I can't believe so many people here are such fucking tools...

[Dookus]

Kerry had an affair with an intern.

Kerry is too tan.

Kerry is behind in the polls.

The CBS documents are forged...


Every one of those things is pure right-wing noise machine output. And so many of you fall for it hook, line and sinker. Shame on you.

People here ought to know better.

[saracat]

1. I don't get it either! You are right on. Thanks , Dookus!

[jeff30997]

2. fucking tools ?

Am I a fucking hammer or a fucking screwdriver ? :)

[auburngrad82]

53. I'm a garden rake...

[0rganism]

70. Fucking tools? More like dildos, vibrators, viagra, latex bodysuits...

There's no question. You're gonna KNOW which one you are! :D

[jeff30997]

106. Bwahahahahaaaaaah...!!!

Now my soda is all over the screen ! :)

[displacedtexan]

3. I'm still reading posts about how Gore "lost" or Gore's Campaign sucked.

Gore didn't lose (unless you count the Supreme Court as the electorate).

Karl Rove's campaign lost.

Isn't it amazing how winners get turned into losers because they didn't "win" by a big enough margin?

JK's wounds weren't severe enough, but Bush* served honorably?

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. Resolve, resolve, resolve of the people.

I'm telling you, it's not the candidate that made the difference. It's the resolve of the people. Us. WE make the difference.

[incapsulated]

9. Gore's campaign did suck

It doesn't mean that he didn't also have to contend with a media that actually hated him, personally, and went after him with long knives. But it did suck. That opinion doesn't make me a "fucking tool".

[Dookus]

43. how did his campaign suck?

he won the election. He got more votes than any Democrat in history. He got more votes than any candidate second only to Reagan's second term.

How did Gore fail? C'mon...

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Hey, Campaigns are messy. Get OVER it.

Christ. The other guy took cocaine, was an alcoholic, has had scratch and bruises from choking on a pretzel and falling off an electronic appliance; hid behind his daddy during the Vietnam War...

Don't you get it? No president in the history of this country has ever been perfect. The only thing that stands them apart is the resolve of the people who voted for him.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Envisioned]

12. amazing

very classy. I'll remember to ignore your asinine ramblings from now on. There was no reason to resot to insults.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Envisioned]

24. uh huh

banned because.....?

I haven't violated the TOS of the site, nor have I been an agressor towards other DU members, nor have I broken any state or federal laws, nor have I insulted anyone.

The only reason I can conceive of that you would want me banned is because I disagree with you about the CBS documents, and I was able to argue my point.

Free speech my ass.

I'll keep talking to the people on this site who are willing and able to engage in a decent discussion, as there ARE some who have chosen to do so.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Envisioned]

30. the problem with your claim

is that you don't know what I support or stand for. Again, nice try.

"1. This is a message board for Democrats and other progressives. "

So, for future reference, regardless of whether someone is a Democrat or not, as long as they are a "progressive" they fall within the area laid out by the TOS and "prime directive of this site."

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[JI7]

36. it's other posts in other threads do point to that

[Envisioned]

38. if you can...

find anywhere that I stated my affiliation, I will be amazed.

The only other posts I've made that make mention of any party directly were in regards to bumper stickers and such advertisements, and my comments were such as to show that EVERYONE who chooses to put stickers and such on their vehicles are falling prey to the damages. How is that bad?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[unfrigginreal]

54. Your 'some people consider Zarqawi a hero' thread

tells me all I need to know.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=116x7565

[Envisioned]

60. Which is what exactly?

It's a thread in which I requested discussion over an idea that bothered me. I suppose I made the mistaken assumption that people on this site would be capable of engaging in a thought filled conversation over a heated topic without becoming accusatory. If I wanted that, I'd go elsewhere.

[unfrigginreal]

63. "discussion over an idea that bothered me"

An idea that you made up? Where are these "discussions" about Zarqawi being a hero?

It's a piss poor attempt on your part to make Zarqawi the boogeyman, that Republicans always need, since your fuckup in the White House has failed to catch Bin Laden. Pure bullshit.

[Envisioned]

71. first off....

I didn't vote Bush into the White House.

Let's take that a little slower...

I..... didn't..... vote.....for......Bush.....


