Help me respond to this email from a Bush voter please...

[tjdee]

This person emailed my sis, she asked for help.

"I will readilly follow anyone that
I believe is a man of prayer before I follow someone who isn't. Plus I have listened to Kerry and his spokes people speak
and have felt a tremendous spirit of confusion on them. I really
believe that he has no business presuming that he can run this country."

This person obviously buys the "flip flop" and "Bush is such a Christian" thing.

This person also cites the abortion issue (I got that under control--let's cry for unborn children but not grown folks in Iraq?).
I was thinking of bringing up Cokey McCokeCocaine, but I want to keep it simple. Help??

Should I bring up the Moonies?

[neuvocat]

1. How about this?

"I will readilly follow anyone that I believe is a man of prayer before I follow someone who isn't. Plus I have listened to Kerry and his spokes people speak and have felt a tremendous spirit of confusion on them. I really believe that he has no business presuming that he can run this country."

Name one single time that Bush has EVER led a public prayer or ministered the gospel to those he felt should listen to it.

[veteran_for_peace]

2. Send him back an email saying that you will pray for him.

you will not convince him that shrub is not the savior.

[Radical Activist]

3. In the NT Jesus strongly

criticized the scribes and pharisees who wore their religion on their sleeve by making a big show of their prayers and fasting in public. Bush is acting just like those that Jesus called hypocrites. Tell your friend to not be easily fooled by wolves in sheep's clothing: by their works ye shall know them. What are Bush's works? Lies, war, taking from the poor.

[Minimus]

4. lots of christians don't think bush is one

check out:

(Enter at your own risk!)

http://www.repentamerica.com/bushrevealed/

Welcome to BushRevealed.com!
This website serves as notice to Christians across this nation that President George Bush over the past few years has compromised his "Christian faith" by promoting evil and openly supporting wickedness. It is our hope and prayer that he would Repent and turn from such blatant sin. He is not our friend and cannot be trusted.




I get ammo from this site to counter fundies at work. It shuts them up!

[pdx_prog]

12. Wheeww....

Someone passed out a LARGE pitcher of Kool aid on that site didn't they?

[Minimus]

16. oh yeah! but at least they are anti-bush - in a sick way

[Vincardog]

5. Kerry is religious but he knows he represents the people that elected him

The difference between Kerry and The idiot Bush is Kerry wants to be on God's side. You will notice that Bush always claims that God is on his side.

[KC21304]

6. I received my email from Arianna Online today and

it would be perfect to send to your sister. It doesn't have a link so I can post it here and I'm not to hip on how to copy the whole thing but if you go to ariannaonline.com I'm sure you can read it there.

[teach1st]

8. Arianna link

http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/column.php?id=736

Perhaps the holy rollers in the Bush camp should crack open a Bible and see what it has to say about caring for the poor (Matthew 25:40), caring for the Earth (Genesis 2:15), and caring for human rights (Genesis 1:27). I've got a hunch Jesus wouldn't be too thrilled with Bush's first term.

And while they're acquainting themselves with the Book they purport to defend, the Bushies might also want to have a look at John 8:32 to see what it has to say about the moral imperative of telling the truth. Instead, they are doing everything in their power to convince nervous voters that a vote for John Kerry is a vote for another 9/11. It's the latest vile twist in the Bush-Cheney "all fear, all the time" campaign strategy, and the last desperate gasp of an administration utterly clueless about how to actually win the war on terror.

[KC21304]

7. See if this works for your sister.

http://ariannaonline.com/columns/column.php?id=736

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Points to consider

Following a man of prayer should depend upon what he prays for. The president's numbers were so dismal in his first six months he must have been praying for something to bring them up. Then 9/11 happened and he "hit the trifecta". Sounds like his prayers were answered? A Christian Governor may well decline to vacate a death sentence based on his principles, but by what Christian principles does he mock the condemned? Perhaps what you see as a person not being a man of prayer is actually a person who holds his belief close to his heart, preserving it as a tie between him and God, rather than, like the Pharisees, praying loudly in public so that all may approve of their piety.

Have you been listening to Kerry and his people, or to media clips of Kerry and his people? Kerry's well considered approach to a complex problem in Iraq has never flipped, and if you'd been listening to him, you'd be aware of it. During the Democratic primary debates I worked on my computer with the TV on behind me, just listening to the speakers, and three out of four times that someone made a particularly cogent point I'd turn around to see who it was and was surprised to see it was Kerry -- and he was at that time far down on my list of nominees, after Kucinich, Dean, and Clark.

As an aside for abortion, pro-choice allows you to choose either way. Anti-choice gives the government the right to decide -- and a government that can force you to go to term, can also force you to have an abortion, if it so chooses. Leave the choice in the hands of the mother and her doctor.

Doubt simple answers to complex problems, research beyond the headlines and soundbites, then decide.

[phish420]

17. Excellent reply! I may use some of this for some people I know!! nt

[dave123williams]

10. Here's a tack you might try...

"I will readilly follow anyone that I believe is a man of prayer before I follow someone who isn't."

