq to do with forced rules of participation which make a debate a charade? Not a goddamn thing.

RC

[fortyfeetunder]

77. Kick ass, take names later

Kerry cannot afford to let Bush portray him as some MA wimp who has no vision, but that is exactly the roadmap. Kerry's camp should have said eff no to those silly ass rules in the first place. Well, guess it's time to take off the gloves, put on some pointy toe cowboy boots and aim for the crack of *'s ass mentally and verbally. Rope a Dope, a la Michael Dukakis didn't work.

And Kerry needs to wear some heeled shoes so he looks taller than Bush.

[RapidCreek]

78. kick

n/t

RC

[RapidCreek]

80. kick her one more time.

RC