Secondly, at what point did you fail to understand that I chose not to post the link to a person's blog because I did not want to have every single trigger happy aggressor like you running over there and causing more trouble that is already being done?

[Dookus]

72. OK...

you were still living in your parents' house and jerking off to scrambled cable in 2000.

You weren't old enough to vote. You're still wrong on every major issue.

[Envisioned]

37. if you'll recall...

I conceded that they were not proven, and corrected my phrasing. I said they were not verifiable.

I'm done with this. I refuse to play this stupid game. It's become apparent that all you are doing is trying to get me to act in a manner that you can use as ammunition to get me banned. I refuse to cooperate with that when I have other people interested in talking.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[RafterMan]

34. Don't feel too bad

It looks like some people are just panicking, that's all.

If everyone thought rose-colored glasses were an asset, we'd all be voting for Bush.

[Envisioned]

40. I appreciate the support

I was starting to think that everyone was growing fangs and getting rabid, all because I happened to disagree about something.

[Cats Against Frist]

79. Funny

That's the same argument that I use when they try to kick me out of Free Republic -- I say, "but...I'm a libertarian..."

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. Post a link to support your position

Or lurk a while longer before posting again to understand what you did wrong; or leave.

One more hint: Don't post flammatory opinions without posting your source to back it up.

[Envisioned]

50. are you referring to...

my statement that CBS admitted they could not vouch for the authenticity of the documents?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/20/politics/main644546.shtml

all from CBS.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. Don't be obtuse. You know I was referring to post #6.

Weaseling on this newsgroup isn't going to win you any friends. In case you have trouble finding what you said, I'll quote it for you:

"....the CBS documents WERE forged. CBS even came out and admitted that."

[Envisioned]

62. in case you missed THIS too....

in posts 10 and 17 I admitted that my statement was incorrect. I then restated my counterpoint, to which I did provide evidence. If you want me to support my statements, at least challenge the ones that I didn't concede the point on.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. Follow the links.

I am very much aware that you made corrections after a DUer called you on your mistake. That's why I called you obtuse. If you had followed the link and connected with the post that I was responding to, then you would have found the section of the thread that was relevant at the time that I posted. This thread is moving rather fast and furiously, so at a minimum, be mindful that responses are made in a linear fashion.

[Envisioned]

73. as far as the thread....

I am not used to the format this site uses, so I apologize if I missed what you were referring to.

That said, what the hell is the problem? I corrected my mistake and ADMITTED the mistake. My point stands, regardless. What I don't understand is why, after I concede a point and correct my statement, you feel the need to criticize what has already been corrected.

[The Backlash Cometh]

104. Okay, I'll try to break it down for you:

1) I corrected your original mistake BEFORE you posted your correction or BEFORE I read the correction. I don't remember the thread being so long when I first jumped into this discussion so I believe it's the former.

2) You responded to my post without taking into account the above.

3) By the time I read your response, I had read your correction. And since I do know the format, and because it follows the format of most newsgroups that have now been around for more than ten years, I thought it was obtuse for you not to take into account Step 1).

On my part, I apologize that it hadn't occurred to me that you were not familiar with the format on this site.

Now, I suggest you walk away from this thread. And find another one and try again.

[JI7]

8. no they didn't

[Envisioned]

10. right,

no, you're both right. They didn't come out and say "these documents were forged."

I stand corrected.

What they did was abandon their position of standing by the documents, and admitted that they could not verify the authenticity of the documents.

Burkett, however, did lie about where he got the documents.

So while CBS did not outright say that the documents were forged, they did acknowledge, by action and claim, that it was a lost cause and that the documents should not have been used because they had not been verified.

It was just bad journalism, end of story.

[JI7]

14. the fact that the contents of the documents were said to be true by many

makes them less likely to be forged.

[Envisioned]

15. not really

First off, even if the information contained in a document is fact, if the document is not an official and original document, created by someone authorized to produce such a document, it is a forgery. A forgery is not credible evidence, regardless of content.

And people can say whatever they want. Until authentic documents are produced to support the claims, the information is total bunk. CBS screwed the pooch on this one, and hurt the argument.

The fact that Burkett admitted that he had lied about who gave him the documents also hurts the argument.

It's not that hard.

[JI7]

21. the secretary was authentic

[Envisioned]

28. which still does not

verify the authenticity of the documents. If it did, CBS would not have pulled out of the fight.