So, by this rationale, you'd follow Osama Bin Laden before you'd follow any secular American.

You'd have been one of the people who died with the Rev. Jim Jones rather than follow an ethical, but non-religious Patriot like Kerry.

By the way, you're a follower.


"Plus I have listened to Kerry and his spokes people speak
and have felt a tremendous spirit of confusion on them. I really
believe that he has no business presuming that he can run this country."

Yes; Bush has driven our foreign policy off a cliff, qualifiably creating more terrorists, deficit financing a war while tossing massive tax-breaks to the richest of us, and probably set the stage for a full-on civil war in Iraq, but at least he's not confused about why he's done it.

Supporting Bush is begining to look more and more like a character flaw, revealing a total lack of reflection and understanding. To wit; voting Bush means you're probably MORE stupid than he is, and that's saying something.

[tjdee]

11. Really great stuff; keep it coming!

I'm going to try to cobble together a mix of everything everyone is saying, plus email the thread to my sister.

Thanks everybody!

[GumboYaYa]

13. As for the man of prayer thing.

All we have are pictures of Bush praying. Can anyone name one act of faith or campassion that Bush has taken in his entire life (court ordered community service does not count)?

Here's what Jesus, Bush's favorite philosopher has to say on the issue, "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily, I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 6:5"

[AnIndependentTexan]

14. if someone can find it send him the words of the Pope endorsing Kerry

[tjdee]

15. What's that site, the other one, liberalschristian or something??

???

[funky_bug]

18. Here's my response to the man of prayer thing

I just threw this one out today, in fact. My baptist pal said that Bush is a man of God, and runs his presidency on faith. I told her that for all the "talking to God" that he says he does, he obviously never shuts up long enough to actually LISTEN to God. Then I cited the numerous lies he has run his presidency on, cited the promises he made during his 2000 campaign that he has failed to deliver on, and closed with "Sins are equal in God's eyes. If Bush lies, it's equivalent in God's eyes to any sin you think Kerry may have committed. A man is known by his actions. What does a failed economy, lost jobs, a growing deficit, and trillion-dollar cuts in educational funding tell you?" It worked. She said she agrees with me, and probably won't vote at all now. I told her to vote, but vote Bush OUT by voting Kerry in.

[eridani]

19. Notes from someone who deals with people like that a lot

On another thread here , someone noted that they don't call themselves Dominionists, or know what Dominionism is. Obviously. Fish don't have a word for water, either.

http://us.denniskucinich.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6155
George Bush is a Moral Man

This is the most common justification that supporters give for supporting Bush, and at first blush it seems as though there is no way to argue against this. However, this idea that he is moral is based upon his supposedly having given his life to Jesus. If you are a Christian, or if you have guts and compassion, you can deflate this line of thinking very easily.

There are two problems you will run into when you talk with them. First, you can't defeat a theological argument with a political argument. God will always trump the founding fathers. Secondly, every liberal argument serves to strengthen and reinforce their views - in fact, their views depend upon, and get sustenance from liberalism the way that ticks depend on and get nourishment from mammalian hosts.

So what to do? You can do what a lot of liberals do and run the other direction as fast as you can. You can't criticize their philosophy, because they hear that as criticism of God Almighty, and visions of hellfire and damnation dance through their wee little heads. You can't espouse liberal principles to them, because the hear the voice of Satan speaking through you when you do that. I know, it sounds crazy, but hang in there with me.

Here is the secret - the seeds for the unravelling of their arguments reside within their arguments. For Dominionism to hang together the teachings of Jesus need to be turned upside down and be interpreted as precisely their opposites. (Dominionism is the theological bridge between Christianity and right wing politics.) This implies the whole theory of the anti-Christ, but that is another topic.

The contradictions within the Dominionist theology are profound and they represent the Achille's heal of the right wing Christian movement, but they are theological contradictions not political contradictions. No one goes after this Achille's heel, because all who are not "believers" steer clear of talking about theology at all.

Check it out -

--Jesus said that love is supreme. Dominionism says that hate is good and righteous.
--Jesus said to be meek and humble. Dominionism says be arrogant and powerful.
--Jesus said give up your possessions. Dominionism says amass wealth.
--Jesus said to have compassion. Dominionism says to be ruthless.
--Jesus said to forgive. Dominonism says to blame others.
--Jesus said to "render unto Caesar." Dominionism says to be Caesar.
--Jesus said take care of the poor and sick. Dominionism says they're on their own and deserve to suffer.

Amazing, yes?

If you take a sincere interest and ask people about their faith, and then just let them talk, they will talk themselves out of the insanity. Ask them about the contradictions I listed above, but not in a mocking or critical way. They are so busy defending their theology from the likes of you, that they have never taken a good look at it themselves.

This is the key to getting God out of the extremist political movement, and once we do that the neo-cons will be seen as the destructive and corrupt power and money grabbers - and anti-Christians - that they are.