I'm not arguing whether the CONTENT of the documents was fact or fallacy. I'm arguing that the documents themselves were not authentic, and that in and of itself can have a harmful effect on Kerry's campaign, simply through percieved association.

[JI7]

33. it sure isn't a forgery, and i said it points to it being authentic since

the contents are true.

[Envisioned]

46. just because a secretary says...

that she typed up a memo containting the same information does not mean she did.

The big argument against Bush's WMD stance is that he said Iraq had WMD, and there aren't any there. He said it, but it wasn't true.

She could've done the same thing.

Mind you, I'm not saying she did lie. I'm saying that we really need to have the documents in hand before the weight of such information can ever be felt.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

105. Whether they were forged or not doesn't matter

in that it all was a setup to punish CBS and to prevent airing of the Niger document story. I don't know if anyone here can absolutely prove whether the guard docs were forgeries or not forgeries just like at freeper republic (which the media sharks give credit to for "exposing" them even though its clear the freepers have some connection to the rightwing smear machine).

[w13rd0]

35. It does beg the question...

...the secretary said she didn't type the CBS memos, but she DID type memos with the same content and concerns. Where did those documents go? The Bush WH needs to quit playing games. The questions remain, and the cover-up is usually worse than the crime.

[Envisioned]

42. I agree

I would like to know about those documents as well. If she says she typed memos with the same content, they need to be produced in order to restore the credibility of those involved, or at least repair what damage CAN be repaired.

I think the only way for anyone involved to really lay this to rest is to produce the original, authentic documents.

[JI7]

44. it's Bush who must answer, but he can't because he illegally got out

of doing his time.

[Envisioned]

52. in any event

i want an answer about it as much as anyone else does.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Envisioned]

57. I'm sorry,

but you must have mistaken the part where I said I was done with you to be an invitation for more of your idiot claptrap.

Please stop, as I am not interested in your games. I'm here for intelligent discussion, which you are not providing.

This will be my last response to you.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[IdaBriggs]

101. Use the "ignore" feature if you need to.

Its one of the icons across the top of the messages.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shraby]

16. What hasn't been covered are the

forged Nigerian documents that said Saddam tried to buy yellowcake from Niger and Bush used in his State of the Union speech to take us to war.

[Envisioned]

20. and if that's the case

I agree that it needs to be covered. I'm not singling out anyone in particular here, for those that haven't noticed.

But the start of this thread DID mention the CBS documents, which made them fair game for discussion.

[JI7]

23. and YOU brought up FORGED documents which make the Iraq

weapons claims fair game for discussion.

[Envisioned]

25. as for the weapons claims

I don't recall disputing that. Nice try.

[JI7]

29. i never said anything about disputing it i said it's fair game

just as you claimed the cbs document thing was fair game .

[Envisioned]

31. gotcha

sorry, I misunderstood what you were implying.

Absolutely, it's totally fair game.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. nope

no they weren't forged and CBS did not say they were.

[Envisioned]

17. you're a little behind here...

but that's ok. I already conceded that I chose my words poorly.

See the rest of the posts for the continuation of the argument.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oldsneakers]

103. FORGED?

When did CBS admit they were FORGED? They didn't and I still don't believe they were. CBS just didn't have the guts to defend them.

[JI7]

13. isn't that the truth

the same with the swift boat idiots . anytime they accuse kerry of something there are a bunch of posts "did kerry really _____".

james carville gets it. i notice he didn't give the satisfaction of trying to explain every stupid shit the right wing puts out. it makes them and the reporters who bring it up look like fools. joe lockhart is good at this also. instead they point out the stupidity of bringing up such a thing and go into the real important issues that matter.

[unfrigginreal]

18. The *really* interesting thing about it is that

the stories are starting to appear here *before* they hit Drudge. I was reading about Kerry's tan here for 2 days before it hit Drudge. It looks like DU has hit the top of the list of Rove disinformation outlets.

I was surprised by one of the "tan" story DU perps but not the other.

[cthrumatrix]

27. you know a dark tan can inhibit blood flow....Fox told me

[Catt03]

47. Why post right wing garbage on this board?

Personally, I think it is time to stop the need to get attention with repetitive negative Kerry posts. At this point, we have heard it all and it is harmful to getting Kerry elected.

Maybe we need a "I Want Attention" thread where the mods can stick this stuff.

[Dookus]

48. and you responded to MY original post because....????

[Envisioned]

56. Sorry...

I wasn't intending to have this turn into an Anti-Kerry thread. I was trying to point out the inherent flaw in using the CBS documents as supporting evidence, NOT attack the Democratic Candidate for the Presidency.

For some reason some people decided this needed to be a fight.

[Dookus]

58. There is absolutely NO evidence

that the CBS documents are forgeries. NONE.

[acmavm]

49. Verifiable, unverifiable, who cares? That is not the point (which it seems

is getting buried in this whole mess). The contents of the documents were TRUE. They state exactly what was going on with Commander Bunnypants at that time.

Now they find one where he 'resigns'. Like that's just an ordinary everyday event. And another funny thing about that was that all the bush* documents were ordered released by a judge a couple of weeks ago. Now another one just happens to show up. And one that really makes no sense. I've never heard of anyone being able to resign from military service of any kind due to 'lack of time' to fulfill their obligations. That's nuts.

Focus on the truth of the information, people. They very well could be real. One was called 'CYA'. Sounds like something a person would write if they had to deal with the BFEE.

If Burkett was used, then we know who used him. That's even worse. This government was never intended to be run by thugs, liars, and thieves. Which is what we have now.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

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[JI7]

68. Bush suffers from lack of integrity

on so many issues from forged iraq niger uranium documents. to his later excuses for why he went to war. and that doesn't even include all the other issues where he has lied in domestic and foreign area.

[Envisioned]

74. so what you're saying...

is that what's good for Bush is good for Kerry and company?

How does THAT work?

If you're going to criticize Bush for a lack of integrity, wouldn't you want Kerry, and everyone supporting Kerry, to be BETTER than Bush?

[JI7]

75. Kerry and his supporters ARE better than Bush and his supporters

kerry and his supporters don't need to lie and make up shit as the bush people do.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

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[JI7]

78. odd that you don't think it matters that Bush lied about war

and instead spew forth an attack on Kerry.

[Envisioned]

80. I never said anything about it.

When did I say I didn't think it mattered?

What I see here are people who WANT to fight. You're projecting. I haven't said anything about Bush lying about the war, and yet you're accusing me of that.

I also haven't attacked Kerry. You obviously WANT me to attack Kerry, which I am not going to do.

[JI7]

81. you did say it doesn't matter after i posted about Bush's lies

and then put forth a negative spew about kerry.

[Envisioned]

82. what I said...

was that it doesn't matter if Kerry is 100% honest because at the moment that is not what people are perceiving. My following statement was not a negative spew about Kerry. It was an observation that people are concerned because of the coverage that is being displayed and the fact that said coverage is hindering Kerry's ability to show himself as an honest, straight shooting man.

How is that an attack on Kerry?

[JI7]

87. because you took issue with me being critical of Bush

and then went on to put forth a negative spew on kerry.

[Envisioned]

89. Nice try,

but no.

Through this entire thread my beef has been with CBS, not Kerry. I'm fairly confident that if I had been attacking Kerry that a Moderator would have either deleted my posts or told me to stop.

Since I've maintained my stance on the CBS matter, and have not attacked Kerry, your argument is invalid.

And it's getting to be time for breakfast. I may come back to watch you thrash around in the hopes of finding something else to accuse me of, but so far I'm really not impressed.

[JI7]

92. i said Bush lacks integrity and you took issue with it

and said it didn't matter. and then put forth a negative spew on kerry.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Envisioned]

91. I recognize the style of your posts too

and I've seen dozens of people who post like you. And dozens who write like me. etc etc.

Not a valid argument.

I haven't broken any rules, and I haven't been critical of Kerry. You people need to quit accusing me of that, because I haven't done it.

Just because your opinion is being challenged doesn't make me your enemy. Get over it.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cats Against Frist]

90. But

Bush is a total dumb asshole. Anyone who can't see that is DELUSIONAL -- which would be the religious right -- but come on, seriously, how sheltered do you have to be NOT to know that he's a pretty dumb president, he's in it to the gills with the oil industry, suddenly there's more need to "classify" many more things than there have been, in the past, he's smug, he's arrogant, his Ranch persona is fake, his family is dirty, he's a draft dodger -- and probably AWOL, he did nothing with his life his whole first forty years alive, he's TOTALLY for a big, intrusive federal government, and his campaigns are full of dishonest, dirty tricks, lies, gimmicks, smears, ridicule, and anything else that keeps the limelight off his failed policies and corpo-fascist loyalties.

Really -- how dumb do you have to be NOT to see this? Forty percent of the plebeians still think SADDAM was responsible for 9-11. No amount of fact will EVER break through to these people -- their perception is off, because they're either stupid or mean.

[sendero]

97. True........

... but it is the right wing lying noise machine echo chamber that causes that perception. They literally make shit up, day after day, and Fox and CNN spout their lies with a straight face.

That's why when someone comes here and makes a completely false claim, and inflammatory claim, about documents or whatever, out initial reaction is "here's another previcaricating, mendacious wingnut monkey coming here to spread more wingnut lies.

Frankly, you've said nothing in this thread to dissuade me that you aren't one of those people. They all sound the same. "Sure the right cheats but don't WE have to be perfect?" No. Fuck that shit, we are done with it.

So hey, if you are a Dem supporter you better get with the program. We are not playing by the "Christian" right's "do as we say not as we do" rules any more. And for all the people who think we should be Polly Purebred to the right's scum-sucking behavior, y'all can pack sand.

[Dookus]

77. are you still here?

odd...

[saracat]

83. Why don't you ever mention that the signature

on the documents has not been disputed? Why would anyone sign forged documents? And if copies are signed can they be considered forged or are they merely signed copies?

[Envisioned]

85. the possibility exists that....

the signature may have been forged. Why would I mention the signature on potentially forged documents? "Forged Document" implies that the entirety of the document, including signature, was forged.

As I said, I'm not sure, but the possiblity remains. Had you considered that?

[saracat]

96. no because it hasn't been questioned. The signature had been authenticated

The body of the letter but not the content are suspect. have you considered that there is no reason for someone such as Dan Rather to submit forged docs?

[saracat]

84. None of his supporters question his integrity.

Only the opposition does that.What are you saying?

[Envisioned]

86. that's the point....

Great, so you've established that the people who believe Kerry...believe Kerry. Nicely done.

But in this election, the point is to get people who don't already support him to START supporting him

I'm not sure if you're aware, but that's how elections are won.

[saracat]

93. "doubt about integrity is the last thing a presidential candidate

wants his SUPPORTERS to be suffering" That is your quote.You said nothing about people who don't already support him. Please refrain from treating other posters as stupid. None of us need lectures on how candidates get elected. you may not be "aware" that some of us have done this for a living and don't appreciate the sarcasm directed at them. That being said, we do appreciate well directed sarcasm, but it must be well done!

[geek tragedy]

98. Three questions:

1. Do you believe that John Kerry is an honest man?

2. Do you believe that George W. Bush is an honest man?

3. Are you going to vote for John Kerry?

Yes or no should do.

[IdaBriggs]

95. That's funny, Brian! Welcome to DU!

"It also calls into question the integrity of anyone who has stated the same information contained in the documents." -- that's a direct quote from you, by the way.

The same information is contained in the OFFICIAL TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD DOCUMENTS RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE, which is why everyone believed the CBS documents. It was just confirmation.

I'm making an assumption that you are Brian. If you aren't, my apologies. If I'm correct, I am highly amused, and still waiting for your apology.

[lojasmo]

64. LOL Really?

I guess I don't waste my time reading through nonsense posts. Perhaps those who do so are the real tools.

[Dookus]

66. really?

You think reading something makes someone a right-wing tool?

what a silly position.

[OutInTheBack40]

99. I guess it takes one to know one

My best tool is my PHD and I know how to use.

[DancingBear]

102. To whom it may concern - "I can see for miles and miles..."

We really can see through you, you know.

You're skating around the rules and wrapping yourself up in what purports to be "civilized dialogue", but you trip up far too often to be believed.

Please go back to the bog now - we have a simian to embarass later on this evening and we need to get ready to celebrate.

[Moderator]

107. Locking.....

This is flamebait.

I would like to remind everyone that DU rules
require that all discussions must be held in
a civil manner, without personal attacks and
without calling someone a freeper.


Thank you.

DU Moderator